DC-DC Charger Programming with AC Charger Included in System (Orion XS)

[Serene]

Installed an Orion XS today to charge from AGM main engine start battery (alternator charged) to LiFePo4 house, but I also have an AC charger (Xantrex) to charge the start batteries, separate to the Quattro inverter/charger used to charge house. The Xantrex charger is used when on shorepower or generator to ensure start batteries (main engine and generator) are charged.

But, today when testing the new Orion XS I discovered something I hadn't considered and am wondering if anybody has advice on the best way to solve;

1. Main engine running, alternator charging start battery, voltage increase on start battery, initiates DC-DC charging to house. (expected behaviour)
2. Main engine stops, alternator stops, voltage on start battery falls back to float and DC-DC charging stops. (expected behaviour)

But, when the engine is not running, shorepower is disconnected and generator not running, the Quattro is inverting, powering the start battery charger, lifting start battery voltage and initating DC-DC charging, creating a loop.

So thought is to move the start battery charger to the AC2 output on the Quattro so when inverting it is not powered.

But, when I start the generator or connect to shorepower, AC2 becomes active and lifts start battery voltage and thus the DC-DC initiates charging again, when the Quattro is already charging house.

I really just want the DC-DC charging in effect when the main engine is running. So considered wiring the High terminal on the Orion to ignition, which wakes up the Orion, but when the ignition is off, the behaviour reverts to as above.

Need to think through the options, but hoping somebody else has already dealt with this situation and can provide some pointers.

 

[O C Diver]

If it were me, I would have the alternator feeding the house bank. When the house bank increases voltage, the DC to DC charger recharges the start battery. Any time shorepower or generator raise the voltage of the house bank, the DC to DC charger makes sure the start battery is topped off.

Ted

 

[Iggy]

I am NOT good in writing. But here it goes.....

I basically have the the same setup. Well... On shore power my Maxum charger does the Li house bank alone. Than my Alt chargers the the stating and thruster bank, house using a DC to DC charger. Than I have a small 30A Victron charger for the starting and thruster when on shore power. The DC to DC chargers are setup to run only when the engine is running to prevent that loop you mentioned. So far after 4 yrs, no problems.

Since Li can't be used for starting or for thrusters (unless your bank is that big) the Alt's regulator is always producing power for the AGM banks since there first in line. In other words, if the Alt was charging the Li bank first than the DC to DC charger for the AGMs. The Alt would not charge the AGM banks until the Li bank's voltage dropped to turn the Alt on.

Thats my understanding on how Li/life04 works. So my Maxum charger has a low voltage point setting. When the charger sees that, the charger turns on. When the batteries hit the the high point voltage, the charger turns off. So no float charge. Between those two voltages, no charging. If the ALt charged the house bank first, that the Reg would need to do the same thing and no charging to the AGM banks too.

For me, I always know my AGMs (I hope) are fully charged. Not waiting on the house bank. But thats me...

 

[drewread]

I really just want the DC-DC charging in effect when the main engine is running. So considered wiring the High terminal on the Orion to ignition, which wakes up the Orion, but when the ignition is off, the behaviour reverts to as above.

You are on the right track.

There is a diagram and instructions in the Orion XS manual and I ended up getting mine to work exactly this way earlier this spring. I don't remember exactly what I did to get it working on only engine run, but I believe I had to remove the in place jumper and wire only to the high input sense. There was maybe a thing or two to change in software as well (completely disable voltage sense/auto charging I think?)

Mine is all tucked away for winter or I'd check what I had done next time I was at the vessel for you.

 

[Serene]

You are on the right track.

There is a diagram and instructions in the Orion XS manual and I ended up getting mine to work exactly this way earlier this spring. I don't remember exactly what I did to get it working on only engine run, but I believe I had to remove the in place jumper and wire only to the high input sense. There was maybe a thing or two to change in software as well (completely disable voltage sense/auto charging I think?)

Mine is all tucked away for winter or I'd check what I had done next time I was at the vessel for you.

Actually, I think this might be the answer. I just re-read the manual and checked the Orion settings in Victron Connect and the "engine shutdown detection" settings can be disabled. Then by wiring the ignition to the H pin, the charger wakes up when the ignition is on, then when ignition is off it goes to sleep. With engine shutdown detection disabled, it will never operate even if the start battery is being charged via the Xantrex.

Hopefully this works.

 

[Frosty]

FWIW, I think @drewread has it. I do not have a setup exactly like yours -- I have the Orion XS but no Quattro -- but I had to get familiar with those high/low pins because I wanted to set up two things to happen there. (One was for my BMS to shut it off if warranted; the other was for "start working when engine is running.")

The part that had me reading, re-reading, and tearing my hair was the Engine Shutdown Detection settings. Ha ha, now I'm having flashbacks.

 

[drewread]

The part that had me reading, re-reading, and tearing my hair was the Engine Shutdown Detection settings. Ha ha, now I'm having flashbacks.

Yes, I think the part I stumbled over while I le reading the instructions is that you aren't using "automatic" start detection (can't remember the specific wording.... ) but are actually using a manual start via the high trigger input.

I had a relatively convenient oil pressure sensor that triggers my hour meters and I used that to trigger the high sense.

 

[Frosty]

Just a side note, but I didn't have any "easy" way to see the voltage on my start battery. I have a BMV (battery monitor) but you have to choose between temperature monitoring and second battery voltage monitoring and I used the temp monitoring.

I mean, not that it was a big deal. I can always check it with my meter, and/or I could have bought an inexpensive voltage monitor and hooked that up. Plus it's not like it fluctuates like a house bank.

BUT, I discovered that the Victron Connect (bluetooth app) for the Orion XS shows the start battery voltage (whether the Orion is on or off). So that's taken care of.

 

[SteveK]

Your inverter has an AC pass through feature which allows shore & GEN power to go directly to the downstream AC circuits. One of those circuits (and maybe more) should only work directly when there is shore/GEN.
The correction is to move the hot and neutral from downstream of the the inverter so it only gets power from shore/GEN.
It is important to have two neutral buss bars to separate circuits that are not downstream from those that should be.
The inverter, when inverting should never power a charger.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have my Orion triggered by the ignition switch. No ignition, no Orion. In my case if the ignition is on and the engine isn’t running there is a bell that’s to loud to ignore so I need not worry about leaving the ignition on by accident.

 

[Frosty]

I just refreshed my memory on the part that confused me. Wiring up for ignition trigger is described in a straightforward way (small wire to H/L terminal -- which one depends on if you ONLY want engine trigger, or if you want both engine and BMS trigger). Okay, fair and square.

The part that confused me was that once you have that ignition wire/startup set up, do you leave engine detection ON or turn it OFF.

The two bits I underlined in green, seemed to contradict each other, at least to my mind.

My plan was to set it up and then test it out to see what would actually happen, but then in the meantime I decided to try pure "turn on and off by voltage" with no wire trigger, and that worked fine so I put the other test on the back burner (not wanting to meddle while I was out cruising since it was working). I don't have any other chargers that would be triggered as the OP does, so I could go either way (ignition or voltage detection).

Site note to the diagram: I have the illustration on the right highlighted because I would need both ignition on/off AND BMS on/off. For people who only need the ignition part of it, it's the left-hand drawing. So it's the two sections I have underlined in green, that felt like contradictions to me. Maybe it's just me.

Hence I had figured I'd do a test to see what actually happens (perhaps this winter).

 

[CharlieO.]

I have engine detection mode on but set the on parameter to just over charger voltage but less than alternator voltage so when I plug into shore power and start battery charger is on it would not enable to engine detection mode. I have a dedicated lithium charger to use on shore power for the house batteries. I also have a manual switch that I use to disconnect the dc/dc charger from the start battery as part of my shutdown procedures.

I do plan on changing it to only come on with the sense wire which I plan on coming off the oil pressure switch that tells my alternator to come online.

 

[drewread]

You want engine detection off... You are using the high input to trigger charging - not voltage (engine detection is simply a voltage level detection. )

 

[Frosty]

I also have a manual switch that I use to disconnect the dc/dc charger from the start battery as part of my shutdown procedures.

I did that too. Not that I don't trust it, but... I just like something super definitive. (It also has another use but that would totally be a tangent.

 

[Frosty]

You want engine detection off... You are using the high input to trigger charging - not voltage (engine detection is simply a voltage level detection. )

I finally decided that's what they were saying (in the upper green-underlined sentence) but.... they could have been clearer IMO. Not just me either as there were a number of threads on it in the Victron forum but no definitive answer that I could find (other than "read the manual").

It obviously makes SENSE that you would shut engine detection off, but.... they wrote it in such a way that it almost made it sound like "sure, use engine detection, but when you turn off the ignition it will still be ON, ha ha!" Obviously that makes no sense.

I fully expected that when I tested it this would be the case (what you said in the quote above), but ..... I was going to test. Put it off this summer as it was working fine using just voltages/engine detection (no ignition wire).

Perhaps they will re-word this in a future manual. I keep downloading the most recent one because, for example, in an earlier manual they showed a wire going to one side of the H/L terminal in the main drawing, and then in the "magnified bubble" they showed the same wire going to the OTHER terminal. Oooops.

At least they do have nice manuals, which I appreciate -- and they update them from time-to-time

 

[tiltrider1]

I have engine detection turned off. My start battery has its own AC charger that I actually leave turned off most of the time.

It’s a left over from my FLA days when I needed a back up house charger in case my inverter/charger failed.

My start batteries do one thing only, start my engines. My car has no external charging source and it always starts, so why wouldn’t my boat start batteries behave the same. Heck, my car runs electronics even when it sits parked, but even after 3 months it starts. My boat can sit for 3 months and it starts.

 

[Jeff F]

If it were me, I would have the alternator feeding the house bank. When the house bank increases voltage, the DC to DC charger recharges the start battery. Any time shorepower or generator raise the voltage of the house bank, the DC to DC charger makes sure the start battery is topped off.

Ted

That's my configuration. It allows me to have a single charger for the start battery, and whenever house bank is charged/charging from any source - alternator, AC charger or solar - the start battery charger is turned on. This is done through the auto detect feature in the charger. It works fine.

I think for the OP turning the auto detect off and using an ignition keyed on/off for the charger makes sense, and is easy to implement.

 

[Frosty]

Agreed. At least for my start battery (AGM) it's the same as yours. It has only one duty, which is to start the engine and run specific engine functions. I don't have a shore charger hooked up to it at all (just the engine alternator).

I do have a multi-purpose spare coil of 10/2 duplex cable which could (among other things) charge the start battery from the house-bank shore charger (with a little finagling). So far, not needed.

 

[Jeff F]

I think for the OP turning the auto detect off and using an ignition keyed on/off for the charger makes sense, and is easy to implement.

Just a further thought - I *think* that one doesn't exclude the other. You could have an ignition switch to turn the charger on/off, but still have voltage thresholds set that might control charger behaviour - say to defer charging until the source battery reaches a certain voltage threshold.

Not sure it's needed with ignition on/off, but there should be lots of flexibility available to get the behaviour you want.

 

[Frosty]

Sorry, I somehow made a duplicate post.

 

[Serene]

I think for the OP turning the auto detect off and using an ignition keyed on/off for the charger makes sense, and is easy to implement.

Yes, this is the conclusion I came to, but as other posters have commented above the manual is slightly confusing. The first sentence underlined in green by @Frosty was what confused me yesterday. I had assumed ignition would activate the Orion, but then would return to engine shutdown detection mode when the ignition is off. But I have now seen in the settings I can disable this feature.

So a simple on when ignition is on and off when ignition is off is all I need. And same as @tiltrider1 I have a loud buzzer for low oil pressure when the ignition is on but the engine is not running.

I was then thinking with this setup, what if the alternator fails, start battery is no longer charging but the Orion is taking power to house, start would eventually be depleted. But looks like the 'input voltage lock-out' setting would take care of this problem.

 

[O C Diver]

I was then thinking with this setup, what if the alternator fails, start battery is no longer charging but the Orion is taking power to house, start would eventually be depleted. But looks like the 'input voltage lock-out' setting would take care of this prproblem.

In my scenario, post #2, when you start the generator, and the inverter charges the house battery, the DC to DC charger automatically charges the start battery.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

I was then thinking with this setup, what if the alternator fails, start battery is no longer charging but the Orion is taking power to house, start would eventually be depleted. But looks like the 'input voltage lock-out' setting would take care of this problem.

Your setup? Yes, that's what I was pointing out. You can set whatever praameters you want to control behaviour once it's turned on.

You have to make a distinction between turning the charger on/off and turning the charge on/off.

 

[Jeff F]

Your setup? Yes, that's what I was pointing out. You can set whatever praameters you want to control behaviour once it's turned on.

You have to make a distinction between turning the charger on/off and turning the charge on/off.

On reflection, there is nothing preventing you from using auto detect as well as ignition on/off. That gives similar function and reduces risk.

 

[Jeff F]

But, when I start the generator or connect to shorepower, AC2 becomes active and lifts start battery voltage and thus the DC-DC initiates charging again, when the Quattro is already charging house.

Rereading. What's the problem with this?

Your net charge rate on house goes up, and start charge does not suffer. I'm trying to see a negative...

 

[Serene]

On reflection, there is nothing preventing you from using auto detect as well as ignition on/off. That gives similar function and reduces risk.

That was my initial thinking too, but having re-read the manual a few times it looks like ignition on wakes up the Orion, then with ignition off, the auto detect then activates when the Xantrex is running, even when inverting, creating the loop.

I need to move the Xantrex to AC2 output (non-inverted) for this to work.

Rereading. What's the problem with this?

Your net charge rate on house goes up, and start charge does not suffer. I'm trying to see a negative...

Nothing wrong with this arrangement if the Xantrex was on the AC2 (non-inverted) output.

 

[Jeff F]

Nothing wrong with this arrangement if the Xantrex was on the AC2 (non-inverted) output.

I'd do that rather that limit the Orion. Use the engine detect and let it rip.

You have it solved, I think. In that you have a firm grasp of the issues and a couple of good solutions.

 

[Jeff F]

That was my initial thinking too, but having re-read the manual a few times it looks like ignition on wakes up the Orion, then with ignition off, the auto detect then activates when the Xantrex is running, even when inverting, creating the loop.

Huh. That's not the case with mine, but I have older models. Even if you don't use the auto function you can set threshold voltage to a high number and get as much protection as you want, I'm sure. That works fine with on/off.

ETA: fine as in satisfying your concern. Not fine with optimizing output or anything like that.

 

[AJ_Toronto]

Tiltrider, I like your thinking, that is how I have set up by starter banks - their job is to just start the engines and serve as buffering points for feeding the DC-DC chargers to the house bank. Just like my car, IN my 20 years of time on the water, I have never needed to worry about cranking my diesel motors. When I was designing my system, I purposefully stayed away from the Quattro for two reasons- too much functionality packed into one box - complexity and single point of failure. I have separate Victron chargers for each bank and a separate Bank for the Lithium House (560 AH), 2000 CCA. This house if really needed starts up the 8.3L diesels with no hassles. Everything is monitored and if I lose a box or two in an offshore crossing, I do not lose sleep, my beer fridge keeps on humming and I do not have to panic about spares. Also as I posted on another link, My critical DC loads - Bilge pumps/VHF/Nav are fed by both Alternator driven DC-DC bank and Shore/Gen driven AC-DC Power supplies backed by the Li House bank backed by (Manually switching) Starter banks.