Considering Late 80's Gas Tolly - Concerns

[SeattleWind]

We're in the market for an affordable small cruising boat (30' - 34') to be moored in Lake Washington and taken up to the San Juan's in the Summer. After looking at many Hino powered 3288 Bayliners and not yet finding one in half decent shape, Tollycraft has caught my attention, as the owners seem to take quite good care of their boats. I'm looking at mid-late 80's 30' Sport Cruisers in particular (twin Crusader small blocks with v-drives).

My main concern is gas fires/explosion risk. Of course I will be very mindful when gassing up at the fuel dock and take the usual precautions, but what about the dangers when cruising or just staying on the boat when the engines aren't running? I'm concerned about these old fuel tanks leaking and creating gas vapors in the bilge/engine compartment that could be ignited by a bilge pump running or faulty wiring. Is that a valid concern?

Additionally, can owners chime in about their experience with owning old gas engines with v-drives? We will take it very easy on the boat mechanically and cruise at hull speed 90% of the time.

Should I just searching for the elusive nicely-kept 3288 with Hino's?
Thanks for your insight!

 

[socalrider]

Personally I'd much much rather have a diesel powered boat for the reasons you cite - it's just a much more forgiving fuel for an inboard engine (outboards are another story). There was a guy here who used to post regularly who swore by his gas engined Tolly; I think the consensus is that the risks can be managed but you have to take them seriously and be diligent (no spark sources in the engine compartment, no faulty wiring, proper ventilation, etc.) You'll pay a bit more in fuel but probably a rounding error. You'll also suffer at resale time as they will be tougher to sell no matter how much $$ you put into the boat.

 

[Comodave]

The old fuel tanks are indeed a concern. How much isn’t really possible to determine since even if it was built perfectly, not the usual thing, there is no way to determine how it was maintained throughout its life. Back in the day I was a Qualification Examiner for the CG Aux. Crew members had to actually use a fire extinguisher to put out a fire. We did this at a local fire station. The Chief had a huge pan with water in it on top of which he floated some diesel. He tried for about a half hour to get the diesel to ignite, even used a lit road flare. No success. I told him to add about a half ounce of gas, no way he said too dangerous. Finally he gave in and put a few drops of gas in. Lit a match and threw it at the pan, woosh it went up. This is why I love diesels. When I was a teen ager I watched a 40’ boat come to the gas dock, fuel up, start up and then blow up. It killed 5, seriously injured 4 and 4 weren’t even touched. Made a powerful impression on me.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have never had any issues with gassers as long as the blowers work properly and a modern fume detection system is added.

There are far more gas boats running from Seattle to the San Juans than diesel boats. How many of them do you see blowing up? I see a lot more electrical fires than gas fires.

There is a never ending debate over the value between diesel and gas. Gas boats are cheaper to buy but cost more operate. Diesel boats tie up more of your financial opportunity. Do they save enough in fuel cost to over come this? The answers really depend on how you boat.

Clearly some one who runs 600 hours a year is better off with a diesel. What about some one who runs 50 hours? Probably gas is cheaper.

Gas requires more annual maintenance than diesel but, when diesel needs maintenance its usually very expensive.

A Tolly 34 with Crusaders and Velvet V drives is pretty low maintenance. If you are ok with gas I wouldn't be worried with the combination.

 

[Comodave]

I am not a big fan of V drives due to the shaft log usually being buried below the engine. Don’t know how access is on a Tolly 34 though.

 

[mmullins]

Having just given away my first big gas boat, I would strongly urge you to avoid gas. My 2000 Formula was always kept under cover in fresh water. It developed a significant leak in the port fuel tank. Nobody would touch it. Our only 2 local yards with travel lifts would not let me bring it there. They said if it was diesel it would be not problem. I had the exact same problem 10 years ago with a diesel Californian. I simply transferred the fuel to another tank and took that tank off line. Personally, I will never own another gas boat with below the deck fuel tanks.

 

[TBill36]

2 additional things to consider:

Do you intend to sleep with the generator running? If gas you have CO issues to deal with. Personally, I will never sleep with one. There is also an article about the death of a young boy who acquired CO poisoning by sitting in the back of a boat with the gen running. I think he actually drowned but was apparently a good swimmer and toxicology revealed high CO levels in his blood.

Second, in certain areas (out islands in the Bahamas for instance) the infrastructure is not designed to handle the increased gasoline demand brought on by the multiple outboard boats. They run out by Saturday morning and don't get fuel delivered until Tuesday or Wednesday. The trend is everything is going outboard. Just got back from the Palm Beach boat show. 4 and 5 600 hp Mercs on the back of 50+ cruisers let alone the center console crowd.

I had a gas inboard years ago and no matter what I did I would occasionally get a whiff of gas. I never felt truly at ease.

 

[rslifkin]

A little bit of paranoia goes a long way with a gas boat. Add a fume detector. And before every startup (and after fueling) do your engine / bilge checks BEFORE you turn the blowers on so you have a better chance to smell a tiny hint of a problem. After your checks, turn the blowers on and wait a few minutes before starting. Fuel dock attendants don't usually like me, as I'm there for longer than they'd like after fueling and refuse to rush off the dock no matter how much they complain. Once we're done fueling, I go down and check the engine room as well as around the fuel tanks. Then run the blowers for a few minutes, start the engines, confirm good idle, then it's time to depart.

Also keep a close eye on condition of fuel hoses, and if any are getting old (10+ years) or are of unknown age, just replace them. If you can get a good look at the fuel tanks to confirm they're in good condition that's also a good idea.

Working CO detectors on board are also extra important with gas engines, as they put out more CO than diesels. Also pay attention to airflow at the helm to make sure you're not running into station wagon effect issues (some boats are more prone to it than others). If you start getting whiffs of exhaust smell at the helm, do something to change the airflow around you, don't wait until you start feeling sick. Although the station wagon effect issue happens to diesel boats too, just the smell to immediate health risk ratio is a little bit different.

Basically, if you handle equipment appropriately (ignition protection requirements in engine room and fuel tank spaces) and make sure the fuel system is always in good shape, plus apply a little bit of paranoia to operation, then gas boats are pretty safe. Even the average idiot boater that only turns the blowers on when they remember and never checks anything rarely manages to blow up a boat.

In general, I'd prefer diesels for multiple reasons, but if handled appropriately and they're appropriate power for the boat in question then gas engines aren't a deal breaker. I'd love diesels in our current boat, but I ran the numbers and we'd have to run the boat something like 5000 hours to come out ahead on the cost of a repower.

 

[Portage_Bay]

A Tolly is head and shoulders above a Bayliner of the same vintage in terms of build quality. You've gotten good arguments for and against gas powered boat. I'm in the manage it well and you're going to be fine camp. I will add one more thing. Always use your nose before the blowers. You can detect fumes at a lower concentration than the detectors can.

 

[rslifkin]

Always use your nose before the blowers. You can detect fumes at a lower concentration than the detectors can.

Exactly. The detectors are designed to tell you when the fumes reach something like 20% of the lower explosive limit. But you can smell even very tiny amounts of gas fumes, at least for a few minutes (if you stay around low levels of fumes you will become temporarily nose blind and stop noticing the smell).

 

[Ken E.]

We're in the market for an affordable small cruising boat (30' - 34') to be moored in Lake Washington and taken up to the San Juan's in the Summer. After looking at many Hino powered 3288 Bayliners and not yet finding one in half decent shape, Tollycraft has caught my attention, as the owners seem to take quite good care of their boats. I'm looking at mid-late 80's 30' Sport Cruisers in particular (twin Crusader small blocks with v-drives).

My main concern is gas fires/explosion risk. Of course I will be very mindful when gassing up at the fuel dock and take the usual precautions, but what about the dangers when cruising or just staying on the boat when the engines aren't running? I'm concerned about these old fuel tanks leaking and creating gas vapors in the bilge/engine compartment that could be ignited by a bilge pump running or faulty wiring. Is that a valid concern?

Additionally, can owners chime in about their experience with owning old gas engines with v-drives? We will take it very easy on the boat mechanically and cruise at hull speed 90% of the time.

Should I just searching for the elusive nicely-kept 3288 with Hino's?
Thanks for your insight!

A Tolly is head and shoulders above a Bayliner of the same vintage in terms of build quality. You've gotten good arguments for and against gas powered boat. I'm in the manage it well and you're going to be fine camp. I will add one more thing. Always use your nose before the blowers. You can detect fumes at a lower concentration than the detectors can.

Agree. Build quality on the Tolly is much higher. And gas engines in good repair and maintained wouldn't spook a deal for me if the boat will be lightly used. As stated above, there are still lots of gas Tollys running around in the PNW. Of more concern to me would be the V-drives and their lack of access for maintenance. A friend had a V-drive Tolly and there isn't much room down there.

 

[heysteve]

We once owned a 1984 Tolly 34 Sedan... wonderful boat. It had a down galley, nice size head with separate shower, nice aft cockpit, nice salon, nice flybridge. It had twin 350 Crusaders and aluminum saddle tanks. Engine parts are readily available and cheaper to fix than diesels.

This era boats are 40 years old so they can't be THAT dangerous. Just make sure all the rubber hoses are in good shape (fill, vent and engine) and make sure you have fume sensors in all the bilges (fore, main, aft). If in doubt, hire somebody qualified to inspect the fuel system.

Heating it was a challenge in Portland as we took it out all winter long. Gas heaters aren't really an option. I wound up installing a Wallas heater with a diesel deck fill tank under the salon sofa. Worked great.

As said above, a little paranoia goes a long way. I wouldn't hesitate to own another IF it's been well maintained.

 

[Kaniksu]

Former Tolly owner here. Many Tollys for sale have had their tanks replaced whether stated or not in the listings. I would simply narrow my search to boats with replaced tanks and receipts for the work.

 

[ancora]

When the suits took over Tolley, they started cutting quality. Some of the 30 foot Tolleys lost a frame towards the bow that caused problems.

 

[SteveK]

@rslifkin

Fuel dock attendants don't usually like me, as I'm there for longer than they'd like after fueling and refuse to rush off the dock no matter how much they complain.

Tell them the trans are in neutral, keys in the ignition, hop aboard and turn the key to start the engines. Slowly walk away.

 

[JackConnick]

I had an old Atomic 4 in my sailboat and used it for nearly 25 years without major incidents. Changing the points to a magnetic ignition makes a huge difference as does a big robust coil. But you still have to clean carbs, change spark plugs and adjust timing, etc. at least once a year, maybe more.
That engine has an updraft carb, if it gets dirt in it it can flood and drip gas into the bilge. Twice I can down to a few quarts of gas int he bilge and its dangerous and a PITA to clean up. Turn off the gas when you leave the boat!

 

[Comodave]

When I was in high school my family bought a new 31’ Carver. After the first winter I was out with some friends and we stopped to refuel. After a while I realized that it was taking more fuel than I expected. Checked the bilge and gas was overflowing and running into the bilge. The sender for the fuel gauge came loose because Carver put in 1 screw of the correct length and 4 shorter ones. So the sender was quite loose. I guess that the gasket held for the first summer but over the winter with the freezing it came loose. Now what you would normally expect. So now I am at the fuel dock with probably 15 gallons of gas in the bilge. The gas dock attendant says turn on the blower and start it up, yeah right. We cleaned for about 4 or 5 hours until I thought it was all gone but none of us could smell anything anymore due to the gas fumes we had been inhaling. The attendant was very pissed at me and kept insisting that I start the boat until I handed him the keys and told him to go ahead while I went up on shore. I finally did try to start the engines and it turned out ok but it was the longest time of my life when I actually turned the key…

 

[SeattleWind]

Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences everyone, much appreciated!

 

[BruceK]

You might be ok, fuel injection has removed some risk points of gas engines, but avoid if you can.
I had professional involvement in an exploding gas boat on Sydney Harbour. Horrible injuries, a dead baby, lives ruined healthwise and financially. All 4 limbs fractured in 2 people, embedded fragments causing weeping sinuses.
On the plus side, years ago during a car rally, one night in a rural town stopped overnight, we pulled the leaking fractured extra gas tank for welding. Only one guy would touch it, while we manned his gas station,and it didn`t explode. You can be lucky.

 

[garyj4101]

We're in the market for an affordable small cruising boat (30' - 34') to be moored in Lake Washington and taken up to the San Juan's in the Summer. After looking at many Hino powered 3288 Bayliners and not yet finding one in half decent shape, Tollycraft has caught my attention, as the owners seem to take quite good care of their boats. I'm looking at mid-late 80's 30' Sport Cruisers in particular (twin Crusader small blocks with v-drives).

My main concern is gas fires/explosion risk. Of course I will be very mindful when gassing up at the fuel dock and take the usual precautions, but what about the dangers when cruising or just staying on the boat when the engines aren't running? I'm concerned about these old fuel tanks leaking and creating gas vapors in the bilge/engine compartment that could be ignited by a bilge pump running or faulty wiring. Is that a valid concern?

Additionally, can owners chime in about their experience with owning old gas engines with v-drives? We will take it very easy on the boat mechanically and cruise at hull speed 90% of the time.

Should I just searching for the elusive nicely-kept 3288 with Hino's?
Thanks for your insight!

I have cruised and did maintenance on a couple older Tolly's in AK, well built boat. Are the the engines closed or raw water cooled?
Additionally, I've seen two boats go boom after refueling. Not a pretty sight, there are many factors involved, fuel lines, gaskets leaking, overflow, etc. Gasoline is heavier than air and it sits in the enclosed bilge waiting for and source of ignition, be CAREFUL and diligent.

 

[mvweebles]

Total cost of ownership (TCO) is <purchase price> + <improvements> + <transaction costs> - <resale price> Where:

• "Improvements" means cost to upgrade or improve, not repairs or maintenance.
• "Transaction costs" means holding costs while reselling which could be significantly higher for gas due to limited market.

Where I'm going with this is it may be a decent TCO/Business Case to buy a diesel Bayliner with diesels and upgrade the old stuff than to buy a gasser that may have $0 residual value.

Peter

 

[heysteve]

Tolly's will probably always have decent resale value in the PNW due to their excellent reputation. And since they were built in an era of cheap gas, most of them under 40 feet are gassers.

Another consideration is that the range of gassers is typically smaller than diesel boats (given the same tankage) due largely to diesel fuels higher energy density. This is really more of an inconvenience and for the usage the OP describes probably not an issue.

 

[rslifkin]

Total cost of ownership (TCO) is <purchase price> + <improvements> + <transaction costs> - <resale price> Where:

• "Improvements" means cost to upgrade or improve, not repairs or maintenance.
• "Transaction costs" means holding costs while reselling which could be significantly higher for gas due to limited market.

Where I'm going with this is it may be a decent TCO/Business Case to buy a diesel Bayliner with diesels and upgrade the old stuff than to buy a gasser that may have $0 residual value.

Peter

That's definitely a good line of thinking. But at the same time, many 40 year old gas boats are already so thoroughly depreciated that it's unlikely to be worth much less a few years from now.

 

[friz]

"......................My main concern is gas fires/explosion risk................................"

I have '73 trailer trawler w a Ford 302. I would prefer it a diesel but it is what it is. Gas engines have been inboard for over 100 years. I suggest you just be aware of the hazards and act accordingly. You do have a bit of a "chicken little" outlook. Relax.

 

[mmullins]

 

[tiltrider1]

That’s what I call fear mongering. We don’t know if that was a gas fire or a propane fire. It was an outboard engine boat which is 10x more common here in the US. Next you will tell me not to drive a car because the Pinto once exploded when rear ended.

 

[mmullins]

That’s what I call fear mongering. We don’t know if that was a gas fire or a propane fire. It was an outboard engine boat which is 10x more common here in the US. Next you will tell me not to drive a car because the Pinto once exploded when rear ended.

It's interesting that you say with confidence that it's an outboard engine boat when you can't see the transom in the video. Looks like your typical sterndrive Sea Ray type boat to me. And don't preach to me about Pintos, I drove a Corvair! LOL!

 

[sean9c]

Sure gasoline is explosive. We all manage to drive around in gasoline powered cars without blowing ourselves up. Do proper maintenance and use common sense.

 

[tiltrider1]

It's interesting that you say with confidence that it's an outboard engine boat when you can't see the transom in the video. Looks like your typical sterndrive Sea Ray type boat to me. And don't preach to me about Pintos, I drove a Corvair! LOL!

Look at the video of the burned out remains. There is an outboard sitting on the transom.

 

[mmullins]

I agree that the fears of gas boats are overblown. David Pascoe actually has an excellent article on gas vs. diesels concluding just that point. But, forgive me if this topic hits a little too close to home. If you refer to post #6, I literally just GAVE away a gas boat with a leaking fuel tank because no yard would allow it on their property. They all said, if it was diesel it wouldn't be a problem. Now whether their fears are unfounded is of no consequence. They wouldn't allow my boat in their yards. Furthermore, Sea Tow wouldn't even tow it until all traces of the gas and accompanying fumes were removed from the boat for fear of an explosion. For inquiring minds, there was about 30 gallons of gas in the bilge, 100 gallons in the leaking tank and another 150 gallons in the other tank.