Chain Pyramid of Doom

[GaryPete]

When I go to anchor, I get some chain out and then it stops. What has happened is the chain when previously brought in piled up and then fell onto itself leaving a tangled mess. Is there a way to prevent chain from falling onto itself so I don’t have to pull it to get it untangled and free again?

 

[chanprr]

Place a traffic cone which fits in your chain locker and the chain will wrap around it as you retrieve. No tangles.

 

[Comodave]

Can you make the rope locker deeper? Maybe route the chain under a berth in the forward cabin with a PVC pipe???

 

[Pascall]

I assume it is a galvanised chain, what is the condition of the chain?
With an older chain where the galvanisation corrodes, the links of the chain do not bend together as easily and the chain becomes less flexible.
This happens especially if it is a saltwater boat.
Cleaning the chain will give improvement, a stainless steel chain is the final solution.

 

[hollywood8118]

Place a traffic cone which fits in your chain locker and the chain will wrap around it as you retrieve. No tangles.

And then you will have a collapsed traffic cone tangled up in the stuck chain to contend with too!
Hollywood

 

[SteveK]

I had about 300 feet of chain new to me in a previous boat that was doing that. About a 100 feet at the tail end was well rusted, almost like the chain ends were reversed. I cut off 100 feet and no longer had a problem of sticking chain.
Maybe you have the same or you have too much chain for the locker space.

 

[Mambo42]

Do you have access from the side to that chain locker ?
We have the same problem and in order to avoid that problem we now take a labor intensive approach, but it solves the problem. The problem occurs when you raise the anchor, chain piles up and then falls over. So we now have one of us sitting next to the chain locker and guiding the chain into the chain locker, preventing a pile up and fall over.
I know it sounds stupid and should not be necessary, but it is the only solution that seems to work. I have tried putting a conical wood shape into the chain locker, but that thing fell over more than once, so did not help a bit. I have been searching for a spinning chain 'layer', but so far no joy. If anyone has figured out something that does work I will be all ears.

 

[Frosty]

I have tried putting a conical wood shape into the chain locker, but that thing fell over more than once, so did not help a bit.

Just curious: Did your conical shape have a wide/flat base like the construction cone shown above? If so, I would think the first section of chain would land on that base and hold the cone in place. That said, I have never had the pyramid of doom so have not tried it. But so now I'm curious if your cone was "just a cone" or if it had a wide/flat base and still fell over.

I could see where stainless chain might also solve it (slipperier), but if you already have good galvanized chain that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Mambo42]

Just curious: Did your conical shape have a wide/flat base like the construction cone shown above? If so, I would think the first section of chain would land on that base and hold the cone in place. That said, I have never had the pyramid of doom so have not tried it. But so now I'm curious if your cone was "just a cone" or if it had a wide/flat base and still fell over.

I could see where stainless chain might also solve it (slipperier), but if you already have good galvanized chain that's nothing to sneeze at.

The main problem was that the cone was not strong enough, thus crumbling to one side with chain below and above it. Maybe if I would use a metal cone the problem would go away, but I did not put in an effort to weld one. It would have to be one from the base of the chain locker to the top and that would eat up a lot of space.
I once saw a sort of swivel arm on Youtube that basically kept making circles all the time. The chain simply pushes it around in circles. That one is fixed to the top part of the chain locker, where the chain enters the chain locker.
Problem is that i cannot get tha anywhere in Europe.

 

[AlaskaProf]

My issue was that the chain pile would reach the locker entry port under the windlass and clog it causing chain to pile on deck. An appropriate size stainless bar was used to stir the locker every 30' or so, tipping over the pyramid.

 

[Mac2]

The main problem was that the cone was not strong enough, thus crumbling to one side with chain below and above it. Maybe if I would use a metal cone the problem would go away, but I did not put in an effort to weld one. It would have to be one from the base of the chain locker to the top and that would eat up a lot of space.
I once saw a sort of swivel arm on Youtube that basically kept making circles all the time. The chain simply pushes it around in circles. That one is fixed to the top part of the chain locker, where the chain enters the chain locker.
Problem is that i cannot get tha anywhere in Europe.

That sounds like the way to go. I’m in the US. Wonder if anyone has a brand name. I will start searching and post any results. “Swiveling anti stack chain thingamajig”.

 

[Frosty]

I just found this video by s/v Panope testing various anti-chain piling tactics. I haven't watched it yet, but given his series of interesting anchor testing videos, I'm going to post the link here (then go watch it).

[Edited to add: Okay watched it, synopsis below]

In a nutshell, findings:

He made various experiments to see how much chain would go into a mockup anchor locker. No-one knocked down the pile at all for the tests. He simply fed in chain and measured how many feet he could get in the locker before the piling stopped it.

Findings:
Centerline deck pipe hole is best (obviously aftish in the anchor locker). Side, forward, or even side-with-a-ramp-to-center mostly very inferior (tho with stainless chain, side hole with a ramp a bit better than with other chain).

Stainless chain allowed the most chain in the locker without piling problems.

Galvanized 3/8" BBB was the worst.

But interestingly, by going down a size, but "up" to G4 (high test), he was able to go down to a 5/16" galvanized rode and have it still exceed the BBB strength. That would allow nearly as much chain to go into the locker without pile stoppage as the stainless chain. So chain size made a difference.

The cone in every case didn't help (tho of course a different locker shape might work better with a cone).

It's a fun video to watch (at least I enjoyed it) and, just so you know, about 2/3 of the way through there is a chart showing all the data that you can pause on and screenshot; so you can watch the video without needing to take notes.

In the end he showed how he modified his own boat to improve it. Basically, it originally had a center bowsprit, so windlass and deck pipe were off to stbd. Chronic chain piling problem. Moved hole to centerline, much improvement.

 

[ancora]

We had the same problem with 3/8" chain. Switched to 5/16" G2...problem solved. No more pyramiding and the 5/16" G2 fit the gypsy perfectly.

 

[jgwinks]

As built the chain locker in my 1973 Concorde 41 was quite wide but only about 14 inches high. Clearly designed for the all rope rode the boat came with. I wanted all chain so I simply cut out the plywood bottom of the locker. There's a large void underneath, otherwise inaccessible about 4 feet deep so the chain just falls into that with no jamming. The only downside is there's no way to make the locker drain overboard but the original drained into the bilge anyway so I'm not out anything.

 

[Datenight]

The main problem was that the cone was not strong enough, thus crumbling to one side with chain below and above it. Maybe if I would use a metal cone the problem would go away, but I did not put in an effort to weld one.

I wonder if you could fill the cone with spray foam to stiffen it a bit?

Rob

 

[DDW]

If you have or can find the depth, just make the locker smaller in area and deeper. I made a cylinder out of fiberglass layed up on a Sonotube concrete form, so about 14" diameter and 4' deep. The chain never tangles. It can probably be larger diameter than that, I just made it as deep as space allowed and as large as was needed for the volume of chain, but no larger.

 

[GaryPete]

Place a traffic cone which fits in your chain locker and the chain will wrap around it as you retrieve. No tangles.

Thank you. Great idea! And with all of the construction around here…!

 

[Frosty]

Thank you. Great idea! And with all of the construction around here…!

You might want to check out the s/v Panope video I linked above in the thread. He demos the cone and it wasn't all that impressive. Of course that said, perhaps your locker/cone/situation will be different. (I thought it sounded like a great idea too.)

 

[Xlantic]

I tried the cone and no joy. Has it worked for anybody or is it an urban legend that goes around and around?

 

[eheffa]

When we are retrieving more than ~ 40m (120 ft) of chain, halfway through the retrieval, I just go down to the chain locker & flatten out the pyramid.

Easy & quite effective.

 

[salish]

If you have or can find the depth, just make the locker smaller in area and deeper. I made a cylinder out of fiberglass layed up on a Sonotube concrete form, so about 14" diameter and 4' deep. The chain never tangles. It can probably be larger diameter than that, I just made it as deep as space allowed and as large as was needed for the volume of chain, but no larger.

That's what I determined as well. Doesn't matter if it stacks as long as the stack is prevented from falling over Modifying the shape of the locker worked for me.

 

[Frosty]

I tried the cone and no joy. Has it worked for anybody or is it an urban legend that goes around and around?

I don't know about everybody (and I have never tried one), but in s/v Panope's experiment video above it didn't do much.

 

[Long Island Boater]

When we are retrieving more than ~ 40m (120 ft) of chain, halfway through the retrieval, I just go down to the chain locker & flatten out the pyramid.

Easy & quite effective.

Agreed and that has been our approach after trying a variety of other ideas.

 

[Tacklow]

When I go to anchor, I get some chain out and then it stops. What has happened is the chain when previously brought in piled up and then fell onto itself leaving a tangled mess. Is there a way to prevent chain from falling onto itself so I don’t have to pull it to get it untangled and free again?

Two options: if you have the room make your chain locker narrower and higher, rather than wide and shallow; or, have a crew member rake the chain as it comes in to precent it forming a pyramid and collapsing (its natural tendency!).

 

[GaryPete]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. A few replies to your questions:
-I had watched that video but seemed inconclusive.
-my chain is 3/8 and is “slightly to moderately corroded. Might be the issue.
-thought about the cone but my locker is shaped like a large, upside down cone. So no flat area for cone to sit.
-this is center to my boat.
-thinking I should price new 5/16 chain.
-generally just two of us, so not sure how I can I have one of us below and one at the windlass as no one would be on the helm!

 

[promariner]

The main problem was that the cone was not strong enough, thus crumbling to one side with chain below and above it. Maybe if I would use a metal cone the problem would go away, but I did not put in an effort to weld one. It would have to be one from the base of the chain locker to the top and that would eat up a lot of space.
I once saw a sort of swivel arm on Youtube that basically kept making circles all the time. The chain simply pushes it around in circles. That one is fixed to the top part of the chain locker, where the chain enters the chain locker.
Problem is that i cannot get tha anywhere in Europe.

The soft vinyl cones will collapse from the weight of the chain. There are small hard plastic traffic cones available.

 

[Nepidae]

As i read down your question and responses my thought was to corrosion on the chain.

We use 3/8" G4 chain and have never had any issues with 'entanglement'. The reason being is that each year we 'wash' our chain at winter layup. Our rode is a combination of chain and rope (the rope is 8 plait) which is then attached to the boat (is yours attached down in the chain locker?).

When we are winterizing, we have about 150' of chain, which is attached to the anchor, we pull the chain up and deposit in a 5gal bucket. As it goes into the bucket it is sprayed with anti-corrosive spray, take your pick, and then capped for the winter on deck. The rope is pulled occasionally to check on it's status and if there is any 'growth' we pull it up, disconnect it from the boat and use a cooler with Woolite to wash that buy agitating the water and letting it soak for a while. Our chain & rope is spliced together but in all of our anchoring we've never hit the rope.

I can feel pretty confident that your issue IS due to chain corrosion. Get that taken care of and you will be OK. Unfortunately, you do have some work in front of you in getting the chain out and with a wire brush working down the chain and then I'd spray the chain and let it sit and then spray again and feed it back down into the locker. Make sure none of the links are 'welded' together as you feed it into the locker and if they are just treat them more energetically.

BTW, going to smaller chain might solve one of your problems, because it won't be corroded, but could open another problem with undersized chain for your boat and a mismatch to your anchor. We have a Rocna 55# anchor at the end of our chain.

This year I an planning on spraying our anchor with anti-corrosive paint that i use on our running gear when I replace anodes. Rustolium makes a product which is less expensive than the marine brands.

Hope this help, any question don't hesitate to PM me.

 

[Tom Daly]

I tried the cone stuffed with expanding foam. no joy. (before that I also tried a soccer ball, no joy).
My locker is not as deep as I would like, considering its width. I carry 400' of 3/8 to be able to
anchor in occasional very deep water. I realized I rarely used more than 200'. So I built a vertical divider
in the locker, creating 2 separate piles, each half the width, so less pyramiding and more like the ideal narrow
tube. If all the chain is out, on load the first 200' is directed to the SB half locker by a manual diverter. Some assistance faking the chain flatter is helpful. At the 200' mark, the diverter is removed and the normal fall from the windlass goes into the P half. 200' into the now narrower locker stacks just fine without assistance.
So as I cruise, as long as I don't exceed 200', operation is unattended and now flawless. If I do have to use more, it can be used automatically (no adjustment below) when deploying. A little assistance as above
is used for the deployed part greater than 200' when retrieving.

 

[Davil1]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. A few replies to your questions:
-I had watched that video but seemed inconclusive.
-my chain is 3/8 and is “slightly to moderately corroded. Might be the issue.
-thought about the cone but my locker is shaped like a large, upside down cone. So no flat area for cone to sit.
-this is center to my boat.
-thinking I should price new 5/16 chain.
-generally just two of us, so not sure how I can I have one of us below and one at the windlass as no one would be on the helm!

Not addressing your question specifically,
Have you considered remote switches?
I have a switch by the pedestal in my cockpit
another set of foot switches by the windlass

I sail solo and can control the windlass from both stations.