KJ
El Capitan
Inquiry:* Pre purchase-- do you get the boat surveyed first, or do you get the engines*done first, assuming that you are having them done separately?* Do you (did you) get oil analysis done pre?** KJ
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FF
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" Do you (did you) get oil analysis done pre? "
The boat will give a load of clues just by looking and talking to the owner.
Look for the spares carried , look fore the oil used , Is it diesel oil or car oil.
Diesel antifreez or car ?
Ask the owner for the oil sample log, if the answer is DUHHH, be very prepared to spend big bucks.
The boat will give a load of clues just by looking and talking to the owner.
Look for the spares carried , look fore the oil used , Is it diesel oil or car oil.
Diesel antifreez or car ?
Ask the owner for the oil sample log, if the answer is DUHHH, be very prepared to spend big bucks.
magicbus
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After negotiating a price we got a survey and sea trial - bank and insurance wanted it (and so did we). The oil tests are so cheap they are worth it regardless. We skipped the engine survey as maintenance history was available.
Dave
Dave
jleonard
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*"if the answer is DUHHH, be very prepared to spend big bucks."
I cannot agree with that. Many do not do regular samples, but that doesn't mean the engine is bad.
I cannot agree with that. Many do not do regular samples, but that doesn't mean the engine is bad.
This doesn't always tell you much.* If he just changed the oil, your testing clean oil.* If the boat has good maintenance records, the engine room and general conditions usually indicates how the boat was treated.* Engine survey?* We have had them in the past.* I stick to the surveyor as he's doing his stuff.* It's a great education and if this boat is not the one, you are better prepared for the next one.* In the over all cost of the purchase, a survey isn't that much more money.* IMHO.
*Larry/Lena
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O C Diver
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Oil analysis is a good idea for a pre purchase. Must admit I don't do it on my boat as part of my service schedule. Do regular oil changes based on an hour meter which works out to more than once a month during the summer.
Also, some diesels (such as mine) use automotive antifreeze with an additive package as recommended by the manufacturer. It's a good idea to read the owners manual before assuming the PO is using the wrong fluids.
Ted
Also, some diesels (such as mine) use automotive antifreeze with an additive package as recommended by the manufacturer. It's a good idea to read the owners manual before assuming the PO is using the wrong fluids.
Ted
FF
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." Many do not do regular samples, but that doesn't mean the engine is bad."
True , But what we are looking for is ATTITUDE.
Did the PO change the oil because it was Black from a few years use and he is now selling his queen , or does he use a book , and follow it as the guy that marinized the engine suggested?
A fellow with a professional attitude towards Preventive Maint will usually keep a log , and probably have at least annual oil sampling.
(wow! Its $14.00 at DD cheaper elsewhere)
The fear is the rats nest , ain't broke why mess with it? that is the lifestyle of especially many live aboard folks .
WE can always fix it before we go cruising , EXCEPT , now!* its YOU that may be cruising.
Caviat Emptor
-- Edited by FF on Saturday 25th of December 2010 11:54:56 AM
True , But what we are looking for is ATTITUDE.
Did the PO change the oil because it was Black from a few years use and he is now selling his queen , or does he use a book , and follow it as the guy that marinized the engine suggested?
A fellow with a professional attitude towards Preventive Maint will usually keep a log , and probably have at least annual oil sampling.
(wow! Its $14.00 at DD cheaper elsewhere)
The fear is the rats nest , ain't broke why mess with it? that is the lifestyle of especially many live aboard folks .
WE can always fix it before we go cruising , EXCEPT , now!* its YOU that may be cruising.
Caviat Emptor
-- Edited by FF on Saturday 25th of December 2010 11:54:56 AM
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mrwright
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The fear is the rats nest , ain't broke why mess with it? that is the lifestyle of especially many live aboard folks .
Just plain ridiculous. One of the reasons I live aboard is so I can attend to maintenance and USE my boat on a regular basis. Also, my boat gets used just about weekly regardless of season which is probably more than a fair number of the .5 million dollar dock queens whose owners inhabit this site.
Maybe I'm unique but my philosophy on boat maintenance (tho expensive) is simple: take good care of her ... you never know when you may need her to save your life.
Just plain ridiculous. One of the reasons I live aboard is so I can attend to maintenance and USE my boat on a regular basis. Also, my boat gets used just about weekly regardless of season which is probably more than a fair number of the .5 million dollar dock queens whose owners inhabit this site.
Maybe I'm unique but my philosophy on boat maintenance (tho expensive) is simple: take good care of her ... you never know when you may need her to save your life.
I think the "if it ain't broke don't mess wih it" philosophy is fine if it's applied with common sense.* A regular oil change interval based on the manufacturer's recommendation isn't based on being "broke," it's simply smart mainteneance.
Periodic oil samples are fine if they make the boater more confident in the engine(s).* On the other hand, from what I've read, observed, and been told, the one reason engines DON'T shut down or fail underway is an oil problem that can be detected only with an analysis.* Engines fail because they overheat or have fuel problems or blow an oil line or a head gasket or whatever.* I don't hear of them dieing into silence because the oil had 0.00326 ppm of such-and-such in it.
Oil analysis is a major benefit in determining how an engine is doing with regards to needing an overhaul.* In aviation an oil analysis program can be used to extend the TBO of some engines.
We do what Eric does.* We change the oil and filter regularly (actually at half the interval time called for in the operator's manual), but we don't have the oil analyzed.* We had an oil analysis done during the pre-purchase engine survey, but that was just to get a one-time snapshot of what things were like inside the engines.* For oil analysis to be truly useful, it needs to be done at regular intervals so you can see trends developing.
*
RickB
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Unless that sample was taken after a really long run all it told you was what things were like inside the oil. If it had been changed immediately before the survey it wouldn't tell much about the engine that you probably couldn't see or hear anyway.
Short of the trend developed over multiple samples the only thing that will give you a snapshot of the inside of the engine is a borescope with a camera attached.
FF
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"I change oil regulary but don't get oil samples."
That's great , IF you keep a log that shows the engine hours and dates of the work.
But think about it in another way ,
on a 100 -200 hour a year boat it is really doubtful that oil samples will show much of anything besides ATTITUDE or an impending disaster.
Eventually most folks will be selling their boat and on old boats "paint sells da boat" is the motto, but its really CONDITION you are selling .
A huge investment of $15 bucks a year is $150 in a decade , Its my belief that documented investment in maint (and a engine log) will pay 10X to 50X in resale value.
All your thousands of bucks of electric toys will be far outdated and of Zero interest and Zero value to the next guy, and another task to "upgrade",
BUT the documented care for the engine , Priceless!
That's great , IF you keep a log that shows the engine hours and dates of the work.
But think about it in another way ,
on a 100 -200 hour a year boat it is really doubtful that oil samples will show much of anything besides ATTITUDE or an impending disaster.
Eventually most folks will be selling their boat and on old boats "paint sells da boat" is the motto, but its really CONDITION you are selling .
A huge investment of $15 bucks a year is $150 in a decade , Its my belief that documented investment in maint (and a engine log) will pay 10X to 50X in resale value.
All your thousands of bucks of electric toys will be far outdated and of Zero interest and Zero value to the next guy, and another task to "upgrade",
BUT the documented care for the engine , Priceless!
Unless that sample was taken after a really long run all it told you was what things were like inside the oil.
YThe oil samples were taken after the boat had been run for about three hours, two on our sea trial and one by the engine surveyor.* But the oil was not fresh and the surveyor said he wanted to see what sort of metals might be in the oil.
But you're right, the samples did not show what things were like "inside the engines" as far as their physical condition went.* Just what things were like "inside the oil."
*
Tidahapah
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With first enquiry I would check how old engines are, how many hours and did owner keep maint records.
If that all looked kosher and the engines were not DDs I would have the hull/boat surveyed.
If the engines were DDs I would go away but that is just a personal fact.
Benn
-- Edited by Tidahapah on Monday 27th of December 2010 01:34:05 AM
If that all looked kosher and the engines were not DDs I would have the hull/boat surveyed.
If the engines were DDs I would go away but that is just a personal fact.
Benn
-- Edited by Tidahapah on Monday 27th of December 2010 01:34:05 AM
FF
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DD's Are Detroit Diesels , the most common being the 6-71.
Designed in 1936 and modestly efficient if selected and set up properly
A DD will produce 16 hp from a gallon of diesel, some more modern 50's taxi cab engine marinizations can go 18hp , but their longevity 1/4 to 1/20 , depending on use.They are industrial rated , so 165hp at 1800 is FOREVER.
DD have fantastic reliability , and can be overhauled in place , cylinders pistons wrist pins bearings, main and rod for about a grand in parts.
BUT the units are labor intensive during the overhaul and a mechanic and book are required , not a parts R&R guy.
For a trawler their ability to get home ,( loose a cylinder , IT STILL RUNS!) is what has had them the engine of choice in work boats (not TT) and on oil rigs .
In the late 80's they became "obsolete" from the clean air Nazis , however as the diesel engine with the longest production run in world history , parts are still cheap and easy (and with world wide demand should be for another half century) .
A huge bonus for yacht service where the vast majority of time is the ease with which the engine can be placed out of service.
6 bolts are removed from the engine side and preserving oil is simply sprayed into the exposed cylinders , a turn and a second spray , restore 6 bolts , done!
Fogging oil is about $5.00 a can at NAPA and will do the engine numerous times , so even ex sailors can store their engines properly in about an hour..
The downside is they are big and heavy .
-- Edited by FF on Monday 27th of December 2010 05:50:40 AM
Designed in 1936 and modestly efficient if selected and set up properly
A DD will produce 16 hp from a gallon of diesel, some more modern 50's taxi cab engine marinizations can go 18hp , but their longevity 1/4 to 1/20 , depending on use.They are industrial rated , so 165hp at 1800 is FOREVER.
DD have fantastic reliability , and can be overhauled in place , cylinders pistons wrist pins bearings, main and rod for about a grand in parts.
BUT the units are labor intensive during the overhaul and a mechanic and book are required , not a parts R&R guy.
For a trawler their ability to get home ,( loose a cylinder , IT STILL RUNS!) is what has had them the engine of choice in work boats (not TT) and on oil rigs .
In the late 80's they became "obsolete" from the clean air Nazis , however as the diesel engine with the longest production run in world history , parts are still cheap and easy (and with world wide demand should be for another half century) .
A huge bonus for yacht service where the vast majority of time is the ease with which the engine can be placed out of service.
6 bolts are removed from the engine side and preserving oil is simply sprayed into the exposed cylinders , a turn and a second spray , restore 6 bolts , done!
Fogging oil is about $5.00 a can at NAPA and will do the engine numerous times , so even ex sailors can store their engines properly in about an hour..
The downside is they are big and heavy .
-- Edited by FF on Monday 27th of December 2010 05:50:40 AM
sunchaser
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If the vessel you may be looking at is otherwise acceptable, there are many vessels out there with DDs that*are ideal repower candidates.
It is* not uncommon that an Alaska commercial fishing boat will swap out DDs for Cummins or JD. Ditto repowers of 8 or 12V 92s Bertrams, Viking and Post sportfishing yachts with a Cummins or MTU. In these canyon runners the lighter newer diesels completely transform the vessel by cutting weight, increasing range and providing higher speed.*
There are many trawlers that are likewise candidates for swapping out a 6-71 or* 4-53*for a Tier II/II Cummins or JD with big improvements to range and mileage.
It is* not uncommon that an Alaska commercial fishing boat will swap out DDs for Cummins or JD. Ditto repowers of 8 or 12V 92s Bertrams, Viking and Post sportfishing yachts with a Cummins or MTU. In these canyon runners the lighter newer diesels completely transform the vessel by cutting weight, increasing range and providing higher speed.*
There are many trawlers that are likewise candidates for swapping out a 6-71 or* 4-53*for a Tier II/II Cummins or JD with big improvements to range and mileage.
RickB
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If you calculate a "heat balance" for the fuel that is consumed by a DD it will come out something like this:
Fuel energy input: 100%
Energy delivered to prop:* 25%
Energy lost to exhaust:**** 30%
Energy lost to coolant:***** 20%
Energy lost to friction :****** *5%
Energy lost to noise:******** 15%
Energy lost to hot oil leaks into bilge:* 5%
Most of the efficiency gains claimed by modern engines results from reduced lube oil leakage and the elimination of noise. DDs are known for their utility in converting diesel fuel to decibels.
*
-- Edited by RickB on Monday 27th of December 2010 09:33:38 AM
KJ wrote:
I'd like to revisit the first part of my inquiry.* If you were going to get pre purchase surveys done, which would you (or did you) get done first, the boat or the engines?
*******************************************************************
When we purchased our boat it wasn't an either/or decision or first/second it was a matter of getting the two independent events scheduled.* The vessel surveyor was a popular guy and we had to squeeze his availability into the purchase process.* The engine survey was done by a local engine shop a couple of days after the general survey.* The purchase decision was based upon the vessel surveyor and what he told us verbally during the survey.* We told the broker "we'll take the boat but we want to hold the final decision on the results of the engine survey and oil sample".*
I elected to have an oil sample done because I knew the oil had not been changed for some time.* There was no history of previous oil samples but the one we took gave us a general indication of contaminant levels.* Mostly I talked to the mechanic and he said the engine looked/sounded good.* The oil sample actually took about two weeks to get back from the lab so it really wasn't a determinant in the decision process.
On the subject of spectrum oil analysis...I do sampling of the engine oil and the trans fluid once a year*in August or September*and I have six years of tests as a baseline.*
To answer your question the general/hull survey will answer the questions about buying the boat.* The engine survey justs confirms what you discovered during the hull survey and the sea trial.* Find a good hull surveyor.
I'd like to revisit the first part of my inquiry.* If you were going to get pre purchase surveys done, which would you (or did you) get done first, the boat or the engines?
*******************************************************************
When we purchased our boat it wasn't an either/or decision or first/second it was a matter of getting the two independent events scheduled.* The vessel surveyor was a popular guy and we had to squeeze his availability into the purchase process.* The engine survey was done by a local engine shop a couple of days after the general survey.* The purchase decision was based upon the vessel surveyor and what he told us verbally during the survey.* We told the broker "we'll take the boat but we want to hold the final decision on the results of the engine survey and oil sample".*
I elected to have an oil sample done because I knew the oil had not been changed for some time.* There was no history of previous oil samples but the one we took gave us a general indication of contaminant levels.* Mostly I talked to the mechanic and he said the engine looked/sounded good.* The oil sample actually took about two weeks to get back from the lab so it really wasn't a determinant in the decision process.
On the subject of spectrum oil analysis...I do sampling of the engine oil and the trans fluid once a year*in August or September*and I have six years of tests as a baseline.*
To answer your question the general/hull survey will answer the questions about buying the boat.* The engine survey justs confirms what you discovered during the hull survey and the sea trial.* Find a good hull surveyor.
sunchaser
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Many walk from buying a vessel due to less than satisfactory oil analysis. I did it once due to high copper in a transmission oil sample and the owner unwilling to foot the entire repair bill if problems were found during a tear down.
Waiting for oil analysis results is a wise thing to do IMHO. It is less to do with metals and more to do with coolant in many engines. Some engines are prone/endemic to*HX failure and others cracked heads, either issue allowing coolant into the oil.
Waiting for oil analysis results is a wise thing to do IMHO. It is less to do with metals and more to do with coolant in many engines. Some engines are prone/endemic to*HX failure and others cracked heads, either issue allowing coolant into the oil.
JD
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This is true,* If the engine turns up to the proper RPM at full throttle, the tach is close to the actual RPM (verified with a Photo Tach), the thermostat opens at the proper temperature you are about done.* Leaks of oil or antifreeze should have shown up on the general survey.* The folks doing the engine survey can't see inside the engine*either.* So unless you include pulling the injectors and testing them and doing a compression (which costs more) you don't really get much more than what a good general survey should catch.
I do not agree that the oil samples on an engine are useless.*One only is not of much use, that is true, and especially if it is done on new oil.**The first one done is just a base line and when you get it done by Gregory Poole Caterpillar the first one states,"ALL TESTS APPEAR NORMAL. MORE SAMPLE HISTORY NEEDED TO ESTABLISH A NORMAL WEAR TREND. CONTINUE SAMPLING AT NORMAL INTERVAL."<font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>*</font><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>*
But even on the first one it tells you a little more then just*the condition of the oil.*** It tells you if there is any Antifreeze,*Water,*Salt Water or*Fuel*present all of which could be tell tale signs of things to come.
***Lab #************************** ST *OXI *NIT* SUL* W A *F * PFC*** V100D180-40347-0505**** 10 *12* **8*** 18* *N* N* N *2.12* *12.3Ag = Silver, Al = Aluminum, B = Boron, Ca = Calcium, Cr = Chromium, Cu = Copper, Fe = Iron, P = Phosphorus, K = Potassium, Mg = Magnesium, Mo = Molybdenum, Na = Sodium, Ni = Nickel, Pb = Lead, Si = Silicon, Sn = Tin,V = Vanadium, Zn = Zinc, A = Antifreeze, F = Fuel, W = Water, P = Positive, N = Negative, T = Trace, E = Excessive, NIT = Nitration, OXI = Oxidation, ST = Soot, SUL = Sulfation, ISO = ISO Rating, PFC = Percent Fuel Content,PQI = Particle Quantifying index , NaW = Salt Water, FL Pt = Flash Point, TAN = Total Acid Number, TBN = Total Base Number, H2O = Karl Fisher result, V100 = Viscosity@100C, V40 = Viscosity@40C<font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="Arial" size="1"><font face="Arial" size="1"></font>*</font></font>
So to say it does nothing in my mind is just incorrect.
In the sale of my last boat the four oil samples I had stopped the buyer from*spending the money on*an engine survey.* He took the*four oil*analysis to the engine survey folks along with the General survey (which verified the Tach, Top engine speed in gear and out and coolant temps) and the engine survey said that was just about all they could do unless he wanted a compression test done (a compression test was done and the injectors rebuilt just 300 hours before for which the paper work was on hand). So useless, I don't think so, definitive probably not but at $15 some piece of mind for sure.
</font><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="Arial" size="1"></font>*</font>
So to say it does nothing in my mind is just incorrect.
In the sale of my last boat the four oil samples I had stopped the buyer from*spending the money on*an engine survey.* He took the*four oil*analysis to the engine survey folks along with the General survey (which verified the Tach, Top engine speed in gear and out and coolant temps) and the engine survey said that was just about all they could do unless he wanted a compression test done (a compression test was done and the injectors rebuilt just 300 hours before for which the paper work was on hand). So useless, I don't think so, definitive probably not but at $15 some piece of mind for sure.
</font>
<font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>So to say it does nothing in my mind is just incorrect.In the sale of my last boat the four oil samples I had stopped the buyer from*spending the money on*an engine survey.* He took the*four oil*analysis to the engine survey folks along with the General survey (which verified the Tach, Top engine speed in gear and out and coolant temps) and the engine survey said that was just about all they could do unless he wanted a compression test done (a compression test was done and the injectors rebuilt just 300 hours before for which the paper work was on hand). So useless, I don't think so, definitive probably not but at $15 some piece of mind for sure.</font><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>*
Avista
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We typically get the boat surveyed and pull an oil sample at the same time.* We make a decision about an engine survey based on the oil sample and sea trial engine performance and temps.* In the case of Victoria, our current boat, the oil sample on the port engine was high in sodium and it turned out we had a leaky aftercooler.* Luckily, the leak was small and recent so there was no engine damage, but the seller ended up with an $8,000 dollar repair bill, that without the oil sample, would have been my bill later.* I oil sample the engines, transmissions and generator at every change and more than once I have detected problems early that were easy to fix and saved major headaches, I believe it is very cheap insurance.**The lab I use sends the oil bottles free and only charges when they do the analysis.* The lab keeps a record*of the results and can detect*subtle changes in parameters.*
-- Edited by Avista on Monday 27th of December 2010 12:28:48 PM
-- Edited by Avista on Monday 27th of December 2010 12:28:48 PM
JD
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Gregory Poole CAT* charges I believe*$12.50 per sample kit and that includes the bottle, a*prepaid US Postal*postage container and the analysis with both a printed copy maid to you and a*PDF file e-mailed to you.
Cheap at twice the price.*
We had them done concurrently.* We flew to Alameda, CA and early the next morning inspected the boat, took it out onto San Francisco Bay for the sea trial, then took it to a boatyard on the old Navy Base where they have a Travelift.* The engine surveyor arrived and spent a couple of hours checking out the engines and generator while the boat was in the water.* Then the hull/structural surveyor arrived and did the first part of the survey with the boat in the water, then the boat was hauled and he did the second part of the survey with the boat out of the water.
