Comfort at sea Vs Comfort at the dock or anchor.

[ksanders]

I had a wonderful discussion with a friend last night about the tradeoffs of comfort at sea vs comfort at the dock or at anchor.

My boat a Bayliner 4788, clearly prioritizes comfort at rest over comfort at sea.
With it's full width cabin, and beamy hull design there are easier boats to dock, and there are more comfortable boats in rough seas.

This is all the more real to me since I just completed my 2nd Baja Bash in this boat, and like the first time, this was not a pleasant journey up the Baja Peninsula.
We faced winds and waves in our face the whole 683 NM from cabo to ensenada. The average wind we faced was around 15 knots, and the average waves were around 6'.

But... we made it just fine and now starts the discussion of Comfort at Sea Vs Comfort at rest.

Here is how I think about it, and I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

The Baja Bash is one extreme, similar to the Gulf of Alaska. It is a long way of open water with few places to hide, and stiff winds being the normal vs being the exception.
But... This is only a small part of cruising. For example, all up and down the pacific coast from Alaska to Mexico there are harbors, or protected anchorages close enough together to make long distance open ocean travel a non necessity. Yes you can choose to go from San Diego to Cape Flattery in one or two hops, but you do not need to.

We are doing just that. We are harbor hopping up the coast this season, just like I harbor hopped down the coast three years ago. During the one day a week we are traveling I'll pick a nice day and have smooth sailing.

To me, choosing a boat that prioritizes comfort at rest is a good decision. My friends have a 42 Tyana sailboat, by any measure a world class passagemaker. The exact opposite of my Bayliner.

In the long run which of us, on the same journey, on the same cruising grounds is more comfortable??? Obviously the Bayliner, but... I cannot cross oceans. But... on multi day passages they are more comfortable.

But... How often do you really do that? My sailboat friends have been tied to the same dock as me for three years now. They have explored the same places in the Sea of Cortez. It's like they have a ferarri that needs to abide by the speed limits, while i have a surban with all it's room, enjoying the sights.

What are your opinions?

 

[psneeld]

......deleted due to boring content...

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ks. Yep. Horses for courses. One can pretty well cruise ANY water with almost ANY boat IF conditions are suitable. Issues can and do occur when the vessel is pushed beyond her design parameters.

 

[Portage_Bay]

To me, choosing a boat that prioritizes comfort at rest is a good decision.

I agree. We are interested in comfort at rest above comfort at sea or sea keeping abilities. In retirement we have the option to wait out the weather, no schedules driving our go/no go decisions. She has had her share of rough weather years before we met. I worked on the water and don't care to be out on rough water anymore. Ours is a Westbay 4500 very similar characteristics to your Bayliner. Roomy interior spaces. Not the easiest to dock. A rough ride in seas. We don't care. Use the bow thruster and twins when docking. We avoid rough weather.

It's tempting to want a boat that can really handle it all and go places without concerns. But when we thought about our cruising goals, that isn't what we wanted to do. The Westbay is what we wanted.

Our previous boat was a Californian 42 LRC. Another boat not suited to rough open water. However when we bought that boat it seemed side decks were important for ease of line handling. Now we realize that a powerful bow thruster negates the need of side decks for ease of line handling. The extra interior space with a wide body layout is great.

It comes down to evaluating cruising goals. We will almost always stay in protected water. Usually run about 4 hrs a day and not run every day. An occasional longer day to make some distance. That puts at 20 to 44 hrs at rest before the next move, 4 to 8 hrs underway and a few minutes docking or anchoring. Comfort at rest is important.

I admire you taking your Bayliner down the coast and back up again. Well done! And you have proven that a boat that prioritizes comfort at rest can make the journey.

 

[SteveK]

Comfort at rest and underway has become the mantra.
Been there, done that for rough passage. No longer care for the rough rides that were once a thrill, a right of passage. We have become fair weather boaters away from the docks and between anchorages.
Retiring soon and this year will see extended cruising days into weeks, maybe months. Admiral and I are looking forward to unrestricted boating.
But, I am wondering if this too will become been there, done that as getting old is now getting in the way. Sold the Harley 3 years ago, time flies by.

 

[sean9c]

Didn't Beebe comment that his Passagemaker was comfortable at sea but not at the dock? I think he attempted to remedy that in later designs

 

[ksanders]

...
But, I am wondering if this too will become been there, done that as getting old is now getting in the way. Sold the Harley 3 years ago, time flies by.

At some point most cruisers seem to gravitate to a harbor/marina where they feel comfortable, vs always on the move.

When Vicky and I complete our current adventure in the fall of 2027 we will need to look realistically at what we want to do. We are thinking that unless we are driven to move the boat to the east coast for some reason, we will probably settle in the Ensenada/San Diego areas and the boat will become more of a 2nd home to escape the brutal La Paz summer temperatures, vs an adventure platform.

But... as you know a cruisers plans are written in sand at low tide, so who knows... We could for example fall in love with the PACNW and never bring the boat south again... you never know.

 

[Don L]

For the most part the only reason to have a sailboat is that you like to sail. But with time and age most sailors get to point when that's not enough for what is involved or they just can not do it anymore.

 

[SteveK]

I gave up sailing when one day when under sail with 15-25 knot winds, being the only soul on board that dared to leave the cockpit to go forward I noticed my steps were not in tune with the boat. My knees were locked instead of elastic, steps landed hard.

 

[Nick14]

There’s no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ to this question. The answer is, it depends. It depends on your own individual use, where and how you use a boat. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

I’ll take a contrarian view (as I often do). For my own personal use and my waters, I absolutely choose comfort at sea over at the dock. But that’s my own personal priority.

No one chooses to go out in bad weather. Neither do I. It’s not a question of what you choose to go out in, but what you might get caught out in. Weather and sea conditions can change quickly on or near the coast, especially in the northeast. Sometimes even the best weather forecasts can get surprised by a summer squall, or a severe thunderstorm or Nor’ easter ripping through.

I’ve often heard people say ‘the boat can always take more than you can.’ I’ll respectfully disagree. Depending on the boat of course, it can usually take more than you can. But not necessarily always.

In my past 25 years of boating (I’ll leave out my first 30 years because I think boats under 26 ft can more often get caught in conditions beyond their capabilities), three times I’ve found myself in conditions beyond what I thought the boat could reasonably handle. It was deeply scary each time , and made an indelible impression on me (and on my pants ). Two of those times were in the same boat and got me deeply questioning my choices and led me to sell it for something different.

Many people think about the 95% of the time when things are great. Good weather and nice sea conditions, or at anchor or tied up to the dock, and pick a boat that optimizes that experience. I’m the opposite. To me a boat is something meant to safely carry my wife and myself through any weather and sea conditions we’re likely to encounter. It’s not my living room. If I want maximal interior space I’ll stay home or sit on my patio.

I think about the 5% of the time when things go pear-shaped, because the downside of being in conditions that exceed a boat’s ability to handle can be significant. The downside of being at the dock in a boat optimized for sea comfort is a cabin that might be a little smaller in comparison.

I always listen to the Admiral. Early on she said the most important thing for her in a boat is to feel safe. She’s a very wise person.

It's strictly my personal choice but I’d rather trade off a slightly smaller cabin in exchange for a boat with a greater margin of safety if (or when…) I’m caught out in unpleasant weather or nasty sea conditions. It’s also easier for me because it’s almost always been just the Admiral and myself, never any family and only occasionally a couple of guests for short day rides. We don’t need cavernous ballroom interior spaces.

Much depends on where a boat is used. If on a land-locked lake or inland river where you’re unlikely to encounter anything worse than the wake from a passing barge, there’s not much need to worry about comfort at sea. But strictly for myself, if I’m going out on the ocean or a body of water connected to it (like many east coast bays) I’ll only do it in a boat that maximizes seaworthiness.

As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[slowgoesit]

Kevin, I look at it a lot like I did RV's. There is a perennial discussion of which is better, a gasoline RV, or a diesel pusher. Lots of reasons for both, but the bottom line is that once it is parked, they are all the same.

On a boat, for me, what it boils down to is this:
Is your really comfortable at the dock boat, UNSAFE bashing upwind on the Northerly trip? Or is it just UNCOMFORTABLE? Especially with the chocks you installed, I think the answer to that question, is that it is Uncomfortable, but NOT unsafe.
If that is the case, then you look at just what you alluded to above. By and large most of your time on a boat is spent either on a dock, or at anchor. For that, the larger salon, big galley, larger cockpit area, etc really come into their own. LOTS of space to hang out. LOTS more comfortable with friends over for Sundowners. Space that is not needed for the cruising, but even there, in calmer weather, the extra space is nice while moving as well.
The down size of all that room, is that with all that open space, there are less places to hide when Vicki comes after you with the frying pan!

 

[slowgoesit]

Didn't Beebe comment that his Passagemaker was comfortable at sea but not at the dock? I think he attempted to remedy that in later designs

Sean, I can't comment on his earlier boats, but ours started as Beebe design # 96. Construction started in 1978, and completed as design # 118 when she was launched in 1982, and she is REALLY comfortable at the dock, at anchor, or underway. she's not too shabby in rough weather either.
Last April we completed most of the "Great U", going from PNW to Alaska, then down the West Coast, through the Panama Canal, and to our (and our boat's) new home in Florida. The rest of the Great U will probably be next year after the Florida Keys, and the Bahamas. We got into some Wx on the trip that was uncomfortable, but in no way unsafe, but it was Wx that I would not have liked to have done in a less seaworthy boat.

 

[psneeld]

I see it 4 ways.

People with dreams that actually follow them. They need to consider the boat that can match those dreams safely.

People with constraints that will never be able to follow their real dreams so they buy the best boat they can at the time and use the boat wisely within the normal margins of safety/danger.

People who buy boats way in excess of their dreams, but can buy way more boat than what they need to sit at the dock or the typical once around the harbor and summer vacation trip up/down the coast a few miles.

People with or without dreams that have not only little background with boats or even common sense and windup over their heads. They or the boat may or may not survive the horror show, but they are out of boating way sooner than they ever though.

Aw heck, there are probably many variations on those 4 themes but I have broadly thought of boaters in those term (at least as I type this). Let's go back to "it depends"...

 

[ksanders]

Kevin, I look at it a lot like I did RV's. There is a perennial discussion of which is better, a gasoline RV, or a diesel pusher. Lots of reasons for both, but the bottom line is that once it is parked, they are all the same.

On a boat, for me, what it boils down to is this:
Is your really comfortable at the dock boat, UNSAFE bashing upwind on the Northerly trip? Or is it just UNCOMFORTABLE? Especially with the chocks you installed, I think the answer to that question, is that it is Uncomfortable, but NOT unsafe.
If that is the case, then you look at just what you alluded to above. By and large most of your time on a boat is spent either on a dock, or at anchor. For that, the larger salon, big galley, larger cockpit area, etc really come into their own. LOTS of space to hang out. LOTS more comfortable with friends over for Sundowners. Space that is not needed for the cruising, but even there, in calmer weather, the extra space is nice while moving as well.
The down size of all that room, is that with all that open space, there are less places to hide when Vicki comes after you with the frying pan!

You called it correctly Scott.

My boat, pounding into head seas and wind can get uncomfortable. Doing it for a few hours is a thrill. Doing it 24X7 for a week gets tiring.

But... I have never seen anything even close to my boats operational limits. When we came around Cedros this year I clocked 41 knots on my face, minus the 7 I was going. Not planned, but the reality for Cedros. Yes it got uncomfortable. No we did not bury the bow, and we did not go airborne, so it was reasonably uncomfortable but safe.

 

[rslifkin]

I think it depends a bit on your style of travel. If you want to keep moving frequently, not spend a lot of time waiting for weather, and make long passages, comfort while underway starts to matter a lot more. But for many of us that are only making coastal hops and are fine with waiting for better weather, comfort while running in rough seas is less important.

Thinking about our boat, it definitely leans toward the "comfort at dock" side of the tradeoff. I don't really know where the point is when the boat will start to struggle in rough seas, as the "this is miserable" point comfort-wise comes long before the boat is struggling. But for our cruising, that's a perfectly fine tradeoff in my mind. And of course, the shorter the time you'll be in ugly seas, the worse you can tolerate as Ksanders mentioned above.

Steep beam or head seas are the worst-case for us as the bow is relatively full, so pitching can get excessive and unpleasant in a steep head sea. And at low speeds, roll can be significant and snappy in a steep beam sea. But oddly for a planing hull, this boat loves following seas at basically any speed. The same conditions that can be miserable on the bow are perfectly fine and comfy once the seas are far enough aft of the beam (as long as you don't mind a little corkscrewing if going slow).

We've definitely run into our fair share of unexpected weather. In some cases it's been weather building well beyond the forecast that has led to turning around to try again another time. One in particular sticks in my mind though. Running parallel to shore last spring heading home after just being out for the day, maybe 1.5 miles off shore. There was rain in the forecast, but nothing else (and we were expecting to get caught in the rain). But right before we ran into the rain, we got hit with a nasty, short duration squall. Based on how much sea state we built in 5 minutes with maybe 2 miles of fetch (wind was coming almost straight off land) plus the glare shield on my masthead light breaking (and I know that has survived better than 40 kts from the same wind angle) I figure the winds were somewhere solidly north of 40 kts. I don't know for sure though, as the squall was very localized. A few others got hit with it as well, but a wind station 2 miles away didn't and reported that the winds never hit 20 kts. The boat handled fine with 40+ kts and ~2 foot chop quartering off the port bow. My wife and her mom who was with us were far more bothered than I was, as they only had the wind, rain, etc. as a reference. But from my perspective at the helm, it was fine and the boat didn't seem any bit bothered by it.

 

[Moonfish]

Is your really comfortable at the dock boat, UNSAFE bashing upwind on the Northerly trip? Or is it just UNCOMFORTABLE?

THE most important question when deciding which is more important. And as others have already said, totally depends on how, where, and when you plan to use your boat.

Problem is there are a lot of boaters with neither the experience or even the knowledge to ask the question Scott so eloquently posed in the first place.

I've been reminded of that many times over the years. Started back in 2003 when I did a video boat review of the then new Nordic Tug 32+. Now we all know what that boat was designed for. Yet the video got comments such as, "I'd never cross an ocean in that boat!" and "No way that boat would make it across an ocean."

Duh.

 

[cruiserF]

I had a wonderful discussion with a friend last night about the tradeoffs of comfort at sea vs comfort at the dock or at anchor.

My boat a Bayliner 4788, clearly prioritizes comfort at rest over comfort at sea.
With it's full width cabin, and beamy hull design there are easier boats to dock, and there are more comfortable boats in rough seas.

This is all the more real to me since I just completed my 2nd Baja Bash in this boat, and like the first time, this was not a pleasant journey up the Baja Peninsula.
We faced winds and waves in our face the whole 683 NM from cabo to ensenada. The average wind we faced was around 15 knots, and the average waves were around 6'.

But... we made it just fine and now starts the discussion of Comfort at Sea Vs Comfort at rest.

Here is how I think about it, and I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

The Baja Bash is one extreme, similar to the Gulf of Alaska. It is a long way of open water with few places to hide, and stiff winds being the normal vs being the exception.
But... This is only a small part of cruising. For example, all up and down the pacific coast from Alaska to Mexico there are harbors, or protected anchorages close enough together to make long distance open ocean travel a non necessity. Yes you can choose to go from San Diego to Cape Flattery in one or two hops, but you do not need to.

We are doing just that. We are harbor hopping up the coast this season, just like I harbor hopped down the coast three years ago. During the one day a week we are traveling I'll pick a nice day and have smooth sailing.

To me, choosing a boat that prioritizes comfort at rest is a good decision. My friends have a 42 Tyana sailboat, by any measure a world class passagemaker. The exact opposite of my Bayliner.

In the long run which of us, on the same journey, on the same cruising grounds is more comfortable??? Obviously the Bayliner, but... I cannot cross oceans. But... on multi day passages they are more comfortable.

But... How often do you really do that? My sailboat friends have been tied to the same dock as me for three years now. They have explored the same places in the Sea of Cortez. It's like they have a ferarri that needs to abide by the speed limits, while i have a surban with all it's room, enjoying the sights.

What are your opinions?

I had my own highest efficiency 36' Fishcruiser with 13.5 beam and a 270 hp Olds marine I used for chasing Swordfish and Cod and Mackerel along the Nova Scotia coastline between Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. It slept and fed and served 5 plus me? I carrien 500 liters or 125 US Gal gasoline 1978-1992 era. The hull was exceptional in rough weather, and had a speed of 30 Knots but cruised superbly at 15-20K. It was a darling on fuel sipping while cruising. I had no interest in long excursions since all I wanted was within 150 miles.
So for me, while my hull speed was excellent in rough stuff, It was not what I would call something I would want to go long distances. Such a long distance, in my view would be most enjoyable in several stopovers for 1-2 days enjoying the villages and the people who live on the sea.

 

[BVrolyk]

Like so many things: It Depends.

Having done two 10,000+ mile cruises well offshore in my life, we took sailboats. The first trip, we had the wrong boat. But, you go with what you have, not what you wish you have, or you might not ever go. The second trip we could afford to buy the boat we should have had the first time. Much better. So much for background.

The most important bit in "It Depends" is safety. Living in a small town called Santa Cruz, 70 miles south of the Golden Gate Bridge, we wanted a boat that could make the trip safely and easily in almost all weather. The typical summer weather pattern along our coast is 8-12 knots of wind from about mid-night to 1100 hrs, then 18-25 knots of wind from 1400 to 2200 hrs. Seas come here from Alaska and are 8-10 feet high in fair weather and 10-20 feet in poor weather. If we had a powerboat, we couldn't go "fast" agains that breeze and those bumps. So our old Alden Schooner is basically the same speed as a trawler under power.

We make the round trip about 8 times a year. Powering north (typically upwind) at night and sailing (typically downwind) from mid-morning to late afternoon. We've had the cockpit filled with water 6 or 7 times. So, we need a boat that can withstand that. Having delivered friends powerboats down the coast, many of them would not have enjoyed a 20' tall swell with the top blowing off hitting them from astern. Indeed, a few were manifestly unsafe trying to go downwind in those conditions, so we waited for better weather.

The second priority after "Safety" in the "It Depends" is how comfortable is ALL of the crew. My Admiral wasn't a sailor when she bumped into me, and is too short to hang from overhead handrails, so in a power boat with a large cabin she has to crawl on her hands and knees in the weather I described above. She wasn't pleased the first time that happened. In our schooner, she has plenty of handholds at her height.

But, we also have 7 grandkids, and I'm not allowed to terrorize them. My daughters would never forgive me. They feel safe in the schooner, they didn't feel safe in the one power boat ride I gave them (not a trawler).

My Admiral and I are putting our schooner on the market after many years because it's too much to deal with double-handed after a decade of cruising the California coast, and this next boat is "her choice". Of course, she's starting with a specification for the galley and saloon, then working down her list past queen sized berth, and private heads.

The final leg of "It Depends" is that regardless of the specifications, we can't stand an UGLY boat. Obviously, ugly is in the eye of the beholder. But boats are far too expensive to tolerate an ugly one. So, we each get to pick the boat we want to row-away from and want to look at in a photo in our den. Frankly, a gigantic number of the power boats we've looked at have been dismissed immediately because of this. But, we keep looking.

 

[salish]

I had a wonderful discussion with a friend last night about the tradeoffs of comfort at sea vs comfort at the dock or at anchor.

My boat a Bayliner 4788, clearly prioritizes comfort at rest over comfort at sea.
With it's full width cabin, and beamy hull design there are easier boats to dock, and there are more comfortable boats in rough seas.

This is all the more real to me since I just completed my 2nd Baja Bash in this boat, and like the first time, this was not a pleasant journey up the Baja Peninsula.
We faced winds and waves in our face the whole 683 NM from cabo to ensenada. The average wind we faced was around 15 knots, and the average waves were around 6'.

But... we made it just fine and now starts the discussion of Comfort at Sea Vs Comfort at rest.

Here is how I think about it, and I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

The Baja Bash is one extreme, similar to the Gulf of Alaska. It is a long way of open water with few places to hide, and stiff winds being the normal vs being the exception.
But... This is only a small part of cruising. For example, all up and down the pacific coast from Alaska to Mexico there are harbors, or protected anchorages close enough together to make long distance open ocean travel a non necessity. Yes you can choose to go from San Diego to Cape Flattery in one or two hops, but you do not need to.

We are doing just that. We are harbor hopping up the coast this season, just like I harbor hopped down the coast three years ago. During the one day a week we are traveling I'll pick a nice day and have smooth sailing.

To me, choosing a boat that prioritizes comfort at rest is a good decision. My friends have a 42 Tyana sailboat, by any measure a world class passagemaker. The exact opposite of my Bayliner.

In the long run which of us, on the same journey, on the same cruising grounds is more comfortable??? Obviously the Bayliner, but... I cannot cross oceans. But... on multi day passages they are more comfortable.

But... How often do you really do that? My sailboat friends have been tied to the same dock as me for three years now. They have explored the same places in the Sea of Cortez. It's like they have a ferarri that needs to abide by the speed limits, while i have a surban with all it's room, enjoying the sights.

What are your opinions?

Hopefully our new to us N46 will be comfortable at the dock, as well as our annual cruise, Anacortes to Sitka.

 

[Dean Russell]

Having owned a Bayliner I believe the 45/47 is about the best boat for the dollar available and a great boat 75% of the time, at the dock, on the hook or travelling. But as I get older and I am wanting to increase those odds after having a few bad experiences from either bad planning or sudden weather. If you can afford it, the Nordhavn is as close to perfect as you can get if you ignore the inability to exceeded hull speed.

 

[ksanders]

Having owned a Bayliner I believe the 45/47 is about the best boat for the dollar available and a great boat 75% of the time, at the dock, on the hook or travelling. But as I get older and I am wanting to increase those odds after having a few bad experiences from either bad planning or sudden weather. If you can afford it, the Nordhavn is as close to perfect as you can get if you ignore the inability to exceeded hull speed.

Of course, nothing wrong with having a more capable boat!

I would argue that if you are really going to do coastal cruising not ocean crossing, you would be better served in the overall life picture getting the less capable boat you can afford, vs the more capable boat you need to spend another half decade of your finite time sitting in the office to pay for it.

I could have bought the more capable nordhavn I drooled over. But... I would still be sitting in my office at work paying for it. On the other hand I've been retired for three years next month and would not trade that time for all the Nordhavn's in the world.

Nope, I'm not crossing any oceans in my Bayliner. But... I've been from Alaska to Mexico, and am doing it again right now.

 

[Slider70]

As noted it depends on many things. Where will you do most of your boating? Why are you boating (what do you expect to get out of your boating)? Will you be cruising more or at dock/anchoring more? Are you on a fixed time schedule or retired (most important variable of them all)? How much experience do you have boating?

I commercial fished for 28 years. A good sea boat that was worked in most weather was a must (I was at sea up to 21 days per trip). Comfort at anchor or dock not so much.

I am now retired and my boating requirements have completely changed - 180 percent. Sold my commercial vessel and purchased a PLEASURE vessel. Pleasure for me.

 

[Kit_L]

@BVrolyk: ...Of course, she's starting with a specification for the galley and saloon, then working down her list past queen sized berth, and private heads.

Any man who does not take his partner's wishes into the complex equation we call, "the next boat" is doomed to suffering. And as we cook all our food, the galley is very important to me, too. And my wife likes to read in bed, so the cabin has to be big enough for a high enough ceiling for that to be comfortable.

Next (my opinion only, of course) is a big enough holding tank, with all the plumbing in good condition. This morning, for example, I found that our 170 litre (approx. 37 gallons) was full. I fired up the engines and went across the bay to the fuel dock, only to find that their pump out (which I have used a number of times before) was broken today. So, a trip offshore to empty the holding tank. On the next boat, I want a holding tank where its state of fullness is understood – on our boat, we only know it's full when the toilet will not flush...

Seaworthiness is important, but to some extent can be balanced against speed. In a full displacement boat, we would need stabilisation (my wife gets seasick). If in an SD or planing vessel, though, doubling the speed can sometimes make the passage more comfortable (especially in a cat), so this too is something we are factoring in.

 

[captmikem]

If you are like 96% of the people on boats, your boat spends most of the time in harbor so comfort in harbor makes a lot of sense. When you think 15 kts is “stiff winds” you (like most people) have not spent much time at sea. Crossing the Atlantic East to West is one of the easiest and most comfortable passages there is, yet the average Trade Wind is around 20 to 24 kts, in January when the crossing is the best.
Harbor hopping up or down the west coast of the US can expose you to more than “stiff winds”.
Comfort is a relative term. I have been hove to in a gale of wind north of Cape Mendocino and quite comfortable, yet I happened to speak with another boat on the radio who were near me and they would have paid any amount of money they could to be off their boat at that moment if only someone could get them off.

Many people have the idea or dream of cruising to different places and seeing the world, but the reality is when it gets a little rough, they do not want to be out there. That is well and fine, just face the reality and get a boat that is comfortable in harbor, because one that is comfortable at sea is going to feel small and confined.

Just a note, The Gulf of Alaska is nothing like the Baja Bash. Look at a weather chart and you will notice low after low just sucks up into the Gulf of Alaska. I have sailed many miles on many oceans, and I firmly believe the Gulf of Alaska can be one of the roughest passages on this earth.
M

 

[ScottC]

Given our cruising style, it's comfort at the dock for us. Raffaello, our cat, prefers this too .

We have cruised thousands of miles in our boat and have a very good feeling for its capabilities -- and limits (or, at least our limits).

On long trips (2-6 months), we tend to cruise mostly short-ish legs of 3-6 hours in a day, keeping an eye on the weather and delaying planned departures when prudent. We are fortunate enough to be retired, so we have no hesitation about doing this.

Further to this, we always have a "Plan B" and often a "Plan C" port in mind, should weather suddenly come up preventing us from continuing to our planned destination. Thus, we generally have the option of turning around and heading to Port B or Port C in a generally following sea if we get tired of bashing it out.

The fact that most of our cruising is coastal allows us to prioritize comfort at the dock. If we cruised mostly off-shore, I would feel exactly the opposite, however. We've done "off-shore hops" like Sweden to the island of Bornhlm (Denmark), Sicily to Malta and crossing the Adriatic but only with extra-special care and attention to selecting the optimal weather window. This is about the limit of what we would attempt without having a comfort-at-sea boat.

 

[ronobrien]

I had a wonderful discussion with a friend last night about the tradeoffs of comfort at sea vs comfort at the dock or at anchor.

My boat a Bayliner 4788, clearly prioritizes comfort at rest over comfort at sea.
With it's full width cabin, and beamy hull design there are easier boats to dock, and there are more comfortable boats in rough seas.

This is all the more real to me since I just completed my 2nd Baja Bash in this boat, and like the first time, this was not a pleasant journey up the Baja Peninsula.
We faced winds and waves in our face the whole 683 NM from cabo to ensenada. The average wind we faced was around 15 knots, and the average waves were around 6'.

But... we made it just fine and now starts the discussion of Comfort at Sea Vs Comfort at rest.

Here is how I think about it, and I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

The Baja Bash is one extreme, similar to the Gulf of Alaska. It is a long way of open water with few places to hide, and stiff winds being the normal vs being the exception.
But... This is only a small part of cruising. For example, all up and down the pacific coast from Alaska to Mexico there are harbors, or protected anchorages close enough together to make long distance open ocean travel a non necessity. Yes you can choose to go from San Diego to Cape Flattery in one or two hops, but you do not need to.

We are doing just that. We are harbor hopping up the coast this season, just like I harbor hopped down the coast three years ago. During the one day a week we are traveling I'll pick a nice day and have smooth sailing.

To me, choosing a boat that prioritizes comfort at rest is a good decision. My friends have a 42 Tyana sailboat, by any measure a world class passagemaker. The exact opposite of my Bayliner.

In the long run which of us, on the same journey, on the same cruising grounds is more comfortable??? Obviously the Bayliner, but... I cannot cross oceans. But... on multi day passages they are more comfortable.

But... How often do you really do that? My sailboat friends have been tied to the same dock as me for three years now. They have explored the same places in the Sea of Cortez. It's like they have a ferarri that needs to abide by the speed limits, while i have a surban with all it's room, enjoying the sights.

What are your opinions?

This is a thought of mine also. On the east coast and having been a life long sailor, we would run from NE to Norfolk off shore (350 NM+/-) , then down the ICW. The ICW will be easier in the trawler, but the offshore part might be interesting. Obviously people do it, but we didn't have to be (or feel that we had to be) as particular about the weather conditions. We'll see.

 

[Yachts66]

I haven't posted much here because truth be told I've never owned a powerboat except for ski boats. I have thousands of blue water miles under my keel, but all of them have been on sailboats so I've intentionally kept my mouth mostly closed here. I'm here, because I'm actively looking to buy a trawler for the first time in my life become a powerboat guy. Still, I think there is a lot of overlap between powerboats and sailboats, particularly when it comes to comfort at anchor and comfort at sea, so I'm chiming in.

I've lived aboard a lot and thus will always vote for comfort on the hook vs off the hook. I'm also not a huge fan of marinas. Although they certainly have their place, they aren't for me except when needed. I'm happiest on the hook, always have been, and may always be, although that chapter has yet to be written. Although it probably needs more attention as I'm getting long in the tooth, and my time is certainly limited. When I was young and mostly stupid, I yearned for my adrenaline rush and even once sailed through a hurricane on purpose. Yes, stupid is an apt term. While I'm still stupid at times, I try hard not to be, most times, so my sailing through hurricane mode is long behind me. (I hope and pray.) Still, to me, sipping my morning coffee on the hook, listening to the sea birds squawk, and watching the dolphins feed and play around my anchored boat is pure heaven. Sure, it's nice to be in a marina at times, but mostly for me, it's not, so I will usually opt to be on the hook. Since probably 90% of our time is spent not at sea, it's a no-brainer for me to select the boat that offers the most comfort while not venturing from point A to B.

 

[Caballero II]

There’s no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ to this question. The answer is, it depends. It depends on your own individual use, where and how you use a boat. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

I’ll take a contrarian view (as I often do). For my own personal use and my waters, I absolutely choose comfort at sea over at the dock. But that’s my own personal priority.

No one chooses to go out in bad weather. Neither do I. It’s not a question of what you choose to go out in, but what you might get caught out in. Weather and sea conditions can change quickly on or near the coast, especially in the northeast. Sometimes even the best weather forecasts can get surprised by a summer squall, or a severe thunderstorm or Nor’ easter ripping through.

I’ve often heard people say ‘the boat can always take more than you can.’ I’ll respectfully disagree. Depending on the boat of course, it can usually take more than you can. But not necessarily always.

In my past 25 years of boating (I’ll leave out my first 30 years because I think boats under 26 ft can more often get caught in conditions beyond their capabilities), three times I’ve found myself in conditions beyond what I thought the boat could reasonably handle. It was deeply scary each time , and made an indelible impression on me (and on my pants ). Two of those times were in the same boat and got me deeply questioning my choices and led me to sell it for something different.

Many people think about the 95% of the time when things are great. Good weather and nice sea conditions, or at anchor or tied up to the dock, and pick a boat that optimizes that experience. I’m the opposite. To me a boat is something meant to safely carry my wife and myself through any weather and sea conditions we’re likely to encounter. It’s not my living room. If I want maximal interior space I’ll stay home or sit on my patio.

I think about the 5% of the time when things go pear-shaped, because the downside of being in conditions that exceed a boat’s ability to handle can be significant. The downside of being at the dock in a boat optimized for sea comfort is a cabin that might be a little smaller in comparison.

I always listen to the Admiral. Early on she said the most important thing for her in a boat is to feel safe. She’s a very wise person.

It's strictly my personal choice but I’d rather trade off a slightly smaller cabin in exchange for a boat with a greater margin of safety if (or when…) I’m caught out in unpleasant weather or nasty sea conditions. It’s also easier for me because it’s almost always been just the Admiral and myself, never any family and only occasionally a couple of guests for short day rides. We don’t need cavernous ballroom interior spaces.

Much depends on where a boat is used. If on a land-locked lake or inland river where you’re unlikely to encounter anything worse than the wake from a passing barge, there’s not much need to worry about comfort at sea. But strictly for myself, if I’m going out on the ocean or a body of water connected to it (like many east coast bays) I’ll only do it in a boat that maximizes seaworthiness.

As always, your mileage may vary.

I guess I'm kinda with you. I don't mind my docking and seakeeping abilities. This boat can always take more than my crew can, and I don't really don't thirst for a lot more cubic space. Or, if I do, I'd just want a GB 42, with that much more volume inside. I wouldn't give up the side decks or the stability, certainly not a full width cabin plan. We're cozy in our home.

 

[ronobrien]

I guess I'm kinda with you. I don't mind my docking and seakeeping abilities. This boat can always take more than my crew can, and I don't really don't thirst for a lot more cubic space. Or, if I do, I'd just want a GB 42, with that much more volume inside. I wouldn't give up the side decks or the stability, certainly not a full width cabin plan. We're cozy in our home.

I am moving from a lifetime of sail to my GB36 Classic. I had concerns about seaworthiness. Others with trawler experience are telling something that you mentioned, that I would give up before the boat did. That was comforting to hear.