Awful first attempt to buy a boat - lessons learned

[Jklotz]

The president should have informed you of the sale and what was happening. I would have a tough time buying a boat from them in the future. The OP might have not understood the boat buying process but I would have expected better communication from the company.

Even though the OP is talking about loosing the money for the flights, I suspect the OP is more upset with loosing the boat after all of the work he has done and lack of communication with the company.

Regarding money for plane flights. We have traveled across the US, once to China, two trips to the NL, and one to Ireland to see boats and talk to boat builders. Still don't have a boat but we know who we would have build a boat, and more importantly, who we don't want to build us a boat.

Thanks for that. One thing to clarify; I don't think he had a responsibility to tell me he had a sale lined up or who he was talking to, only that without a contract, he couldn't guarantee the boat would be available.

You are correct, the price for 2 plane tickets and a hotel is not much in terms of the overall picture.

 

[dannc]

Thanks for that. One thing to clarify; I don't think he had a responsibility to tell me he had a sale lined up or who he was talking to, only that without a contract, he couldn't guarantee the boat would be available.

You are correct, the price for 2 plane tickets and a hotel is not much in terms of the overall picture.

If he knew you had made reservations for flights to see the boat, he should have told you a sale was possible before you arrived. He could have used that conversation to tell you that you need to sign a contract to lock in the boat. Unfortunately, as other people have posted on this discussion and others, communication can be a problem when buying a boat. Your experience is unfortunately too common.

It sounds to me that you REALLY wanted this boat and that loosing it is more painful than the loss of travel money. If not too late, take the flight, go walk the dock, and take a look around. Who knows what will happen.

 

[Jklotz]

If he knew you had made reservations for flights to see the boat, he should have told you a sale was possible before you arrived. He could have used that conversation to tell you that you need to sign a contract to lock in the boat. Unfortunately, as other people have posted on this discussion and others, communication can be a problem when buying a boat. Your experience is unfortunately too common.

It sounds to me that you REALLY wanted this boat and that loosing it is more painful than the loss of travel money. If not too late, take the flight, go walk the dock, and take a look around. Who knows what will happen.

Yup, headed to trawlerfest next week. Our broker is going to be there and show us a few boats.

 

[Nick14]

Hmmm, guess my experience wasn't a one off. Jeez, you got put through the ringer! Some of what you posted was downright shady! At least the owner, in my case, was decent enough to email as soon as he had a contract, which was several days before the travel date. Had I been in your shoes, I'd have been pissed off!

I've heard a similar quote - "Man plans, God laughs".

FWIW, I've talked with a number of other boat shoppers who've had very similar experiences to mine. It doesn't make it good or right or nice, it's just the way it is. Seemingly with buying or selling anything (houses and cars included), though maybe even more so with boats for some reason .

Also FWIW in my experiences, getting a call from a broker or builder at any time once they've received an offer on a boat I'm interested in is a very rare courtesy. Most just don't bother to do it. Actually, what else could a seller do? It's an assumed given that everyone knows first money on the table gets the product. Making a call to other interested people once an offer is received takes time and more so the thoughtfulness to even do it. It sounds simple, but most sellers don't take the time or even think to do it.

Of course I wasn't happy about making all those multi-hour, several hundred mile drives to see boats only to find out when I arrived that they 'just got an offer.' But I understood that's the way it works. I don't feel right about making an offer sight unseen just to hold a boat until I get there. I'm old school that way. I want to see and touch something before I make an offer to buy it.

But I was out of step with the reality of how things are done nowadays. I've run into so many buyers who routinely put in offers on multiple boats at the same time just to hold them until they got there, knowing up front they would decline most (usually all) of the boats. I didn't want to play that way, and as a result paid the price of many long road trips ending up being a waste of time (though I did come upon many good seafood places that way, and saw it as serendipitous little adventures to places I otherwise wouldn't have discovered).

FWIW a potential benefit of dealing with a builder vs. a broker is that most builders are willing to provide support for a boat they sell, even a used one. Especially if you are relatively new to this type of boat, having a builder spend a day or two teaching you about the systems and operation of a boat can be invaluable. It's expertise most brokers don't have and are unwilling to do (unless you pay them). Buying even a used boat from a builder also often gets you additional post-purchase support when the inevitable problems happen.

 

[leeman]

The president should have informed you of the sale and what was happening. I would have a tough time buying a boat from them in the future. The OP might have not understood the boat buying process but I would have expected better communication from the company.

Even though the OP is talking about loosing the money for the flights, I suspect the OP is more upset with loosing the boat after all of the work he has done and lack of communication with the company.

Regarding money for plane flights. We have traveled across the US, once to China, two trips to the NL, and one to Ireland to see boats and talk to boat builders. Still don't have a boat but we know who we would have build a boat, and more importantly, who we don't want to build us a boat.

From a lot of the comments here, it sounds like the brokerage business is circling the drain. Buyers and sellers, both, appear to be trying to outfox the other. Sure, not all, but enough that something better is likely come along and dominate the market. Remember, also, there is a seller in this example. I wonder what he would think about the brokerages behaviour. I have a long story about a real estate agent pissing off the wrong seller- unfortunately we were the prospective buyer. (In the end, my wife and I were the only ones that came out smiling.)

leeman

 

[Nick14]

From a lot of the comments here, it sounds like the brokerage business is circling the drain. Buyers and sellers, both, appear to be trying to outfox the other. Sure, not all, but enough that something better is likely come along and dominate the market. Remember, also, there is a seller in this example. I wonder what he would think about the brokerages behaviour. I have a long story about a real estate agent pissing off the wrong seller- unfortunately we were the prospective buyer. (In the end, my wife and I were the only ones that came out smiling.)

leeman

The boat brokerage business model is broken and needs to not just circle the drain but be flushed and replaced. IMHO most (not all, but most) boat brokers have for too long gotten used to getting paid egregiously for doing very little.The standard 10% broker's free on boats is nothing less than rapacious and (again IMHO though brokers will certainly disagree) undeserved.

The hot pandemic market seemed to bring out the worst in people. For some that taste of easy money, and the bad habits that went along with it, won't be easily forgotten. The NAR lawsuit over real estate practices gave some hope for change -

https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/what-the-2-billion-realtor-lawsuit-means-for-homebuyers-and-sellers

but unfortunately, in the new anti-consumer climate we're living in, the recent decision regarding a similar suit against boat brokers extinguishes that hope -

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/us-yacht-brokers-defeat-antitrust-lawsuit-over-commission-fees-2025-01-21/

It's now up to buyers and sellers. Do business with people who show integrity, forthrightness, honesty, and ethics, and avoid the unscrupulous ones.

 

[Jklotz]

I've run into so many buyers who routinely put in offers on multiple boats at the same time just to hold them until they got there, knowing up front they would decline most (usually all) of the boats. I didn't want to play that way, and as a result paid the price of many long road trips ending up being a waste of time (though I did come upon many good seafood places that way, and saw it as serendipitous little adventures to places I otherwise wouldn't have discovered).

I'd imagine that happens a lot. Heck, I'm not going to make any travel plans again without putting in an offer first. It doesn't feel right to me, but apparently that's how things are done.

 

[Nick14]

I'd imagine that happens a lot. Heck, I'm not going to make any travel plans again without putting in an offer first. It doesn't feel right to me, but apparently that's how things are done.

I completely agree . It doesn't feel right to me either, to make an offer on something when you know there's little chance you're actually going to buy it. Doing it just to hold it to be able to see it and knowing it's most likely you're going to pass on it.

It both seems unethical to me (even though many brokers told me to do it), and I was also nervous about the risks of getting my deposit back (since an 'offer' isn't considered official until the broker receives a deposit). I described the shady and unscrupulous comments one broker made about how long it would take for me to get my deposit back if I passed ("it's complicated", "it's difficult to say").

We're all victims of our own past experiences, and one time I did leave a deposit with a bona fide offer on a boat I was interested in, which I subsequently passed on after the survey. It took several months and the intervention of a lawyer to finally get my deposit back.

Incredulously it's just the way it's done now. The choice is either play the game by the rules (as crazy and unethical as they seem), or risk having many disappointments and serendipitous travel adventures like I did (the seafood places I found were fun, but not worth all the travel).

 

[slowgoesit]

Many of the "brokers" who we worked with when we were looking for our boat weren't interested in doing much of anything to assist us in our endeavor. Comments from these "professionals" included:

"You'll have to put in an offer, with a deposit before we'll show you the boat", to

"If you don't submit an offer above asking price, I'm not even going to present it to the sellers.", to

"That boat is sold. I don't have time to remove "sold" boats from our advertising, so just come down and I'll let you know what we have." . . This one from a broker 1500 miles away from our home . . .

This was in 2019 and 2020 (We closed on our current boat in January of 2021) and it was during the "Golden days" of a dream Seller's Market! One which will probably not repeat in our lifetimes.

Another refused to pass on our offer to the seller, because he said it was an "insult". He also blatantly lied to us on answers to specific questions on the condition of the boat. How do I know? Because we ran into the seller in Alaska while he was on a friends boat, and while talking, we realized he and his wife had owned the boat we'd put the offer in on. We talked about it a little, his boat finally sold after 18 months, and for significantly less than we had offered (which the broker refused to pass on). He also said the two aft (lazeratte) fuel tanks leaked when they had purchased the boat 17 years before, and that they had informed the broker of that fact, among other items, in writing on a "fact sheet" the broker requested when he listed the boat. He was pissed that the broker never told him about our offer.

We're actually glad that that deal didn't go through as we are really happy with our current boat! Anyway,
I have a long memory, and a list of the brokers whom I will never choose to do business with, even if they were the seller's broker. I've actually been approached by several of those brokers since then, you know, the ones who wouldn't give me the time of day back when we were looking, and who treated us so shabbily. You know what? They didn't understand me when I told them "I wouldn't work with you if you were giving away boats for free, and I'll tell all my friends who want broker recommendations the same thing . . . . ". I also tell my friends, I have a list, would you like me to send you a copy, along with times and dates and why I'd never deal with them?!? But of Course!"

The guy who wouldn't pass on our offer is now working for well known company on the East Coast. Unfortunately, that's tainted me toward the entire brokerage firm now . . . I've spoken personally to the owner of the brokerage, both via PM, and on the phone, and was impressed by him, but, sorry, his choice of hires turned me off to his entire brokerage, and that's just the way it is.

It's no wonder these . . . people . . . don't understand what goes around, comes around. . . . It's a Karma thing, and Karma can sometimes be a real . . . . bear.

Oh, another comment, there ARE brokers out there who act responsibly, and professionally. Case in point, the seller's broker we worked with when we bought our boat was a delight to deal with by and large. He took the time to answer our questions, spent 1.5 hours at the boat on face time with me, before his cell phone battery died, and was clear when he didn't know the answers, didn't make us stuff to please us, and even got us in touch with the Sellers. That, and the Seller's themselves (and the boat) was what sold the boat to us. For those where are interested, his name is Eric Blendheim of Fairhaven Yachts in Seattle.

You've got to understand, all brokers, real estate agents, and car sales associates are the enemy, but as long as you realize that, it doesn't prohibit you from working professionally with them. Eric, I would put in that basket. I'd work with him again. Hope this helps, now off of my soap box . . .

 

[Nick14]

Many of the "brokers" who we worked with when we were looking for our boat weren't interested in doing much of anything to assist us in our endeavor. Comments from these "professionals" included:

"You'll have to put in an offer, with a deposit before we'll show you the boat", to

"If you don't submit an offer above asking price, I'm not even going to present it to the sellers.", to

"That boat is sold. I don't have time to remove "sold" boats from our advertising, so just come down and I'll let you know what we have." . . This one from a broker 1500 miles away from our home . . .

This was in 2019 and 2020 (We closed on our current boat in January of 2021) and it was during the "Golden days" of a dream Seller's Market! One which will probably not repeat in our lifetimes.

Another refused to pass on our offer to the seller, because he said it was an "insult". He also blatantly lied to us on answers to specific questions on the condition of the boat. How do I know? Because we ran into the seller in Alaska while he was on a friends boat, and while talking, we realized he and his wife had owned the boat we'd put the offer in on. We talked about it a little, his boat finally sold after 18 months, and for significantly less than we had offered (which the broker refused to pass on). He also said the two aft (lazeratte) fuel tanks leaked when they had purchased the boat 17 years before, and that they had informed the broker of that fact, among other items, in writing on a "fact sheet" the broker requested when he listed the boat. He was pissed that the broker never told him about our offer.

We're actually glad that that deal didn't go through as we are really happy with our current boat! Anyway,
I have a long memory, and a list of the brokers whom I will never choose to do business with, even if they were the seller's broker. I've actually been approached by several of those brokers since then, you know, the ones who wouldn't give me the time of day back when we were looking, and who treated us so shabbily. You know what? They didn't understand me when I told them "I wouldn't work with you if you were giving away boats for free, and I'll tell all my friends who want broker recommendations the same thing . . . . ". I also tell my friends, I have a list, would you like me to send you a copy, along with times and dates and why I'd never deal with them?!? But of Course!"

The guy who wouldn't pass on our offer is now working for well known company on the East Coast. Unfortunately, that's tainted me toward the entire brokerage firm now . . . I've spoken personally to the owner of the brokerage, both via PM, and on the phone, and was impressed by him, but, sorry, his choice of hires turned me off to his entire brokerage, and that's just the way it is.

It's no wonder these . . . people . . . don't understand what goes around, comes around. . . . It's a Karma thing, and Karma can sometimes be a real . . . . bear.

Oh, another comment, there ARE brokers out there who act responsibly, and professionally. Case in point, the seller's broker we worked with when we bought our boat was a delight to deal with by and large. He took the time to answer our questions, spent 1.5 hours at the boat on face time with me, before his cell phone battery died, and was clear when he didn't know the answers, didn't make us stuff to please us, and even got us in touch with the Sellers. That, and the Seller's themselves (and the boat) was what sold the boat to us. For those where are interested, his name is Eric Blendheim of Fairhaven Yachts in Seattle.

You've got to understand, all brokers, real estate agents, and car sales associates are the enemy, but as long as you realize that, it doesn't prohibit you from working professionally with them. Eric, I would put in that basket. I'd work with him again. Hope this helps, now off of my soap box . . .

We've had amazingly similar experiences !

I've also come to the exact same conclusions as you, as well as a very short list of brokers I've had good experiences with and with whom I would work with in the future.

 

[SteveK]

Unfortuneately, most of them are order takers, just like realtors.

 

[tiltrider1]

Funny fact. I don’t know any active boat brokers. All the good ones retired during COVID. They didn’t retire because businesses suddenly made them rich, they retired partially because of COVID and partially because their investments shot up to a point it made no sense to work. This is actually true for a large portion of the late baby boomer generation.

COVID pushed a lot of workers into early retirement. This in turn promoted a larger number of inexperienced works. We have all experienced a down turn in customer service because of this.

However, those of us who have survived hard times know what is about to happen. People are getting out of car sales. A job that was easy for the last 5 years has suddenly become hard. Watch the same thing happen with boats. Selling a boat is about to get a lot harder.

 

[slowgoesit]

That's why I recommend selling your Helmsman 38 on your own. No one is going to take the care in the pictures, and boat description that you will take. I'd also advertise in the free classifieds of Cruisersforum, and it might be a good idea to join MTOA ($65.00/year) if you decide to sell it yourself.

 

[Jklotz]

I agree, when the market shifts, a lot of these guys will be out of work. Much like real estate brokers, seen lot's of them come and go over the years.

 

[BruceK]

Some displaced "car" people will, as before,migrate to boats. Doubt it`s a good thing, but inevitable.