I had Battle Borne Batteries on my boat at that time advertised as the most robust and indestructible lithium batterie on the market. At the time when I bought them , I think in 2021 very expensive. $1000 each for a 100ah batterie. Watch this video on Youtube.
Battle Born Battery concerns
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socalrider
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Yeah those videos are insane.
They were supposed to be a premium brand, safer than the ubiquitous and much cheaper Chinese stuff. Looking at the stock of their parent company I think they're probably cooked. Not enough cash on the balance sheet to fix the problem, probably limited ability to raise debt or sell more stock.
They were supposed to be a premium brand, safer than the ubiquitous and much cheaper Chinese stuff. Looking at the stock of their parent company I think they're probably cooked. Not enough cash on the balance sheet to fix the problem, probably limited ability to raise debt or sell more stock.
I feel for you. I am very pro LiFePo4 and have two LiTime 460 Ah batteries in use on our trawler which I installed almost 3 years ago. Your situation frankly sucks through no fault of your own. Maybe there will be a required recall in the future, but I would hope that Dragonfly/Battle Born would replace the batteries promptly if they go bad. Best.
Here’s the original video that gives more of the back story.
I'm sorry this is long and text-heavy. But there is a photo at the bottom to sustain you! (Or just scroll down to the photo and you'll pretty much see what all my typing is about.)
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I think this has Zero to do with "improper install."
Back story: I have been yelling and shaking my fist at my computer screen about the internal postive bus bar on these batteries since I first saw the inside (I think that was a 2019 Will Prowse teardown), and then again in 2022 (a teardown done at Lithionics, IIRC on the channel "The Fit RV).
The problem I was (uselessly) shaking my first at would not be anything that could be affected by a user installation, IMO.
There is a vertical tang that is the positive connection on the outside of the battery (don't get me started on how annoying this is to fit jumpers to). I think it is brass (ugh).
That tang disappears down into the inside of the battery where it connects to the main positive internal bus bar (which you can't see unless you tear one down or watch a teardown video like I did). Sounds okay, right?
BUT, BUT....
Sandwiched in between the internal terminal tang and the internal main busbar is a sheet of black PLASTIC. So the terminal (main positive connection) tang and the busbar make no contact at all. Instead, all the power is transferred through the threaded bolt that holds the tang to the busbar (going through the plastic that separates them).
To make it worse, the bolt is aluminum. Of course that is going to expand and contract at a different rate than brass or copper (at least the main busbar inside looks like copper....).
That bolt is held in place (inside the battery) by double nuts. I wonder how tightly they could even torque the first nut on an aluminum bolt? I'd guess that's why the double nuts.
So even if this arrangement never moves, you have ISOLATED the main positive tang from the main positive bus bar (with the sheet of black plastic). This is obviously a huge no-no.
Even Battleborn makes a big deal (as one should) about how you MUST put your battery cable lugs RIGHT UP AGAINST the positive tang and make that connection tight. Not even a metal washer should be in between them. And of course this is correct. Every busbar will tell you that. Your lugs go right to the metal of the bus bar, and that "faying surface" is what carries the current. The threaded post and nut just hold things together. They do not carry the current.
So Battleborn is denying warrantly claims saying the customer's battery lugs are loose on their teminal lug. But at the same time THEIR terminal lug doesn't even really make contact with the main busbar (inside the battery, where you can't see it). The irony.
On top of that (I restrain myself from using all caps, ha ha), of course plastic can creep under load. So over time, that plastic that is sandwiched in between the tang and the busbar can deform, thin out and..... the tang will become loose. Now a horrible connection becomes an intermittent horrible connection.
ON TOP of all this, Battleborn now claims this isn't a bug; it's a safety feature! See, according to them, the plastic melts, as does the very special aluminum bolt (seems like alu melts over 1,000ºF though?) and then things disconnect and you are safe. Whew! Except they don't disconnect, because the bolt doesn't melt, and the nuts are still holding it all together. But whether the plastic creeps or melts, the tang is now loose. So you get arcing and heat.
But you know, the REAL problem is that the customers lugs are loose
I saw this way back when a friend wanted to buy BB batteries, ....... but "everyone" said they were so great. Then a couple of days ago I saw Will Prowse's new videos (now two) and read a looong thread on his forum (DIYsolar.com).
Turns out, many people have had a problem (according to posts in DIY solar forum), but BB always says they were the only one, or it was their fault due to loose lugs. They made a big deal about their 10-year warranty, but come to find out it costs a huge amount to send the batteries back in for "warrenty inspection." (Hundreds of dollars, you have to palletize even just one battery, you have to wait for a special Fedex to come to your house, etc.) and then BB charges $150 to inspect and then *maybe* it's warranteed. If not you still pay the shipping and inspection fees. But often the finding is that "the customers lugs were loose." So no replacement under warranty.
Anyway, all this to say that I have been speechless ever since I first saw that connection method (inside the battery) over 5 years ago. I almost started doubting myself as everyone said they were the bees knees. Now this. At least I don't feel "too negative" anymore.
The below pic isn't great, but here you can see the (cut away) top of the battery (near the top, the tang is where you would attach your battery cable).
Looking "inside" you can see, starting from the left, the double nuts, the tang, the black plastic piece, and then the main (copper?) internal positive bus bar. The "bolt" is aluminum.
PS: My buddy DID buy Battleborns back then, even though I was yelling at my screen and said that's crazy. He used them for a couple of years, after which time he wanted Bluetooth to see what was going on inside, plus a few more amp hours in the bank and went to Lithionics batteries.
I just went and looked at those exact two Battleborn batteries (in storage) and the tangs are not loose. He probably never charged at more than about 15 amps (was a bank of two batteries so 200ah at 12v) and back then didn't have an inverter so likewise probably never drew more than ~20 amps at a time (install was in a small camping trailer; solar charging only). But of course they are rated for much higher charging and discharging.
***************
I think this has Zero to do with "improper install."
Back story: I have been yelling and shaking my fist at my computer screen about the internal postive bus bar on these batteries since I first saw the inside (I think that was a 2019 Will Prowse teardown), and then again in 2022 (a teardown done at Lithionics, IIRC on the channel "The Fit RV).
The problem I was (uselessly) shaking my first at would not be anything that could be affected by a user installation, IMO.
There is a vertical tang that is the positive connection on the outside of the battery (don't get me started on how annoying this is to fit jumpers to). I think it is brass (ugh).
That tang disappears down into the inside of the battery where it connects to the main positive internal bus bar (which you can't see unless you tear one down or watch a teardown video like I did). Sounds okay, right?
BUT, BUT....
Sandwiched in between the internal terminal tang and the internal main busbar is a sheet of black PLASTIC. So the terminal (main positive connection) tang and the busbar make no contact at all. Instead, all the power is transferred through the threaded bolt that holds the tang to the busbar (going through the plastic that separates them).
To make it worse, the bolt is aluminum. Of course that is going to expand and contract at a different rate than brass or copper (at least the main busbar inside looks like copper....).
That bolt is held in place (inside the battery) by double nuts. I wonder how tightly they could even torque the first nut on an aluminum bolt? I'd guess that's why the double nuts.
So even if this arrangement never moves, you have ISOLATED the main positive tang from the main positive bus bar (with the sheet of black plastic). This is obviously a huge no-no.
Even Battleborn makes a big deal (as one should) about how you MUST put your battery cable lugs RIGHT UP AGAINST the positive tang and make that connection tight. Not even a metal washer should be in between them. And of course this is correct. Every busbar will tell you that. Your lugs go right to the metal of the bus bar, and that "faying surface" is what carries the current. The threaded post and nut just hold things together. They do not carry the current.
So Battleborn is denying warrantly claims saying the customer's battery lugs are loose on their teminal lug. But at the same time THEIR terminal lug doesn't even really make contact with the main busbar (inside the battery, where you can't see it). The irony.
On top of that (I restrain myself from using all caps, ha ha), of course plastic can creep under load. So over time, that plastic that is sandwiched in between the tang and the busbar can deform, thin out and..... the tang will become loose. Now a horrible connection becomes an intermittent horrible connection.
ON TOP of all this, Battleborn now claims this isn't a bug; it's a safety feature! See, according to them, the plastic melts, as does the very special aluminum bolt (seems like alu melts over 1,000ºF though?) and then things disconnect and you are safe. Whew! Except they don't disconnect, because the bolt doesn't melt, and the nuts are still holding it all together. But whether the plastic creeps or melts, the tang is now loose. So you get arcing and heat.
But you know, the REAL problem is that the customers lugs are loose
I saw this way back when a friend wanted to buy BB batteries, ....... but "everyone" said they were so great. Then a couple of days ago I saw Will Prowse's new videos (now two) and read a looong thread on his forum (DIYsolar.com).
Turns out, many people have had a problem (according to posts in DIY solar forum), but BB always says they were the only one, or it was their fault due to loose lugs. They made a big deal about their 10-year warranty, but come to find out it costs a huge amount to send the batteries back in for "warrenty inspection." (Hundreds of dollars, you have to palletize even just one battery, you have to wait for a special Fedex to come to your house, etc.) and then BB charges $150 to inspect and then *maybe* it's warranteed. If not you still pay the shipping and inspection fees. But often the finding is that "the customers lugs were loose." So no replacement under warranty.
Anyway, all this to say that I have been speechless ever since I first saw that connection method (inside the battery) over 5 years ago. I almost started doubting myself as everyone said they were the bees knees. Now this. At least I don't feel "too negative" anymore.
The below pic isn't great, but here you can see the (cut away) top of the battery (near the top, the tang is where you would attach your battery cable).
Looking "inside" you can see, starting from the left, the double nuts, the tang, the black plastic piece, and then the main (copper?) internal positive bus bar. The "bolt" is aluminum.
PS: My buddy DID buy Battleborns back then, even though I was yelling at my screen and said that's crazy. He used them for a couple of years, after which time he wanted Bluetooth to see what was going on inside, plus a few more amp hours in the bank and went to Lithionics batteries.
I just went and looked at those exact two Battleborn batteries (in storage) and the tangs are not loose. He probably never charged at more than about 15 amps (was a bank of two batteries so 200ah at 12v) and back then didn't have an inverter so likewise probably never drew more than ~20 amps at a time (install was in a small camping trailer; solar charging only). But of course they are rated for much higher charging and discharging.
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Thank you for reading my tome.
It's a safety feature, haven't you heard?
Fair enough since copper is the same material - as long as it's tight you are just adding more conductive material and the degradation of the connection would be super minimal if at all. Sometimes you need things to match up to avoid strain when tightening down.
It's a safety feature, haven't you heard?
Dang. That smarts. They were not cheap in their day.
But good to catch it before you have a problem. If I had some in something like a relatively expendable shed, the posts were not loose (yet), and I was charging and loading at a very low C-rate..... I might keep running them. Don't think I'd do that on my one precious boat though.
Some people are cutting them open and implementing various fixes, but.... again would not do that on the boat.
I guess to look on the bright side there is now a selection of new batteries that have a larger amp hour capacity per square foot (so fewer connections and fuses), and will have bluetooth so you can see what's going on inside. Guessing none of them have the internal busbar connections spaced apart with plastic either...
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Comodave
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Too bad, I guess their marketing was better than the product.
SteveK
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Wonder which popular brand will be next to have an unexpected failure.
@SteveK said:
Wonder which popular brand will be next to have an unexpected failure.
I suppose it will happen at some point. That said, if anyone looked closely at the teardown videos of the Battleborn (way back in 2019 for the first one I saw), it wouldn't really have been unexpected. IMO, it's a design that ignored basic electrical principles (i.e. you must have good contact where amps will flow).
Of course no-one should *have* to watch a teardown video before buying a product. You should be able to believe them to a certain extent. Especially a "premium," "made in USA" "10-year warranted" one. Battleborn were not shy about tooting their horn.
I do look at the teardowns for various batteries though. There's more inside now than there was with "dumb" hunks of lead. I like to see.
This is on BB's home page right this minute. Red arrow (which I inserted) points to one of the 100ah batteries:
Wonder which popular brand will be next to have an unexpected failure.
I suppose it will happen at some point. That said, if anyone looked closely at the teardown videos of the Battleborn (way back in 2019 for the first one I saw), it wouldn't really have been unexpected. IMO, it's a design that ignored basic electrical principles (i.e. you must have good contact where amps will flow).
Of course no-one should *have* to watch a teardown video before buying a product. You should be able to believe them to a certain extent. Especially a "premium," "made in USA" "10-year warranted" one. Battleborn were not shy about tooting their horn.
I do look at the teardowns for various batteries though. There's more inside now than there was with "dumb" hunks of lead. I like to see.
This is on BB's home page right this minute. Red arrow (which I inserted) points to one of the 100ah batteries:
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guy with a boat
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Does anyone know how far across the product line this “feature” was used? Does the 270AH (8D size) have the same concerns?
On the plus side, there are thousands of these Battleborns out there in the world and this issue is jut now discovered. They must have functioned well to date or it would have come up sooner.
On the plus side, there are thousands of these Battleborns out there in the world and this issue is jut now discovered. They must have functioned well to date or it would have come up sooner.
There is discussion about this now in the DIY solar forum. So far I don't believe anyone has torn one of those down. There is, however, one fellow who has torn down the GC-2 version of the 100ah battery (upright form factor). It has the same issue (only instead of an aluminum hex-headed bolt carrying the current, it's an aluminum flat headed bolt, due it seems to lesser case clearance).
Obviously they have not all gone bad. My buddy's pair (now in storage) seem fine. However, they were very lightly loaded and charged. About .1C (point one) most of the time.
You could imagine how a higher C-rate would try to put more current through the bolt and perhaps accelerate the deformation of the plastic (heat), at which point the tang would loosen and the bolt make even less good contact (more heat).
OTOH, there are quite a few people coming to the thread, who maybe thought it was just them who had an isolated problem. If they sent them in for warranty they may never have seen the inside. Seems it was often said to be the customers lug being loose. These peopole are now relating that theirs went bad some time ago (most have moved on by now to other batteries; some of the failures were years ago).
Will Prowse, the fellow who tears down batteries on youtube, sometimes gives his extra batteries away (not the torn down ones, but apparently he sometimes gets more than one) afterward. He gave one fellow four BattleBorns years ago. Having seen the new information, that fellow contacted Will recently to let him know that all four of his had gone bad some time ago (he disposed of them back then).
Although I think even "intact" there are some very questionable choices inside the battery, one easy way to test for really obvious problems is to wiggle the positive post (which should not wiggle, but may). Or see if the red substance that surrounds the positive post has a more brownish look (on my buddy's stored batteries it still looks red).
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Serene
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I always thought this, given how many 'influencers' they paid to spout their product. I use the formula where the quality of a product is inverse to the number of influencers a company uses to push product.
Precision Sails comes to mind as another company along the lines of BB. i.e. has their product pushed by influencers.
Curious when are washers necessary?
My thinking is any washer adds multiple surfaces that by nature are likely less that the conductivity of a solid material. Agree copper is good but does anyone believe a stack of 5 or10 washers is equal to a copper bar? Especially after some time, tempncycling, & ixidation?
SteveK
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In addition to no washer under the wire,
I read somewhere suggesting that when needed to have two wires on on bat post (as in a bank) that the lower wire be the incoming from charge source. Maybe just a suggestion, but has some logic to it.
Delta Riverat
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I like to put the highest current cable on first followed by the smallers. A copper washer is useful if the bolt is long enough to bottom on the blind hole. Litime even warns to use if lug less than 2 mm.
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Well, this is why I said "when necessary". Needing 5 or 10 shows a lack of planning. But there are times when a washer will lift a lug sufficient to keep it from being stressed by another or some other obstruction. The fact is that even in a simple circuit you have lots of copper or tin interfaces: battery cable to fuse, fuse to inverter lets say, I count 8 best case. So we hope and trust they are reliable.
KnotYet
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Great! My boat came with 4(!) 270 AH BB's that were installed 3-5 years ago and little used.
I think the PO's who bought them were planning to go cruising but then moved to Portugal.
At least now I have something new to worry about... seriously though, I'd rather be forewarned.
I think the PO's who bought them were planning to go cruising but then moved to Portugal.
At least now I have something new to worry about... seriously though, I'd rather be forewarned.
Delta Riverat
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So far the issue seems to be with the 100 AH that used the matrix of small cylinder cells. You bigger batts may have the prismatic that would entail a different construction style.
I'm hoping that someone will send Will Prowse a BB 270 "Game Changer"* to cut into. Many people have expressed curiosity, but of course they are more expensive than the 100ah (which Will did just buy a new one of from Amazon...).Great! My boat came with 4(!) 270 AH BB's that were installed 3-5 years ago and little used.
I think the PO's who bought them were planning to go cruising but then moved to Portugal.
At least now I have something new to worry about... seriously though, I'd rather be forewarned.
Just going by the photo it looks like they are still using their "chainplate tang" style terminals, but they look slightly different (to me they look thinner, have a rounded top, and more coppery color). So curious what they look like inside.
Personally, even if they were well-connected inside the battery, I dislike that tang style. Give me a stud so the cable lugs can rotate into best position. (Especially if batteries are going to be nose-to-tail lengthwise.) But of course that's just a preference and in and of itself doesn't say anything is dangerous.
*Petty of me, but I always thought that name was so grandiose.
For those that don't me those lugs you can get a conventional batty post that bolts yo the tang. I had some AGM UPS battys a while back that I used them on. If concerned use some copper loaded anti-seize between.
I should probably correct when I said I liked "posts." I didn't mean like car battery posts - though I certainly made it sound like that. In fact thinking it through, the usual marine "post" is actually a female threaded hole (possibly on a raised column a la Lifeline, but sometimes close to the battery surface) and then you put a machine screw through the lug holes and into the threaded hole.
If you have the BB batteries end to end (aka nose to tail), the tangs make it very awkward unless you have huge "hoops" of cable going upwards or outwards -- or you get creative bending lugs. Or add some sort of tinned copper home-bent connector (ugh).
At least they are fairly burly (ahem, on the outside of the battery). I used to see many of the Rolls battery "flag" terminals (less burly) broken off, if either the cables were not slack or the batteries moved just a bit too much.
If you have the BB batteries end to end (aka nose to tail), the tangs make it very awkward unless you have huge "hoops" of cable going upwards or outwards -- or you get creative bending lugs. Or add some sort of tinned copper home-bent connector (ugh).
At least they are fairly burly (ahem, on the outside of the battery). I used to see many of the Rolls battery "flag" terminals (less burly) broken off, if either the cables were not slack or the batteries moved just a bit too much.
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We installed 12 of the 12v, 100 ah Dragonfly Energy batteries sold by Battleborn back in 2022. Reasons I went with BB were the 10 year warranty, and their reputation. . . . I'm away from the boat right now, but will be checking the terminals as soon as I return home. Hopefully they're all okay . . .
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We are beta testers
BTW, if anyone would like to see/hear about the original construction a bit more, I watched this video back in 2022. A youtube channel called "The Fit RV" toured Lithionics and they opened a "competitor" battery (obviously a BB 100ah) to have a look. Now clearly this is Lithionics having a chance to toot their horn, but you do get a close up look and discussion of the arrangement I had noted: Plastic between the main terminal and the main busbar with only the fastener/nut carrying the current.
Construction starts at about 1:03
I also thought it was interesting how with the cylindrical cells they are all connected by welding (I guess you would call it welding? Tacking? Not sure of correct term) their contacts to a large metal sheet (on the end of the battery).
BTW, they tested for resistance through the battery (which looked like a brand new one) from terminal to terminal (i.e. where you would fasten your lug) and it was 8 mΩ. So if you own these batteries it might be interesting to see what you get doing that same measurement (along with checking that the post is rigid and looking at the red surround).
(For comparison the more high-end Lithionics 320ah was 2.1 mΩ. And the Lithionics 130ah -- a more fair comparison -- was 3.39 mΩ)
Construction starts at about 1:03
I also thought it was interesting how with the cylindrical cells they are all connected by welding (I guess you would call it welding? Tacking? Not sure of correct term) their contacts to a large metal sheet (on the end of the battery).
BTW, they tested for resistance through the battery (which looked like a brand new one) from terminal to terminal (i.e. where you would fasten your lug) and it was 8 mΩ. So if you own these batteries it might be interesting to see what you get doing that same measurement (along with checking that the post is rigid and looking at the red surround).
(For comparison the more high-end Lithionics 320ah was 2.1 mΩ. And the Lithionics 130ah -- a more fair comparison -- was 3.39 mΩ)
BTW, if anyone would like to see more, in a very methodical and non-hyped way, have a look at these two (relatively short, ~5 minute) videos. The poster is not monetized, and is not a "battery guy" but more of an electronics guy. He found two BB 100ah batteries at the dump (improperly disposed of) so decided to grab them, see what was inside, and then at the very least dispose of them properly.
He is in a humid climate (Hawai'i) and you can see moisture damage inside the batteries. Based on other electronics he has opened up (that he knew the entire history of), he thinks the moisture was not actual water intrusion, but rather moisture that gets sucked in during heating/cooling cycles.
Anyway, both videos were very interesting. He touches on the busbar, but also shows more of the rest of the construction. Worth a watch, IMO.
As is often the case there is some interesting discussion and more information in the comments.
First one:
Second one:
He is in a humid climate (Hawai'i) and you can see moisture damage inside the batteries. Based on other electronics he has opened up (that he knew the entire history of), he thinks the moisture was not actual water intrusion, but rather moisture that gets sucked in during heating/cooling cycles.
Anyway, both videos were very interesting. He touches on the busbar, but also shows more of the rest of the construction. Worth a watch, IMO.
As is often the case there is some interesting discussion and more information in the comments.
First one:
Second one:
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