Boatyard caution on Chesapeake Bay

[tomdove]

I have delayed posting this but it continues to disturb me and I think a warning is due.

In September 2024 we took our 1977 Grand Banks 32 to Phipps Boat Works at Deale, Maryland for repair of a rotted and leaking cabin window. It would require removing the window, replacing it and priming the surface, including about one square foot inside the boat paneling. Mr. Phipps was reassuring and said that this common repair was easier on a Grand Banks than most other old trawlers and that he had done the job many times before. He also said he could repair a loose handrail on the flybridge, which I accepted. He refused to give any estimate of cost even after looking at the job carefully, which made me uneasy.

Four days later we returned to pick up the boat and found a workmanlike repair and an unitemized bill for 43 hours, which translated to $5,333.81, not including dockage. I was shocked. I have dealt with boatyards all my adult life so I objected to this price and he reduced it by 10%, still a very high figure in my estimation. I paid and left.

Based on my experience I suggest avoiding this boatyard.

Tom Dove

 

[O C Diver]

I have delayed posting this but it continues to disturb me and I think a warning is due.

In September 2024 we took our 1977 Grand Banks 32 to Phipps Boat Works at Deale, Maryland for repair of a rotted and leaking cabin window. It would require removing the window, replacing it and priming the surface, including about one square foot inside the boat paneling. Mr. Phipps was reassuring and said that this common repair was easier on a Grand Banks than most other old trawlers and that he had done the job many times before. He also said he could repair a loose handrail on the flybridge, which I accepted. He refused to give any estimate of cost even after looking at the job carefully, which made me uneasy.

Four days later we returned to pick up the boat and found a workmanlike repair and an unitemized bill for 43 hours, which translated to $5,333.81, not including dockage. I was shocked. I have dealt with boatyards all my adult life so I objected to this price and he reduced it by 10%, still a very high figure in my estimation. I paid and left.

Based on my experience I suggest avoiding this boatyard.

Tom Dove

While I'm not defending him nor the boatyard (as I don't know them), what were you expecting in terms of the price?

While I can't say what the price should be, I would suggest looking at it in perspective. First, what did the window cost? Was it hundreds or a thousand dollars? For the quality of the work (workmanlike repair), putting aside the hours, can you get quality work for under $100 per hour?

Regarding an estimate:
This is like doing repairs on an old house. Until you open up the walls, you have no idea how far the damage goes.

Friend of mine took a company truck to Tampa, FL for specialty work. The company works on trash trucks, cranes, fire trucks, and roll off trucks. Sign on the door says, "Labor Rate - $250 per hour ". They were very busy!

If you want craftsman like quality work, it isn't cheap anymore. If they opened up the wall and removed the window, what would you want them to do if the work far exceeded the estimate?

Ted

 

[tiltrider1]

I only deal with time and material shops. We usually estimate hours by processes but estimates are just guesses and they usually only indicate how much hidden damage existed.

Lack of an itemized receipt is the only negative take away. There is at a minimum removal, carpentry, glass work, painting and installation. Often i see itemization for hooking up power, scaffolding, floor protection and final clean up.

The bill doesn’t sound outrageous but I can’t see the scope of the work.

I do have a friend who runs a small yard. He gives out no estimates and he doesn’t itemize his bills. His bills are often based on how much money he thinks he deserves for the week. While this sounds terrible and a place to avoid, he in fact does excellent work at half the price of most yards. He always has a backlog of work.

 

[twistedtree]

The billed hours are 2 people working on it all day for 3 days. Does that make sense for the job? I don't really know, but it seems like a lot of time.

 

[mvweebles]

The billed hours are 2 people working on it all day for 3 days. Does that make sense for the job? I don't really know, but it seems like a lot of time.

That's where my mind went too. But I can't really imagine two people working full time on a project like this. There is a lot of dwell time waiting for stuff to dry - guessing the yard isn't very good at having alternative work for workers to do while there are paused in a project.

Anyone else surprised that the yard said they don't his work all the time but would not give an estimate?

Peter

 

[tiltrider1]

That's where my mind went too. But I can't really imagine two people working full time on a project like this. There is a lot of dwell time waiting for stuff to dry - guessing the yard isn't very good at having alternative work for workers to do while there are paused in a project.

Anyone else surprised that the yard said they don't his work all the time but would not give an estimate?

Peter

This is where not knowing the scope of the work makes it difficult to understand. Did they tent the work area? Did they remove furniture? You can burn up 10 hours just preparing an area for foot traffic.

Did they find more rot than expected? I am not taking a side here. I simply don’t have enough facts to make a judgement.

 

[boomerang]

Let's see...yesterday I decided to raise my AIS whip antenna with a 4' shakespeare extension for a better xmit/receive and add a FM antenna on the opposite side for the flybridge stereo, both on existing mounts. Whoever installed the mounts previously didn't care about them being straight and matching the rest of the antennas (it's a pet peeve of mine ,seeing a boat with antennas mounted at all angles and non of them the same. It looks unprofessional) so I had to remove the mount bolts ,shim the mounts, clean the calking , reseal and reinstall the mounts. I re-ran the AIS cable and replaced the PL259 connector. It was an easy job that took about half a day. 2 weeks ago I replaced both the upper and lower station clutch cables. Disconnecting them from the clutch and 2 helms, removing them, then replacing & reconnecting them was another brainless job that a caveman could do yet again, it took over a half a day, not including me driving an hour to buy the cables.
Every time I complete a job, I'm surprised how long it took me to do it, and (most of the time) I know what I'm doing! There's no way we could afford to own our boat if we had to depend on a boatyard to do our maintenance and upgrades but I very much can appreciate and understand why a yard bills what it does. When I was in business and someone questioned my labor (most of the time it was in jest as a lot of my customers told me my rates were too reasonable) I explained to them that I had to charge what I charged if they wanted me to still be in business the next time they called me.

 

[mvweebles]

This is where not knowing the scope of the work makes it difficult to understand. Did they tent the work area? Did they remove furniture? You can burn up 10 hours just preparing an area for foot traffic.

Did they find more rot than expected? I am not taking a side here. I simply don’t have enough facts to make a judgement.

I agree it's unfair to "Monday morning quarterback" a project. But some things are typical and can be expected as long as you're open to how things change.

43 hours were burned in 4 days. Helpers are common in boatyards because many tasks require a second set of hands outside the boat, and sometimes it's just helpful to have a helper for some work such as electrical/wire runs. But except for removing and setting a large window, carpentry is fairly solo work so it's not unreasonable to ask where the time went. The yard claimed to be experienced with this type of work - I shudder to think of the time they billed during their early projects. They should have the expertise and equipment at their fingertips.

Obviously the takeaway here is to be careful but there is no way to do anything after the fact except register surprise and suspicion. We've all been there and felt like we got burned so I really feel for the OP. I'm sure he trusted the yard. Thankfully he received good outcome.

Peter

 

[tiltrider1]

My personal experience. If you come to the yard everyday and review what has been done and what is expected during the day two things happen. You know exactly what went into the project and the yard doesn't slip in unwarranted extras.

Workers are only human and yard work is not easy. They clock on to a job but then its break time or an extra hand is needed to launch a boat or a Product Rep drops in to make a pitch. The workers don't get paid if they are not clocked on to a job. Job's can easily accumulate extra hours. When a project manager is on sight the workers know and they make sure they are clocked on to a different job when these interruptions occur.

I am not inferring that any of this is necessarily related to OP's job. It is just all so common with yard work.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Go read the MD consumer protection law. I just posted a bitter experience on here with s starter place. Law ssys you are entitled to an estimate, and not to exceed 10% more wo your permission

 

[mvweebles]

Go read the MD consumer protection law. I just posted a bitter experience on here with s starter place. Law ssys you are entitled to an estimate, and not to exceed 10% more wo your permission

Do you happen to have a link? Language is important. Most laws grew out of auto repair complaints so might be very narrow in applicability.

Does Maryland (or any other state) have broadly defined laws that would extend to marine services?

Peter

 

[Uisce Beo]

I like “not to exceed” estimates. It gives both parties some idea of scope and cost. The problem is what do you do when they open up an area or, in this case, remove a window and find more issues than expected. Still, the not to exceed is a built in stop point to rethink and have a two way conversation. This gives both parties a chance to be heard and arrive at a mutual decision.
As others have said, we have no real idea if the invoice is reasonable given the work done. But, in this case, both parties are not happy. OP with the high invoice and the yard owner for having to concede 10%.

 

[Adopo]

You think this is bad you should see my ten times bill plus for varnish, bottom job and a few minor things at Hinckley for a 30.6 ft Scout. I should have a Jasper Johns. I love the look of varnish but I hate varnishing lol. You should see the bill for the 2nd dock I had built on our adjoining lot just to cover this boat. And to think I would like to have a 55 or 65 Fleming where I was quoted 25k just to varnish cap rails. Everything is ridiculous partially because we were wrecked by Covid. And people don't want to work like they use to but they want to be paid. I understand how Tom Dove feels. I love the 32 GB has to be one of the best boats that size ever built, just lovely.

I had an idea long ago when cameras were just coming out. Worker Cam. You set it up and it documents whats being done, when its done, and how its done. The only thing it can't document is work out of sight. AI could quickly do an analysis of any job. I'm sure businesses would reject it. Wouldn't you like to know if Lawyers really do bill you honestly when you require their work? Its hard to get anything done on time and with the quality you expect, at least it is for me. I have fantasized about tying concrete blocks to some of the people associated with the dock company.

 

[Choices]

I tell everyone the yard cost to refit GB windows is $1-2k per window. It takes 24 man hours per window.

With interior rot and damage that could double easily.

Hate to say it, but that's probably inline.

 

[JDCAVE]

I have 7 pilothouse windows. I rebedded them about 10-11 years ago (there’s a thread on this forum on it), replacing the laminated glass on the three forward windows as they were starting to fog. I took about a day per window and 10 tubes of 3M 4200. The total cost was about $800. A friend hired a shipwright to rebed the 3 forward windows. He spent $5,000. For 3 windows. Same year.

Jim

 

[Comodave]

I do like the idea of putting a camera in the work area. It might help to see if they are paddling the bill or not. I would not mention the camera but just let them work and see how it goes.