Chinese Junks

[CharlieO.]

Hope you learned something from the 50 benefits . There's tons of lit on them out there. Most guys just arent familiar with them. If fact me and my partners had studied up on them and were about to go with them on the next boat. Then pretty much decided on a kite sail for a hybrid motor boat.

Why not tie off a kite sail to your junk?

 

[psneeld]

Please keep this more civil. I was interested in the topic knowing little about junks except seeing them in that Bruce Lee movie decades ago and a few posters here made this an uncomfortable thread to read with personal attacks - at least that’s how it felt to me.

They are great boats by reputation and the design I am guessing has been around for +/- a thousand years.

Sometimes designs are built for certain waters, rigs to fit materials at hand, etc...etc..

But to say you can mix and match hulls and rigs and practicality is the ultimate statement of boat ignorance or argumentative nature. Every rig has its plusses and minuses that are accentuated by the hull you put them on as well as what you want out of them. Look at all the rig designs for monohulls, multi-hulls, cat boats, clipper ships....etc....

Now back to junks in general... I would have to research all the different variations between those used in trade, combat, pleasure, etc to intelligently speak if any cold satisfy a modern, US boater any more than any other design.

Modern designers have used the junk rig on vessels, but they just aren't overly popular, maybe because of ignorance .... sea trials that show limitations beyond their positives for modern buyers.

Having wasted my time reading the 50 advantages....many don't really apply anymore with a well outfitted modern boat, one was for dinghies and just proof of the unfamiliar googling an outdated, severely opinionated article. It doesn't discount my thoughts so far that they are nice rigs on the proper vessel if the combined package meets your wants and desires. But it's always the package that wins, even for those that love boats based on looks alone.

 

[bowball]

Nice response. Thanks.

I’ll look for some interior photos - and I can imagine the maintenance would be extreme!

Not for me at all. Just was curious.

 

[JWellington]

Why not tie off a kite sail to your junk?

Instead of the junk rig.

 

[KnotYet]

It is only fair to mention the unstayed Freedom sailboat design, among others.
They use modern materials and technology to offer an alternative to stayed masts.

 

[JWellington]

It is only fair to mention the unstayed Freedom sailboat design, among others.
They use modern materials and technology to offer an alternative to stayed masts.

Quite right, also no need for standing rigging. I also like wing sails.

 

[John R M]

Perhaps all of this discussion could be moved to a sailing forum, as it has little to do with trawlers. If we're going to argue, let's at least keep it relevant to the forum.

 

[KnotYet]

Perhaps all of this discussion could be moved to a sailing forum, as it has little to do with trawlers. If we're going to argue, let's at least keep it relevant to the forum.

While you may be in the majority with that view, I will always prefer a trawler
with a sailing rig as the get-home. There were sailing trawlers first (and still are)!

 

[psneeld]

It is only fair to mention the unstayed Freedom sailboat design, among others.
They use modern materials and technology to offer an alternative to stayed masts.

But they are usually matched to specific hull designs.

Or the drawbacks become its a ketch/schooner rig, has through deck masts, and the list goes on and on of undesirable or desirable features. True that it's features you like or don't like, but not that one is overall superior to the other.

That Freedom was also designed for sail handling convenience back before Marconi rigged vesses had great roller furling, etc....

 

[psneeld]

Perhaps all of this discussion could be moved to a sailing forum, as it has little to do with trawlers. If we're going to argue, let's at least keep it relevant to the forum.

Good luck keeping all threads about trawlering let alone even close to reality

 

[HeadMistress]

I hope you'll forgive me for this off-top thread drift, but it's a favorite of mine and I rarely have an opportunity to share it:


A LOT of decades ago, newspapers etc had foreign correspondents assigned all over the world. One who'd been in China for a number of years and had been called back to the US wired for authorization, and received it, to ship "household goods and junk" back to US at company expense. Needless to say the "powers that be" were NOT amused when they learned that the "junk" was a boat! But because he'd included it in his request and they'd approved it, they could only grumble about it.


(I now return the thread to its intended discussion.)


--Peggie

 

[Mako]

Realize this is not Cruisersforum, but how come those Freedom boats went out of business/popularity? Perhaps not as fast as a modern rig, but for cruising that would seem to be advantageous.

 

[psneeld]

Realize this is not Cruisersforum, but how come those Freedom boats went out of business/popularity? Perhaps not as fast as a modern rig, but for cruising that would seem to be advantageous.

Every boat and sailboats their rigs are a compromise.

Different year boats have significant design and construction flaws.

Economy favors some businesses only some of the times.

Heard it was a combination of a lot of things and they just weren't selling.

 

[Jeff F]

I worked for Freedom and Nonsuch dealers way back when and have put a fair number of miles in on Nonsuch catboats. I continue to like them, and they stand up well in comparison to cruising boats of their time. They have pros and cons, but the appeal was clear in their day.

But the modern stayed cruising rig has evolved and improved enormously in the last 30 years. Roller furling headsails and in-mast mainsail furling, much better sails, and power assist have changed the game.

 

[psneeld]

I worked for Freedom and Nonsuch dealers way back when and have put a fair number of miles in on Nonsuch catboats. I continue to like them, and they stand up well in comparison to cruising boats of their time. They have pros and cons, but the appeal was clear in their day.

But the modern stayed cruising rig has evolved and improved enormously in the last 30 years. Roller furling headsails and in-mast mainsail furling, much better sails, and power assist have changed the game.

Thankyou......

 

[KnotYet]

Realize this is not Cruisersforum, but how come those Freedom boats went out of business/popularity? Perhaps not as fast as a modern rig, but for cruising that would seem to be advantageous.

As I recollect hey were rather pricey and at a time when you could buy a
Santa Cruz 50 for the same money as a smaller and vastly slower Freedom, well...

 

[dannc]

I have spent quite a bit of time looking at Junk Sailing Rigs, not Junks. As was said up thread, many if not all Junks are wood boats. We saw some being being built in China but my impression was that they would really be engine powered boats, not really Junk Rigged. Many of the photos of Junks are really power boats made to look like they are being sailed. The sails are just not big enough.

Then there are Thomas Colvin's steel boats with Junk Rigs, such as, https://wavetrain.net/2010/12/13/colvin-gazelle-a-junk-rigged-cruising-icon/. Quite a few steel boats were built to his designs with Junk Rigs. He sailed on his home built, steel, Junk Rig for many years. Course, he was a professional boat builder at one point, so to call his boat a home built is not quite accurate.

If I remember right, his boat was hit by a water spout in the Bahamas when his wife and he were on board. Boat just went around and around and around.

Colvin's design, though in steel, did follow the form of Chinese Junks and did have a Junk Rig sail plan. He did though put a jib boat to help with up wind sailing.

We really wanted a Diesel Duck with a Junk Rig and I spent quite a bit of time following what is described in https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Junk-Rig-Aerodynamics-Handling/dp/1888671017 to design rigs to fit on a DD. Buehler's designs had simple sail plans as a get home rig, enough to get you to a continent as he put it, meaning they were not going to sail to weather. Always thought a Junk Rig on a Diesel Duck was a great idea and looked good too.

The JRA(Junk Rig Association) has quite a bit of information on Junk Rigs, https://junkrigassociation.org/

Later,
Dan

 

[JWellington]

I have spent quite a bit of time looking at Junk Sailing Rigs, not Junks. As was said up thread, many if not all Junks are wood boats. We saw some being being built in China but my impression was that they would really be engine powered boats, not really Junk Rigged. Many of the photos of Junks are really power boats made to look like they are being sailed. The sails are just not big enough.

Then there are Thomas Colvin's steel boats with Junk Rigs, such as, https://wavetrain.net/2010/12/13/colvin-gazelle-a-junk-rigged-cruising-icon/. Quite a few steel boats were built to his designs with Junk Rigs. He sailed on his home built, steel, Junk Rig for many years. Course, he was a professional boat builder at one point, so to call his boat a home built is not quite accurate.

If I remember right, his boat was hit by a water spout in the Bahamas when his wife and he were on board. Boat just went around and around and around.

Colvin's design, though in steel, did follow the form of Chinese Junks and did have a Junk Rig sail plan. He did though put a jib boat to help with up wind sailing.

We really wanted a Diesel Duck with a Junk Rig and I spent quite a bit of time following what is described in https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Junk-Rig-Aerodynamics-Handling/dp/1888671017 to design rigs to fit on a DD. Buehler's designs had simple sail plans as a get home rig, enough to get you to a continent as he put it, meaning they were not going to sail to weather. Always thought a Junk Rig on a Diesel Duck was a great idea and looked good too.

The JRA(Junk Rig Association) has quite a bit of information on Junk Rigs, https://junkrigassociation.org/

Later,
Dan

Yes, junk rig on Diesel Ducks also good. One stubby unstayed mast.

 

[BruceK]

I hope you'll forgive me for this off-top thread drift, but it's a favorite of mine and I rarely have an opportunity to share it:....
(I now return the thread to its intended discussion.)


--Peggie

I`d have preferred the digression to continuation of bait & troll the OP dreamed up.

 

[FF]

For a modern boat the fully battened main sail is the best idea to use.

Since the sail does not flog when luffed it is even useful in waterway travel under power.

NO problem powering directly up wind when needed.

 

[Mako]

Peggie, great story! I work for government and can tell you that guy covered his butt well.

Back to junks... when I was in the Persian Gulf the boats were all dhows (very similar to junks) with the world's most reliable toilets - a little outhouse hanging off the back with a hole in the seat. To this day my wife still cringes when she's photos of those things.

 

[HeadMistress]

You could mount this on the transom and build an outhouse around it bumper dumper


--Peggie

 

[Porgy]

I read the 50 junk rig “advantages” and while it’s nice the author loves her rig, it was quite a stretch to me to find 50+. A few items were near repetitions, several could easily apply to any sailboat, several could also apply to cat rigs, several could also apply to any fully battened sail plan, and a few could also be considered disadvantages. As noted in several previous posts, advances in sails and rigging appear to have obviated many if not all of the supposed junk rig advantages. Noticeably absent from that list was the ability to point close hauled, unless the inability to point is somehow an advantage. It does retain the exotic uniqueness though.

And, nothing against junk rigs, interesting boats and evolution. I love gaff rigged catboats, they stop me in my tracks. Someday, I will own a Beetle. But I’m not going to try and convince anyone that with very few exceptions they are superior to all other rigs and sail plans.

 

[mvweebles]

"Chinese Junk"

Given this is not CruisersForum, I thought this would be a thread about buying tools from Harbor Freight.....

Peter

 

[dannc]

For a modern boat the fully battened main sail is the best idea to use...

Which is what the Chinese Junk Rig sails have done for centuries.

There is not ONE area/section of sail in a Junk Rig like there is in a western mail sail, instead there are multiple sails, supported and connected by battens, that make up the main sail. The Junk Rig battens are not like the flimsy modern battens but strong, structural elements of the Junk Rig. Most/Many Junk Rigs are going to have three to seven sections of sails, supported by battens, to make up the main sail compared to the western mainsail that is one large sail.

A western main sail will have two to four reefs. A Junk Rig has as many reefs as there are sail sections, likely three to seven, and maybe more. If a western main sail blows the main, or even rips the main, they have a big problem. A Junk Rig just has to lower the main to take the blown sail section out of use. IF they even have to do that operation since the sail will likely still function to some level unless completely blown out.

The stress on a Junk Rigs sail section is pretty low compared to western sails. The Junk Rig sails were first made from woven grass/reeds and there are people who have made sails out of cheap, plastic tarps. I have seen photos of Junk Rigs sailing with huge holes in the sail sections. I don't see how a western rigged boat could do the same.

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

...Noticeably absent from that list was the ability to point close hauled, unless the inability to point is somehow an advantage. It does retain the exotic uniqueness though.
...

Yes, going upwind is not a Junk Rig strength that is for sure.

But how many sail boats can really point up wind really well?

There are certainly lots of conversations about certain sailing catamarans up wind ability, or lack there of, not to mention many shoal draft mono hulls. We have had to turn on the Perkins and Volvo Wind Generators too many times when we got tired of tacking back and forth trying to sail up wind to a destination.

For a trawler sail plan, a Junk Rig makes a lot of sense. It is free standing, or at least most are, it is cheap to build and maintain, and it is rugged. Not being able to go up wind is a who cares because one, Gentleman Do No Sail To Weather, and two, if you need too, you will turn on the engine.

For the many sail boats that do not sail well upwind, a Junk Rig would have been a good design choice, but the Junk Rig is too different, in spite of it's advantages, to ever get a more than a small following of boats/people.

Later,
Dan

 

[psneeld]

So on top of a heavier mast( even carbon fiber) than a stayed mast, you also have a much heavier sail and battens aloft.

Right boat, great..... Wrong boat not so great and is either a plus or minus for different people.

Certainly not ONLY A PLUS, like some might try to convince.

The reason for the smaller following is obvious.at least to me. Especially because the rest of the world has gone through the phase of " could they actually be better"?.

 

[dannc]

So on top of a heavier mast( even carbon fiber) than a stayed mast, you also have a much heavier sail and battens aloft.

Right boat, great..... Wrong boat not so great and is either a plus or minus for different people.

Certainly not ONLY A PLUS, like some might try to convince.

The reason for the smaller following is obvious.at least to me. Especially because the rest of the world has gone through the phase of " could they actually be better"?.

A sailing rig is a design element, and the boat has to be designed around the sail plan, as well as everything else. Vessels are severely designed constrained and what one gets at one point in the design is going to impact another area.

People do convert western rigged boat to Junk Rigs and have sailed them very successfully. See Roger Taylor's Mingming as an example.

Though, I would guess many of the Junk Rigs boats that are out there, were designed that way. There were over 700 boats built to T. E. Colvin's designs, many with Junk Rigs but also Bermudian and Gaffs. Colvin used a stayed mast for his Junk Rigs. A Junk Rig does not have to be free standing. It is a design choice.

If one is going to be sailing the trade wind routes and going to places were getting any parts will be expensive, if they can be gotten at all, would it be better to have a rugged, simple and easily field repairable rigging? One won't be sailing up wind so why have a boat that is maximized for that ability?

The best technical solutions do not always survive in the market place. BetaMax is an example. People buy based on advertising, what is on the market(There sure are not many Junk Rigged Boats), what the Jones are using, boating magazine articles, what is fashionable, etc.

Junk Rigs are always going to be a minority rig in spite of it's advantages in certain applications. Racing around the buoys is not one of the advantages.

Later,
Dan

 

[psneeld]

I haven't been arguing that junk rigs aren't great options.

All I tried to do is point out to the not sure/curious that one just can't be fitted on any boat like one ignorant poster suggested or that they have 50 to 1 or 0 advantages over any other rig.

I considered having a junk rig on several custom boats I was thinking of building just for some of those "actual" versus theoretical advantages..... but by then I had switched to power.

 

[porman]

"Chinese Junk"

Given this is not CruisersForum, I thought this would be a thread about buying tools from Harbor Freight.....

Peter

As a retired mechanic I appreciate your comment.