Any reason not to go 65' vs. 45' ?

[deputybubba]

Hello,
I am looking at boats in the PNW. Plan to do the coast and probably alaska at some point.
I see boats in the 45' range , 50's and some in the 60's .. Any real con vs pro for size ?
I assume I can cruise down to trawler speed if I need to conserve fuel.
Any other considerations ?
Thanks as always

 

[tiltrider1]

Hard to find either permanent or temporary moorage for anything over 60’

Buy the smallest boat that gets the job done.

 

[deputybubba]

Ah Good point, I assume transient moorage would be the biggest problem.

 

[SteveK]

How is the power squadron course going?
How did the survey go on the 09 DeFever?
Were you able to secure insurance for a first boat over 40 feet?
What is your boat $$$$ budget?

 

[KnotYet]

My personal preference was to find a used trawler that was between 46' and 50' LOA.
That will usually be a substantial boat in size and in maintenance and operating costs.
I'd had boats before and I was comfortable with that size, with occasional singlehanding.
You are a first time trawler buyer and there will a learning curve before you gain experience.
Your comfort zone may start with less boat than I was ok with after my years of boating.

I made a good choice finding a DeFever 49 that was in decent shape for a decent price.

 

[deputybubba]

How is the power squadron course going?
How did the survey go on the 09 DeFever?
Were you able to secure insurance for a first boat over 40 feet?
What is your boat $$$$ budget?

Hey ! ... Went with a course on BoatUS foundation.
Survey went horrible ! lol... guess you can't buy a boat and let it sit for 5 yrs and only put 50 hrs. on it..
Then try and sell it... lots of maintenance items that would have to be addressed.
Insurance doesn't seem like it will be an issue.
And my boat budget keeps going up... Think about $500k now... I am a little surprised that alot of boats are in bad shape even though the photos look good....
thankfully my broker has a good network and knows which ones are not worth seeing...
Thanks for the status check.

 

[deputybubba]

I made a good choice finding a DeFever 49 that was in decent shape for a decent price.

Yup looking at that exact boat next week.
just kind of preparing to look at other boats if it hasn't had maintenance kept up on it...

 

[Comodave]

The larger the boat the more systems in it. And the more complex systems. That means more maintenance. You want to have room to be comfortable but not a whole lot more unless you have what is called an open check book. Meaning that you are willing and able to just write checks for the maintenance. Or are really good at working on a boat yourself.

 

[Frosty]

I see boats in the 45' range , 50's and some in the 60's .. Any real con vs pro for size ?
I assume I can cruise down to trawler speed if I need to conserve fuel.
Any other considerations ?
Thanks as always

Moorage has already been mentioned.

A thing to know (perhaps you already do) is that boats don't go up in size linearly. So a 65-footer could be twice (or three times) the size of of a 45-footer. Not simply 1/3 larger as you might think just by comparing the number 45 with the number 65

Everything else goes up too. Larger windlass, larger anchor, larger dock lines, larger fenders, larger engine (probably). The list goes on.

Even if you do have an open checkbook, unless you have crew you might want to consider that you'd be handling many these larger things (dock lines, etc.). Even if you have powered systems everything is just that much further from being manageable by hand if need be at some point. Decks will be higher up from the dock..... etc.

Obviously many people (even many people here) do have 65-footers -- and presumably love them. But since you asked about the difference, I just wanted to mention a few of these things. Main one being that it's not just "1/3 larger."

 

[READY]

Why not go to 100ft? Seems you need to get on some boats and decide what you need. You say insurance appears to be no problem. What is the basis for that?

Plenty of good boats for sale under $500k that will be suitable for your intended use and in the 35-50 ft range.

You maybe observing that boat asking prices are not a linear relationship vs. length. You probably see older resale 70 ft boats priced comparable or hust a bit more than 50 footers. This is because they often are harder to sell. The larger boat is significantly more expensive to operate and insurance is even more difficult. Dockage is extremely limited.

Seriously consider th advice shared to purchase the smallest boat that can support your realistic use case. If you eventually outgrow it then you can trade up. Yes there is cost in the two transactions but way less risk. Also you will save a lot and have more fun as you build experience. And you may just find you keep the smaller boat.

 

[tiltrider1]

As some one mentioned things go up exponentially with size. Parts that cost $250 on a 40’ cost $2500 on a 65’.

Also the weight of parts go up exponentially. Jobs that I can do on a 40’ become more than I can lift on a 65’. Suddenly you need lifting tools to do jobs.

None of this is an issue if you pay to have your work done.

 

[Blissboat]

The larger the boat the more systems in it. And the more complex systems. That means more maintenance. You want to have room to be comfortable but not a whole lot more unless you have what is called an open check book.

Not sure I agree with Comodave - a bigger boat does not necessarily have to be more complex. The basic systems are the same. Water management is water management (meaning potable, waste and bilge). As for ground tackle, bigger boats require bigger anchors and windlasses, of course, and heavier lines, but the functions are absolutely identical. The suite of navigation and communications electronics installed aboard your 65' boat can be exactly what's on the 35' docked next to you, or even more basic. A lot of boats in the 30' to 40' range are loaded with ridiculously powerful, sophisticated electronics to the point of overkill. (Funny, but it seems to me that those are also the boats that rarely leave the marina).

On a larger boat the AC and DC electrical runs will be longer, and the wiring may be of different gauges, but it's all still just hot and cold running amps and volts. Likewise with HVAC systems - more tons of capacity, but operating on the same principles. Hull and bottom paint? Same products, just more quantities. Dock lines? Longer and heavier. Fenders, bigger and heavier.

As a practical consideration, aboard bigger boats there more and easier points of access to inspect and troubleshoot your infrastructure. When you have to actually put your hands and tools on a piece of equipment, it's wonderful to have ample room to spread out and work. You can reach that bilge pump without standing on your head, or get at that heat exchanger without shoehorning yourself between an engine and a fuel tank. Sometimes I've imagined for a moment that heaven will be a standup engine room with good ventilation.

Not saying bigger necessarily equals better, but every boat is a collection of systems that require care and regular, ongoing attention. Once a boat has been built and equipped, the most direct, linear financial difference influenced by size is the expense of renting dock space and hauling out.

 

[RedRascal]

As you go bigger you'll start to no longer fit in smaller anchorages which may translate into less protected anchorages.

 

[Delta Riverat]

This. My 44 footer just fits into a 50 foot berth. With a roof over it -

 

[mvweebles]

Buy the smallest boat that gets the job done.

Amen to this!!!

A larger boat requires much better crew. Size matters. Fenders are bigger, heavier, and more unwieldy. A 60-ft long 1" dock line is heavy when wet (20 lbs?) and can't be coiled easily. Power cord is heavier and longer. Access on/off is often more challenging. The dinghy is larger and more difficult to launch. Washing a 60-footer will take the better part of a day. As a boat gets larger, requirement of crew grows too. Many 65 footers can be handled by a couple, but the crew better be fit and agile.

Peter

 

[Jklotz]

I choose a 45' for our first "big" boat. I feel like it was a good choice. Plenty of room for 2 people and 2 dogs. My boat doesn't have side decks, but in exchange, the salon and galley go the full 14 feet of the beam. I've been on other 45 footers that would have felt a bit cramped by comparison. I toured a lot of boats before we bought ours. You need to get on board and "try them on for size" IMHO. The layout, air draft and beam has a lot to do with it. I have been on a 58' that, beyond an extra guest berth and head, didn't have any more living space than we have. You have to go see them, no other way to know.

The one thing I wish I had was a standup engine room. Everything with boating is a compromise. Course', if I had that, I'd probably find something else to pick on.

 

[mvweebles]

........
The one thing I wish I had was a standup engine room. Everything with boating is a compromise. Course', if I had that, I'd probably find something else to pick on.

In the 45-foot size class, Nordhavn does the best engine room I've been aboard. Defever 44 is excellent too but to your point of some other issue popping up, the standup engine room makes for a lot of stairs and a tall boat which means it has a lot of windage and requires stabilization.

Side decks vs widebody saloon is an endless debate. Even when actively cruising, I spend 98% of hours at rest. I'll take the wide saloon hands down.

Peter

 

[Jklotz]

Side decks vs widebody saloon is an endless debate. Even when actively cruising, I spend 98% of hours at rest. I'll take the wide saloon hands down.

Peter

We got used to it pretty quickly. Just feels normal to us at this point. If I could somehow magically change it, I wouldn't.

 

[slowgoesit]

In the 45-foot size class, Nordhavn does the best engine room I've been aboard. Defever 44 is excellent too but to your point of some other issue popping up, the standup engine room makes for a lot of stairs and a tall boat which means it has a lot of windage and requires stabilization.

Side decks vs widebody saloon is an endless debate. Even when actively cruising, I spend 98% of hours at rest. I'll take the wide saloon hands down.

Peter

The boat we bought was larger than we had been looking at. At Registered 50', it has at least twice the living space as most of the 45' boats we've been aboard. We've never regretted the extra space, even when it is just the two of us (and three cats) aboard. The only time I've regretted about this boat is now that we're on the East Coast, our draft restricts us from the Trent Severn Waterway in Canada. That's one of the items on my bucket list.
As Peter knows, we are proponents of a stand up engine room. Lots of room to move around and easy to get to most stuff. WAY easier to inspect/maintain/replace components, and the easier it is to get access to, the more likely maintenance is to get done, or at least that is my take on it. I'm also a fan of well maintained single engines.
Regarding the widebody salon, we were looking for a full walk around deck when boat shopping, finally narrowing our search to 48' to 49' Defevers, but we ended up getting a full beam salon boat. We don't regret it at all. There's something to be said for being able to comfortably seat 6 people at the dinette with excellent visibility outside to port and still have lots of room to move around, not to mention the two wall hugger full recliners to starboard.
Fore and aft exterior access for line handling isn't that difficult, and the payoff, especially in inclement weather is absolutely tremendous!
Obviously others may disagree, and for some stand up engine room and full width salons are not the correct choice, but for us, it was the correct choice.

 

[DDW]

I'd buy the smallest boat I thought I would be comfortable in. Unless you have a large family or entertain guests a lot, that is 45' or even less. In the PNW you will find that many of the remote marinas will have a much harder time fitting in a 60' than a 45'. Any boat is a maintenance nighmare, and the amount of work (or alternatively money) is proportional to weight, not length. Displacement goes up by the cube of length.

 

[deputybubba]

Moorage has already been mentioned.

A thing to know (perhaps you already do) is that boats don't go up in size linearly. So a 65-footer could be twice (or three times) the size of of a 45-footer. Not simply 1/3 larger as you might think just by comparing the number 45 with the number 65

Everything else goes up too. Larger windlass, larger anchor, larger dock lines, larger fenders, larger engine (probably). The list goes on.

Even if you do have an open checkbook, unless you have crew you might want to consider that you'd be handling many these larger things (dock lines, etc.). Even if you have powered systems everything is just that much further from being manageable by hand if need be at some point. Decks will be higher up from the dock..... etc.

Obviously many people (even many people here) do have 65-footers -- and presumably love them. But since you asked about the difference, I just wanted to mention a few of these things. Main one being that it's not just "1/3 larger."

Now THAT makes total sense !
Thank you for that reply, some things I did not think about...

 

[deputybubba]

Why not go to 100ft? Seems you need to get on some boats and decide what you need. You say insurance appears to be no problem. What is the basis for that?

Plenty of good boats for sale under $500k that will be suitable for your intended use and in the 35-50 ft range.

You maybe observing that boat asking prices are not a linear relationship vs. length. You probably see older resale 70 ft boats priced comparable or hust a bit more than 50 footers. This is because they often are harder to sell. The larger boat is significantly more expensive to operate and insurance is even more difficult. Dockage is extremely limited.

Seriously consider th advice shared to purchase the smallest boat that can support your realistic use case. If you eventually outgrow it then you can trade up. Yes there is cost in the two transactions but way less risk. Also you will save a lot and have more fun as you build experience. And you may just find you keep the smaller boat.

I will most likely not 'outgrow' this boat, as will will likely outgrow being able to travel ... old age gets everyone

 

[deputybubba]

I choose a 45' for our first "big" boat. I feel like it was a good choice. Plenty of room for 2 people and 2 dogs. My boat doesn't have side decks, but in exchange, the salon and galley go the full 14 feet of the beam. I've been on other 45 footers that would have felt a bit cramped by comparison. I toured a lot of boats before we bought ours. You need to get on board and "try them on for size" IMHO. The layout, air draft and beam has a lot to do with it. I have been on a 58' that, beyond an extra guest berth and head, didn't have any more living space than we have. You have to go see them, no other way to know.

The one thing I wish I had was a standup engine room. Everything with boating is a compromise. Course', if I had that, I'd probably find something else to pick on.

Yes a stand up or almost stand up is a requirement, that and stabilizers... So my search is already narrowed down.

 

[deputybubba]

The boat we bought was larger than we had been looking at. At Registered 50', it has at least twice the living space as most of the 45' boats we've been aboard. We've never regretted the extra space, even when it is just the two of us (and three cats) aboard. The only time I've regretted about this boat is now that we're on the East Coast, our draft restricts us from the Trent Severn Waterway in Canada. That's one of the items on my bucket list.
As Peter knows, we are proponents of a stand up engine room. Lots of room to move around and easy to get to most stuff. WAY easier to inspect/maintain/replace components, and the easier it is to get access to, the more likely maintenance is to get done, or at least that is my take on it. I'm also a fan of well maintained single engines.
Regarding the widebody salon, we were looking for a full walk around deck when boat shopping, finally narrowing our search to 48' to 49' Defevers, but we ended up getting a full beam salon boat. We don't regret it at all. There's something to be said for being able to comfortably seat 6 people at the dinette with excellent visibility outside to port and still have lots of room to move around, not to mention the two wall hugger full recliners to starboard.
Fore and aft exterior access for line handling isn't that difficult, and the payoff, especially in inclement weather is absolutely tremendous!
Obviously others may disagree, and for some stand up engine room and full width salons are not the correct choice, but for us, it was the correct choice.

Awesome reply, thanks

 

[SteveK]

moorage. Not that it would change my mind on what boat I want, but I found out that the lineal foot charged on over 40 foot boats increased by some 20%, just because, since I have not understood the why yet. Of course usually a longer boat is also wider, but that applies to over 30 as well as over 40. That is the way it is, marinas set the base charge.

 

[Taras]

I sold my 66' Cheoy Lee LRC and now have downsized to this Kha Shing 49' and I am very happy with it in the PNW. Yes, the space inside the Cheoy Lee was amazing but not looking to cross oceans anymore (the CL was capable of that). You gotta choose the right boat for the right job. Most of the cruising in the PNW is pretty flat due to everything being so protected by Islands and they're so many places to go and see that don't require a huge, capable passagemaking vessel. A coastal cruiser of modest size works really well in the PNW IMHO.

 

[deputybubba]

moorage. Not that it would change my mind on what boat I want, but I found out that the lineal foot charged on over 40 foot boats increased by some 20%, just because, since I have not understood the why yet. Of course usually a longer boat is also wider, but that applies to over 30 as well as over 40. That is the way it is, marinas set the base charge.

Right, I don't know that it's going to sway me ( moorage ) , but it is nice to know all the other things that will be 'more' ... Thanks

 

[Mac2]

I went from a 36 with no side decks and 22k pounds to 65 with side decks at 175k lbs. Complete opposites. You mention where you want to boat, but not how. Livaboard, anchor out the majority of the time, dock to dock, or a combination. Moorage for a 65 is difficult. Moorage for a 65 livaboard is a nightmare. My wife had certain mandates for living aboard. The boats in the 65 range were the only ones that fulfilled these mandates. I was plenty happy with the 45-50 foot range. The big surprise for me, with the 65, was how much easier it was to dock (not the tight runways) , go through the locks, or find an anchoring spot (deeper and more exposed locations). Systems are bigger on the 65, but much easier to work on (I installed hydronic heaters, water makers, etc on both boats). I can give more specific details once I know how you plan to boat.

 

[deputybubba]

I went from a 36 with no side decks and 22k pounds to 65 with side decks at 175k lbs. Complete opposites. You mention where you want to boat, but not how. Livaboard, anchor out the majority of the time, dock to dock, or a combination. Moorage for a 65 is difficult. Moorage for a 65 livaboard is a nightmare. My wife had certain mandates for living aboard. The boats in the 65 range were the only ones that fulfilled these mandates. I was plenty happy with the 45-50 foot range. The big surprise for me, with the 65, was how much easier it was to dock (not the tight runways) , go through the locks, or find an anchoring spot (deeper and more exposed locations). Systems are bigger on the 65, but much easier to work on (I installed hydronic heaters, water makers, etc on both boats). I can give more specific details once I know how you plan to boat.

Thanks ! So not dock to dock, I envision anchoring and then some dock time to restock. This won't be for a couple of years, so in the mean time I will get familiar with all the systems and anchoring... I think most of our time will be at anchor, but that hasn't been proven out yet....
Thanks again, great perspective.
OH and not live aboard

 

[MYTraveler]

Hello,
I am looking at boats in the PNW. Plan to do the coast and probably alaska at some point.
I see boats in the 45' range , 50's and some in the 60's .. Any real con vs pro for size ?
I assume I can cruise down to trawler speed if I need to conserve fuel.
Any other considerations ?
Thanks as always

In my experience (I know some with smaller boats will disagree), a 65' boat traveling nears its hull speed will generally be more fuel efficient than a shorter boat at that same speed. For tuna fishing, being able to troll at over 8, or better yet, 8.5 knots is very important. At that speed, I get about 1.25 nmpg, while my buddy gets less than 1. Of course, if he were to slow down to 6.5 knots, he would get better economy than me (but not much). No everyone is focused on fishing, but if being able to cover a lot of ground per day is important to you, the additional length is a significant pro.