Are my lithium batteries toast?

[Blues]

I had my starter replaced and, for reasons unknown, they apparently used the lithium house bank to start the boat and may have fried the batteries. I check my battery capacity every time I am on the boat. Tuesday I had 200 amp-hrs and today, Thursday, after the starter was replaced, I’ve got zero. I ran the charger for several hours and it still shows zero. Is there something I’m missing and can these batteries be revived? Are there other tests I should be doing?
Tomorrow I’ll get in touch with the battery manufacturer.
Lots more to the story which I’ll share later but for now I wanted to keep it simple.
And help greatly appreciated.

 

[Barking Sands]

Do you have Bluetooth? Does it show the position of the charge and discharge mosfet? What brand and is the top removable? Does the app show a voltage? Can you measure voltage at the terminals? Keep in mind any voltage measurement less than about 10.0 volts will be "ghost voltage" and is just bleeding through the fets and not representative of cell/pack voltage.

What charger are you using? Tried other charge sources?

ETA...Its also possible that since it was connected to the starter they blew a fuse and no charge or discharge is happening. Check any fuses.

 

[tiltrider1]

I’m thinking along the lines of a tripped BMS or fuse. What brand of LFP?

 

[Blues]

The batteries are relion, no bt that I know of. I have a Balmar SG200 monitor which indicates 13.4 vdc, ie normal. I can easily access the batteries and will verify the voltage at the batteries tomorrow.

 

[slowgoesit]

I would contact Relion, and ask the horses mouth! Sounds more like whatever is "reading zero" is the issue, and your batts are just fine. What exactly is it that is "reading zero"?
Leaning toward something like David suggested . . .
Please keep us in the loop!

 

[Barking Sands]

The batteries are relion, no bt that I know of. I have a Balmar SG200 monitor which indicates 13.4 vdc, ie normal. I can easily access the batteries and will verify the voltage at the batteries tomorrow.

I bet you blew a fuse.

 

[SteveK]

You may need to apply a charge to wake them up. My batteries went to sleep (forget reason) and just turning the combine switch woke them up.

 

[SteveK]

I bet you blew a fuse.

Too simple that, but yes if the starter draw was greater, makes sense.
Looking forward to the rest of the tale.

 

[Greg QS]

Lithium are good for normal an long draw downs. They are not good for thrusters or starting high amp sudden draws. You probably shut down the bms on the batts. Follow the manufactures procedure for re starting them. Get your engines off the lithium bank.

 

[Blues]

Lithium are good for normal a long draw downs. They are not good for thrusters or starting high amp sudden draws. You probably shut down the bms on the batts. Follow the manufactures procedure for re starting them. Get your engines off the lithium bank.

I have separate circuits for house and starter complete with dedicated batteries for each. The only connection is the Blue Seas dual battery switch which I only use in position 1 as intended. The mechanic who changed the starter left it in the combined position, which has a bright yellow caution sign on it.
I requested only that the starter be changed and that I would hook up the electrics, I disconnected the starter battery prior as it would be easy to short out the battery cable. I did this as I didn’t trust the mechanic to screw it up ( lots of history here). I suspect what happened is he decided to hook it up anyway and when nothing happened he turned the battery switch to combined and tried to start it which would have pulled current from the house bank. When that failed he figured out that the starter battery was disconnected so he connected that and bingo, it started. Other signs that he monkeyed around with it, all at $190/hr.
Hopefully you are right about the re-set. Yesterday I collected data and will call the OEM Monday ( very limited cell service at the marina ). The data is all over the map and makes no sense from a purely electrical prospective ( my strong suit) so I’m guessing the bms is acting erratically. Old school computer would suggest a cold boot.

 

[CharlieO.]

If my batteries go into a BMS fault the manufacturer says to completely disconnect the batteries from the system and from each other for 30 minutes to let them reset.
I have never had to try it though.

 

[Mambo42]

Don't know if this helps, but might want to give it a try.
I had some lithium batteries of an underwater drone, completely drained to 0 %. If I would put them on the lithium charger, absolutely nothing would happen, the charger would think they are full.
Then I went to Youtube and found out what the problem is. The batteries need to give a signal to the charger that they can be charged and that is based on voltage in the battery. If the batteries are empty then they simply won't charge. So the solution is to do a forced charge with a non lithium charger. Then you can get the voltage back up to where the lithium charger 'sees' the battery again and from that moment you can use the normal lithium charger again.
It worked for my underwater drone, all the batteries came back to life again.
Don't know if that will work for you, but if everything else fails you may want to give it a try. So by-pass the BMS, just put a normal charger on the batteries, let them charge for a while and have it controlled by the BMS again.
Good luck, hope you will bring them back to life.

 

[Blues]

If my batteries go into a BMS fault the manufacturer says to completely disconnect the batteries from the system and from each other for 30 minutes to let them reset.
I have never had to try it though.

Easy to try, I’ll give it a go and see what happens. Thanks

 

[Blues]

Don't know if this helps, but might want to give it a try.
I had some lithium batteries of an underwater drone, completely drained to 0 %. If I would put them on the lithium charger, absolutely nothing would happen, the charger would think they are full.
Then I went to Youtube and found out what the problem is. The batteries need to give a signal to the charger that they can be charged and that is based on voltage in the battery. If the batteries are empty then they simply won't charge. So the solution is to do a forced charge with a non lithium charger. Then you can get the voltage back up to where the lithium charger 'sees' the battery again and from that moment you can use the normal lithium charger again.
It worked for my underwater drone, all the batteries came back to life again.
Don't know if that will work for you, but if everything else fails you may want to give it a try. So by-pass the BMS, just put a normal charger on the batteries, let them charge for a while and have it controlled by the BMS again.
Good luck, hope you will bring them back to life.

One possibility is that the starter pulled more current than the bms would allow and in turn shut the batteries down possibly to prevent a fire. Unless the bms got fried a re-boot would be possible and itself would be an important safety feature ( ie imagine you’re on the water and this happened, it could be really important to get those batteries back on line). Monday I find out, today I decided a nice e-bike ride was essential for my spirit. Thanks for the inputs.

 

[Delta Riverat]

The BMS should auto reset, that's why it's there.

Yeah, go to the boat and see what's up. I have 250A fuses on each positive terminal of my (3) 300AH LiFePO4 batteries for safety. If you have only 1 fuse in your LFP it may well have blown.

 

[Barking Sands]

After an overcurrent, some batteries will auto reset after 10 seconds or 30 seconds etc. Some that may have a physical switch may need to have the switch cycled on/off.
If you check fuses and they are good. Isolate the batteries and check for voltage at terminals.

 

[Blues]

The BMS should auto reset, that's why it's there.

Yeah, go to the boat and see what's up. I have 250A fuses on each positive terminal of my (3) 300AH LiFePO4 batteries for safety. If you have only 1 fuse in your LFP it may well have blown.

The house circuitry is fused and ok, the starter side is not fused which is typical. The only time there is an electrical connection between house and starter circuits is when the battery switch is set to the emergency back up position which is clearly marked.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Cool. I have my lithium bank fused and my starters not. The lithium's are the house bank. I can parallel the whole thing with a switch that requires some getting to which is why I asked.

 

[Blues]

After an overcurrent, some batteries will auto reset after 10 seconds or 30 seconds etc. Some that may have a physical switch may need to have the switch cycled on/off.
If you check fuses and they are good. Isolate the batteries and check for voltage at terminals.

It definitely didn’t reset. Relion’s literature is pretty vague about the reset function and I’m planning to discuss this with them Monday. Tomorrow I will disconnect all three batteries and test each individually via the SG 200 Balmar also will try powering my nav system as a bit of a sanity check.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I'd get a little closer with a hand held volt meter down in the engine room. See what's up right at the battery.

 

[Blues]

I'd get a little closer with a hand held volt meter down in the engine room. See what's up right at the battery.

I’ll do that too though past checks have shown good correlation between the my Klein multimeter and the SG200

 

[Delta Riverat]

Cool.

I'd want to get up close and personal just because you disconnected the start bat and the tech flipped the switch which ran the starter off the lithium. Guess he tried the starter to test which didn't work and...

Yeah, might have did it in. You don't have a fuse in the house circuit?

 

[Barking Sands]

I cant believe a single overcurrent would fry multiple batteries. I would hope not. I have tested quite a few batteries into overcurrent, including direct short...never had a failure of any of them.
Are you saying the SG200 shunt is showing 13.4 but the batteries have no output? Could a charger be supplying the 13.4 seen by the sg200?
And you say you already checked fuses and they are good?

Keep in mind when you measure voltage at each isolated batteries terminals, you may read bleed through or ghost voltage of 2 to 8 volts. But there is no actual power there. If you put even the slightest load like an LED the voltage will fall to 0. This type of measurement will be with discharge mosfet off.

If all three batteries have 0 or ghost voltage, imo they were probably just run down to below low voltage cut off. The main reason for 3 batteries to not have output is being run down.
Since there is no Bluetooth, if you get no power at terminals you may need to take the top off and measure voltage on the cell side of the bms. If it's low, like 6 or 8 volts you can charge the cell pack directly to bring it up well above 10.5v and recover the battery.

If you read normal voltage of 11 to 13.4 on the cell pack prior to bms then it seems likely bms failure.

 

[SteveK]

You may need to apply a charge to wake them up. My batteries went to sleep (forget reason) and just turning the combine switch woke them up.

Have you OP applied a charge to the batteries to wake them up?

 

[Delfin]

I had my starter replaced and, for reasons unknown, they apparently used the lithium house bank to start the boat and may have fried the batteries. I check my battery capacity every time I am on the boat. Tuesday I had 200 amp-hrs and today, Thursday, after the starter was replaced, I’ve got zero. I ran the charger for several hours and it still shows zero. Is there something I’m missing and can these batteries be revived? Are there other tests I should be doing?
Tomorrow I’ll get in touch with the battery manufacturer.
Lots more to the story which I’ll share later but for now I wanted to keep it simple.
And help greatly appreciated.

Many mfg of lithium batteries use internal wiring that will not handle the outrush current required for turning the starter. Look at the specs for the amperage requirement of the starter and the max current the Relion batteries will support. That may be your answer, and if that is what happened, then sorry but your batteries are toast.

 

[Blues]

Where we’ve gotten to:

As best I can tell the batteries are functioning normally having apparently reset themselves. Best I can tell the process is remove/fix what ever caused the problem, shut off the system, reset the system. I also applied voltage via my charger as has been suggested but have no idea if it was the fix.
The SG200 required a full reset just as if a new battery bank was installed.
That said, until I fully discharge and recharge the bank it will be impossible to know for sure if there is damage.

Thoughts and observations.
Once I considered the ‘battery’ as battery, computer, and circuit breaker it got easier to comprehend. I assume that the circuit breakers are there to prevent fire and hence avoid hefty law suits. According to Relion’s graphs which accompany the specs as the battery gets charged to max capacity the voltage will climb into the 14.6 vdc range which I observed.
Relion’s literature is fair at best. Their tech support never returned calls.
Balmar ( SG200 ) has excellent tech support, I really like the SG 200, very handy. It has a history function which indicated -141 amps which clearly wouldn’t turn a starter but might cause some overheating.

What would I do different?
I would have gone to greater lengths to prevent the mechanic from touching the electricals. Most people have a low comprehension of electricity and that would include most mechanics. If the Relions fail I will consider other brands with proper tech support and literature. Finding a different mechanic is on the to do list, easier said then done around here.

Thanks to those who have responded, your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Cool beans baby! I thought the BMS would auto reset after a time out for cool down, that's what they're supposed to do, protect the battery from overloads so there is no damage.

Kinda surprised at Relion, I looked them up and they have a high end price tag. Should also have high end support eh...

 

[Amos]

I have Relion batteries in my house bank and they have been great except if they sit for a while with no activity, they shut themselves down. If I give them a slight charge for even one minute they wake back up and all is good. You can also probably restart using the button on top of the battery but that is harder for me to get to so I haven't tried it.

 

[Blues]

I have Relion batteries in my house bank and they have been great except if they sit for a while with no activity, they shut themselves down. If I give them a slight charge for even one minute they wake back up and all is good. You can also probably restart using the button on top of the battery but that is harder for me to get to so I haven't tried it.

I don’t recall a button on mine. I pull the batteries for winter and they are good to go in the spring, i dont charge them during this stretch and they seem to lose little capacity. Also, my bilge pumps are wired directly to them.

 

[SteveK]

@Blues You should read the manual on your batteries. On mine and others what caught my attention about discharging to 50% if long term storage is planned to extend life.
I have renogy.