Any reason not to go 65' vs. 45' ?

[Mac2]

Thanks ! So not dock to dock, I envision anchoring and then some dock time to restock. This won't be for a couple of years, so in the mean time I will get familiar with all the systems and anchoring... I think most of our time will be at anchor, but that hasn't been proven out yet....
Thanks again, great perspective.

This is helpful. This is how I plan to cruise as well. I have a 15.5 foot aluminum boat with a 70 hp outboard, enclosed helm area, radar, chartplotter etc. This will be my supply boat along with fishing, crabbing etc. I carry it on the upper deck, but a lot of people tow this type of boat. I have a 10 inflatable with electric motor for the majority of my shore trips. The bigger boat will have a bigger holding tank, fuel supply, and water. My holding tank is several hundred gallons and I carry 3,500 gallons of diesel. I can use the boat as a base camp, running hydronic heat, generator and other systems without needing to visit a dock. You can do the same thing with a smaller boat, but the intervals will be shorter. Anchoring and running stability: I start noticing the motion in the anchorage when the waves are breaking at two feet-the motion is a gentle swaying. I would have moved with my 36 foot boat. I thought my port stabilizer gauge was broken (about 4 years) until I got hit with 4-5 breakers on the port beam. Then the gauge started working furiously. Point being, a boat this heavy doesn’t need stabilizers for the inside passage, but they are really nice to have.

 

[MYTraveler]

In my experience (I know some with smaller boats will disagree), a 65' boat traveling nears its hull speed will generally be more fuel efficient than a shorter boat at that same speed. For tuna fishing, being able to troll at over 8, or better yet, 8.5 knots is very important. At that speed, I get about 1.25 nmpg, while my buddy gets less than 1. Of course, if he were to slow down to 6.5 knots, he would get better economy than me (but not much). No everyone is focused on fishing, but if being able to cover a lot of ground per day is important to you, the additional length is a significant pro.

Ride comfort and the additional room and amenities that a larger boat provides is also significant. A walk in engine room, with easy outboard access is huge. The big problem is that transient dockage is often hard to find, although I am surprised that some marinas only offer transient dockage to larger vessels.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks ! So not dock to dock, I envision anchoring and then some dock time to restock. This won't be for a couple of years, so in the mean time I will get familiar with all the systems and anchoring... I think most of our time will be at anchor, but that hasn't been proven out yet....
Thanks again, great perspective.
OH and not live aboard

Our plan was to anchor out mostly and only hit marinas to provision. Turns out we love to travel inland so marinas have become a mainstay. Also repairs are difficult unless in a marina.

I suspect a lot of people start out thinking they'll anchor out but spend a lot of time in marinas. I suspect the inverse is not true - few people plan to stay in marinas but end up anchoring out a lot.

Right now, we are paying around $12/nt (monthly rate) for marina for our 36-footer, including electricity. Transient would be more - most we've paid is around $45/nt. Three guys are just finishing washing our boat including all covers and dinghy. Around $100 including tip.

If money matters, something to be said for a smaller boat.

Peter

 

[Frosty]

Another consideration, from my perspective. I anchor out almost all the time, but will occasionally take a marina slip. I loathe planning those in advance. Because my boat is not huge (in my case 25'-ish though I'm not saying you should go that small), I can pretty much always get a marina spot same day. Being shallow-drafted also helps because sometimes there are slips in a part of the marina that has slightly silted in or is just always shallower, and those are available to boats that can use them.

Shallower draft is also nice in anchorages. I can sidle into the shallower areas where there is plenty of space, and they are often more sheltered too.

OTOH, nothing is absolute: Some deeper drafted more stable boats can take rougher anchorage spots that would be miserable for me but are fine for them.

In the PNW the shallow drafted part is probably not that valuable. But not being "the hardest boat to find a slip for" could be useful. Especially if you may be wanted to find a slip slightly spur of the moment (while you are sorting out your preferred cruising style especially).

If someone knows otherwise, feel free to point it out. I don't take slips often enough to be anything like an expert.

 

[Mac2]

Our plan was to anchor out mostly and only hit marinas to provision. Turns out we love to travel inland so marinas have become a mainstay. Also repairs are difficult unless in a marina.

I suspect a lot of people start out thinking they'll anchor out but spend a lot of time in marinas. I suspect the inverse is not true - few people plan to stay in marinas but end up anchoring out a lot.

Right now, we are paying around $12/nt (monthly rate) for marina for our 36-footer, including electricity. Transient would be more - most we've paid is around $45/nt. Three guys are just finishing washing our boat including all covers and dinghy. Around $100 including tip.

If money matters, something to be said for a smaller boat.

Peter

Not to be contrary, I’m interested in your experience. I view staying at a marina (while traveling) like staying in a trailer park. I prefer isolation vs socializing. Do you mean inland waters as in no places to anchor? OP mentions the coast and possible Alaska. Not sure if he means the inside passage, or pacific coast. If it’s the pacific coast, I would be staying at a lot of docks too.

 

[Frosty]

Not to be contrary, I’m interested in your experience. I view staying at a marina (while traveling) like staying in a trailer park. I prefer isolation vs socializing. Do you mean inland waters as in no places to anchor?

I'm like you. But a lot of people like to leave the boat (in a marina usually) and explore the territory inland (by rental car, bus, train, etc.).

Thinking of the Inside Passage and Alaska (if that's what's meant by the PNW), then that's not so tempting because everything is more water accessed. But places like Mexico, Panama, US East Coast.... there is a lot of cool stuff to see by going inland (not by boat).

 

[mvweebles]

Not to be contrary, I’m interested in your experience. I view staying at a marina (while traveling) like staying in a trailer park. I prefer isolation vs socializing. Do you mean inland waters as in no places to anchor? OP mentions the coast and possible Alaska. Not sure if he means the inside passage, or pacific coast. If it’s the pacific coast, I would be staying at a lot of docks too.

When we were weekend/local cruisers, anchoring was much of the draw. My home slip in San Francisco was in Clipper Cove, arguably the best anchorage in SF Bay. I cannot tell you the number of times we put-put'ed out 200 yards from our slip just to anchor.

But once we headed south into Mexico to places we'd never been before, we found much of the draw was inland. La Paz was the only place we couldn't get a slip in the marina and it was a PITA to be anchored. #1 the anchorage is not great. #2, even though there was a great dinghy dock, dinghying in to go ashore wasn't ideal.

At least along Mexico's Pacific Coast, anchorages can be a bit spotty. They cluster into areas, then go some distance between - not unlike Southern California. And the anchorages can be a bit rolly.

We love our boat - we've had her almost half my life. But she's a "Magic Carpet" to transport us to points unknown. Our interest is travel - Weebles is a great platform. In the end, anchorages mostly look alike. Marinas mostly look alike. For us, the cool stuff is venturing out. Fellow cruisers here are nice enough, but many are 100% focused on their boat or are under-funded sailors so they do not know all that Chiapas MX has to offer - it's an amazing region that has but one marina that is nice but unremarkable.

Peter

 

[Mac2]

When we were weekend/local cruisers, anchoring was much of the draw. My home slip in San Francisco was in Clipper Cove, arguably the best anchorage in SF Bay. I cannot tell you the number of times we put-put'ed out 200 yards from our slip just to anchor.

But once we headed south into Mexico to places we'd never been before, we found much of the draw was inland. La Paz was the only place we couldn't get a slip in the marina and it was a PITA to be anchored. #1 the anchorage is not great. #2, even though there was a great dinghy dock, dinghying in to go ashore wasn't ideal.

At least along Mexico's Pacific Coast, anchorages can be a bit spotty. They cluster into areas, then go some distance between - not unlike Southern California. And the anchorages can be a bit rolly.

We love our boat - we've had her almost half my life. But she's a "Magic Carpet" to transport us to points unknown. Our interest is travel - Weebles is a great platform. In the end, anchorages mostly look alike. Marinas mostly look alike. For us, the cool stuff is venturing out. Fellow cruisers here are nice enough, but many are 100% focused on their boat or are under-funded sailors so they do not know all that Chiapas MX has to offer - it's an amazing region that has but one marina that is nice but unremarkable.

Peter

Thanks for the perspective. On the inside passage, it is at least a 50 to 1 ratio for anchorages to slips for a 65 foot boat-others with more experience can chip in. It gets back to the question of where the OP plans to boat. I can see myself at the dock for the winter months if it gets to uncomfortable.

 

[tiltrider1]

Finding permanent moorage gets difficult above 60’ over all length in the PNW. Between 50’ and 60’ is not easy but it’s out there, just not necessary where you want it.

Dry storage is readily available for boats over 60’. So if you plan to launch in May and return in Sept you won’t really have any issues. You will need to make reservations for temporary moorage but it’s not to difficult. Where things get tricky are storm events. They are rare in summer but they do occur. At 65’ expect to have at least one nervous night riding out high winds on anchor because all the transient space is full.

Gunkholing in the San Juan’s and Gulf islands is pretty limited with a 65’ boat. Beyond that you will have few issues.

If you plan to roam from Seattle to Juneau 65’ make a more comfortable platform but at a price. If you only plan to cruise the San Juan’s and Gulf Islands I believe you regret having too much boat.

My boat is an OA 54 which has a 60’ over all length. I have no issues at this length but I am a member of Seattle Yacht Club that has 10 out stations through out the area which greatly aids me in finding transient moorage.

 

[deputybubba]

Our plan was to anchor out mostly and only hit marinas to provision. Turns out we love to travel inland so marinas have become a mainstay. Also repairs are difficult unless in a marina.

I suspect a lot of people start out thinking they'll anchor out but spend a lot of time in marinas. I suspect the inverse is not true - few people plan to stay in marinas but end up anchoring out a lot.

Right now, we are paying around $12/nt (monthly rate) for marina for our 36-footer, including electricity. Transient would be more - most we've paid is around $45/nt. Three guys are just finishing washing our boat including all covers and dinghy. Around $100 including tip.

If money matters, something to be said for a smaller boat.

Peter

Sadly money always matters

 

[oyster69]

The bigger the boat the longer it takes to get away from the dock. Or to find a dock to return to.

 

[Mac2]

Gunkholing in the San Juan’s and Gulf islands is pretty limited with a 65’ boat. Beyond that you will have few issues.

I would say it depends on the weight of the 65 foot boat. All I have been doing is gunkholing in the San Juans/Puget sound. That was the surprise for me. I can anchor outside the normal anchoring locations-mouth of Prevost, Anywhere on the north end of West Sound, west side of Roche Harbor, etc.
Bigger boats can handle more chain for those locations as well (260lb anchor with 500 feet of 1/2 chain).

 

[slowgoesit]

Gunkholing in the San Juan’s and Gulf islands is pretty limited with a 65’ boat. Beyond that you will have few issues.

If you plan to roam from Seattle to Juneau 65’ make a more comfortable platform but at a price. If you only plan to cruise the San Juan’s and Gulf Islands I believe you regret having too much boat.

My boat is an OA 54 which has a 60’ over all length. I have no issues at this length but I am a member of Seattle Yacht Club that has 10 out stations through out the area which greatly aids me in finding transient moorage.

Not sure where in the San Juan's and Gulf Islands it would be inconvenient to have a larger boat. We did just fine, registered 50', LOA, a tad over 61'. But then you may be just marina to marina. For the most part, we avoid marinas, preferring to be on the hook. We'd rather spend our $$ on food and boat repair rather than ridiculous priced marina slips! Our boat, at 6.5 kts sips fuel, about 2.5 kn/gal.

 

[tiltrider1]

I am inferring that the San Juan’s are a busy place. It’s always easier to squeeze in a smaller boat than a larger boat. Yes, there are many places you can anchor with a 65’. There are just a lot more places you can squeeze a 45’ boat into.

 

[slowgoesit]

I am inferring that the San Juan’s are a busy place. It’s always easier to squeeze in a smaller boat than a larger boat. Yes, there are many places you can anchor with a 65’. There are just a lot more places you can squeeze a 45’ boat into.

That's certainly true, but we never had an issue of finding space to anchor . . . .

 

[psneeld]

The truth is (to a point).... once you get boat handling and have enough experience to back it up.....

......17 feet to 399 feet really isn't all that different. Sure direct thrust drives and singles with keel/large rudder and twins all require sone hands on just like dual lever controls versus single lever throttle/shift controls.

Yet it is really about recognizing closure rate and response time to prop/throttle and being ahead of wind and current that is a major hurdle. Also recognizing what the boat will and won't do when entering approaches that have to be decided early on whether they will succeed or fail and what will cause one or the other.

All that said, if you have never run a 20 foot larger and many tons different displacement boat, often best to get time in one before owning one and using it regularly/cruising it.

 

[MYTraveler]

The truth is (to a point).... once you get boat handling and have enough experience to back it up.....

......17 feet to 399 feet really isn't all that different. Sure direct thrust drives and singles with keel/large rudder and twins all require sone hands on just like dual lever controls versus single lever throttle/shift controls.

Yet it is really about recognizing closure rate and response time to prop/throttle and being ahead of wind and current that is a major hurdle. Also recognizing what the boat will and won't do when entering approaches that have to be decided early on whether they will succeed or fail and what will cause one or the other.

All that said, if you have never run a 20 foot larger and many tons different displacement boat, often best to get time in one before owning one and using it regularly/cruising it.

Very true, except for one thing. With a 20' boat, you can bounce off the dock -- and for many people, that is part of their standard docking procedure. But, the bigger (measured in displacement) boats get after that, the slower the boat must contact a dock without causing damage.

 

[psneeld]

Very true, except for one thing. With a 20' boat, you can bounce off the dock -- and for many people, that is part of their standard docking procedure. But, the bigger (measured in displacement) boats get after that, the slower the boat must contact a dock without causing damage.

Sorta what I said...if you "get" boat handling you understand the different maneuvers and methods required for docking all sizes of vessels. Often, I can stand on the dock and mention to my friends how/why a boater should be doing something a little sooner or should be pausing, or approaching at a sharper angle or less, etc. to make the docking a bit easier. Di it enough and you can just feel when things are in the groove.

Some ship/ship captains never or rarely "dock" their boat, tugs really do it, at least provide the actions to make it much easier and less prone to disaster. Much like a good hand can keep that 20 footer from dock smashing.

Also, "getting" boating, is that developed sense of closure rates and angles and the environmentals affecting them.

Those skills are needed for just about any vessel.... at least to keep from smashing dock or other boats occasionally and not provide entertainment for the rest of the slipholders.

 

[sjisailor]

I will most likely not 'outgrow' this boat, as will will likely outgrow being able to travel ... old age gets everyone

The previous boating experience is unclear from the thread but this brings up one point I'd make for new boaters: it's impossible to predict exactly what you'll like, dislike, or use without a couple of years of on the water experience.

It is extremely common to change boats not only due to learning but also due to changes in circumstances and interests (which intersect with learning, which leads to further changes ...)

So for my 0.02 I would suggest to get a common, good condition, value-holding, "good enough", not too expensive boat ... sooner! And not too large for all the reasons mentioned. Then learn and see whether there is a next boat or you have the forever boat.

 

[Ken E.]

Further to earlier comments, when you want to tie up at a marina, the availability of slips decreases at an increasing rate with length. There are a lot fewer slips available at 65' than 50'. Transient or permanent. Anchoring is less of an issue in those two lengths.

 

[Bragacbw]

Hello,
I am looking at boats in the PNW. Plan to do the coast and probably alaska at some point.
I see boats in the 45' range , 50's and some in the 60's .. Any real con vs pro for size ?
I assume I can cruise down to trawler speed if I need to conserve fuel.
Any other considerations ?
Thanks as always

Please think of insurance ramifications

 

[Robster_in_edmonds]

My wife and I moved up from a 28' to a 50' boat (Bayliner 4788) and spent ten wonderful years cruising in the PNW. When we retired a few years ago we sold everything and moved to Maui and are boatless now. Here are my thoughts regarding your plans...
If you are going to be cruising in the PNW, Gulf Islands, Inside Passage and Alaska, you'll be happiest in a boat 45' or bigger. There are times and places where the waves can be gnarly and a bigger boat will handle conditions better. Staying in that area, air conditioning is not necessary, but if boating year-round you'll need diesel heat. I really loved winter cruising in the PNW - it can feel like you own the place, there are so few boats on the water.
Your biggest issue will be moorage. Most marinas cap out at about 50' with a surcharge up to 55'. If you're looking at boats about 60-65', try to find one that comes with moorage. If you're cruising in the summer months you can usually sublet your space. Depending on your budget, consider joining a yacht club. Find one near your home, if you live in the PNW.
If budget is not an issue I would look into joining Seattle Yacht Club. They are the most likely to accommodate a larger boat. More importantly to us, their outstations are the best in the PNW (and Canada). Yes, it is an expensive club to join, but if you are yachting year-round and take advantage of their outstations, it is worth every penny.
With a 50 - 70' yacht your hull speed will be around 8-10 knots, which I found to be a comfortable, relaxing speed. Very economical. Once you get comfortable docking, a larger boat is actually easier to dock than a smaller one (understand momentum and you'll be a docking pro).
A stand-up engine room will be a blessing. Watch out for badly-done wiring, especially on an older boat. My boat had good but older electronics. Very accurate, but a pain to load courses into. I used them as a backup and used an iPad Pro with good navigation software as my primary. I loved loading a course in the night before making a run, reviewing it with my wife, and then being ready to roll at dawn.
Last tip: have a good dinghy/tender. A 12' dinghy with a 30-40 hp outboard will zip around and can carry four people, or two people and plenty of groceries. Perfect for anchoring out and taking the dinghy into the local marina. Have fun!

 

[DaveGibson]

If I ever shop for a boat in the future, which I will not, I would demand two things. A twin screw, and stabilizers.

I was a sailor all my life, my largest sailboat being a 33'. I fell into a 46' trawler with twin screws. I could "park it on a dime". It would turn in it's own length. I would own nothing else. Add to maneuverability that two engines are more reliable than one.

The second are stabilizers. I first looked at my boat on the hard. I had absolutely no idea what those two things were sticking out of the hull. I don't think I need those things, I thought. Just one more thing to go wrong. Well, I found out exactly what they were for. My 46' x 15' trawler never rocked from side to side, which is really important on a liveaboard with all the stuff you have about. If I was being waked by a giant sportfisherman, I didn't quarter the waves. I turned broadside to them. My boat just gently bobbed up and down.

Put those two items in your search filter and your results will pare down real fast. The added benefit is that anyone with a lot of experience and money will toss stabilizers on his option list. That means the boat was most likely outfitted right and, hopefully, taken care of properly.

My boat sat on the hard uncovered for twenty years. I bought it from an estate. I cleaned the old owner's clothes and the like out, charged the batteries, added fuel (the tank was empty) and cruised it for four years, from Stamford CT to Albany NY to Florida. No major issues except I had to rework the fuel lines. I bought two Filter Bosses, one for each engine, and used the old Racor as a fuel polishing system. Major work and money, but considering I bought the bought the boat for a song, it was worth it.

 

[deputybubba]

A stand-up engine room will be a blessing.

Agreed, I have been on a couple of 'yoga' required engine rooms, not fun and I can't really see doing it now that I'm in my mid 60s

Last tip: have a good dinghy/tender. A 12' dinghy with a 30-40 hp outboard will zip around and can carry four people, or two people and plenty of groceries. Perfect for anchoring out and taking the dinghy into the local marina. Have fun!

Awesome advice, thank you for your comments

 

[deputybubba]

I would demand two things. A twin screw, and stabilizers.

This REALLY narrowed down the list of boats ! I agree with both as needed.

 

[Hobbit]

Hey ! ... Went with a course on BoatUS foundation.
Survey went horrible ! lol... guess you can't buy a boat and let it sit for 5 yrs and only put 50 hrs. on it..
Then try and sell it... lots of maintenance items that would have to be addressed.
Insurance doesn't seem like it will be an issue.
And my boat budget keeps going up... Think about $500k now... I am a little surprised that alot of boats are in bad shape even though the photos look good....
thankfully my broker has a good network and knows which ones are not worth seeing...
Thanks for the status check.

There are lots of good boats in the 4 to 500K range, personally I would only look at single engine boats. A lot less maintenance and 8 kts is very relaxing once you get used to it. Make sure it has autopilot, radar etc. I've had single engine boats for over 50 years and if they're looked after they don't just stop. A full keel will protect your prop as well twins usually if they hit something they hit both props with a full keel most logs etc aren'tgoing to cause you issues. Another thing to consider is to buy a boat with a...older cat, john deere, cummins engine stay away from the newer electronic diesels. IMHO
Stabilizers are a nice addition as well.

 

[Frosty]

I'm with @Hobbit in that I like the protection of the keel that you usually get on a single engine displacement/semi-displacement boat. But then, I like to gunkhole and I don't spend a lot of time docking (tho a thruster would help there).

I can see the plusses of twins too, so it's worth thinking about both; I just wouldn't say ALL the advantages go to twins. At least not for all cruising styles. They both have plusses and minuses.

 

[Mambo42]

We currently have a Defever 49, but since we more or less live onboard our boat most of the year we have decided to look for a larger boat. I don't think the systems will be more complicated, in fact from what I have seen so far in the boats that I have visited the systems are more simple, but perhaps that is because of the modifications I made to our current boat.
I do understand that the cost will go up, mostly on the fuel side, but not drastically. Since we don't have a homeport /marina anyway we won't be spending anything extra on that. During the season we avoid marinas and ports as much as we can, we like to spend our time on anchor or travelling from island to island. In wintertime we can go to town quays and moor the boat there (as we do now). That will be about 10 euro per day, which is acceptable and if we think that is too much we could always anchor out. Right in front of us is a large anchorage and at the moment there are still 20 - 30 boats anchored there.

Our next boat will be in the 65 - 70' range and needs to be stabilized. However, I do understand that the luxury we have at this moment, zero speed stabilization, is probably not going to happen. Or I need to find boat for a very low price, so that I can install the same stabilizers again.

One very important issue for us is speed. At the moment we do about 6.5 - 7 kts while underway. Since the weather in the Med is getting more and more extreme, plus we want to go to remote places, the risk of ending up in extreme weather is just getting bigger every year.
We would like to go to Sicily, Tunesia, Corsica, Sardinia, even Monaco and Nice, but those are passages of 100 - 150 nm each. However, with the lack of an accurate weather forecast in this area of the Med we do get surprised a lot with bad weather and a 100 - 150 nm passage can all of a sudden become a not so fun passage.
We cannot outrun the weather, we cannot hide, we can just ride it out and tell ourselves (each time) we don't want to get caught in this weather anymore. If we would be 50 nm off shore, it will take us almost 8 hours to get there and during that time we could be looking at gale force winds plus subsequent seas. If we could only do 10 or 12 kts we could be in safety within 4 to 5 hours and if we could push it up to 20 kts we would be able to do it in 2.5 hrs. That way we could avoid getting caught out in bad weather.

The boats I am looking now at can all do at least 10 kts and a few can make up to 20 kts. One of them is a Fleming 55, in good condition, but with Cat 3208 with almost 3500 hrs on the clock. Since we do about 400 - 600 hrs a year I would be looking at a possible engine overhaul in 3 to 4 years time and that is a bit too costly as a write off.

But we are not in a hurry, if I cannot find what I am looking for or if it is too costly then we simply keep our current boat. She is absolutely perfect to go around this part of the Med, is extremely comfortable now that she is zero speed stabilized and we are fully self supporting with both water, electricity and all other amenities.
In other words, we have a luxury problem.

 

[slowgoesit]

Another advantage of a larger boat is more real estate to install solar panels! I've never had anyone tell me they installed too many solar panels! Great for living on the hook. I'd rather spend my $$ eating out, or maintaining the boat as opposed to paying outrageous marina fees!

 

[Srupp9271]

Hard to find either permanent or temporary moorage for anything over 60’

Buy the smallest boat that gets the job done.

I totally agree on this one. If you go from 45 to 65 feet your cost for everything will increase dramatically. I am shopping for a trawler and I have set myself an upper limit of 50 feet.