AC outlet termination

[TheLake]

Hi all,

I have been lead to believe that wire terminated at AC outlets should use crimp on round connectors.

However, the outlets that I want to use (with integral usb chargers and the gfci ones) are not engineered to accept ring terminals (or fork terminals).

They just won’t work due to the design.

Any suggestions on how to manage this? Is it ok to not use crimp connectors?

Chris

 

[psneeld]

What kind of termination is used?

Picture?

 

[tiltrider1]

Not telling you not to use USB outlets but be aware, we have found USB outlets to leak enough to trip the ELIC breakers.

 

[Comodave]

A second choice is fork connectors. Not quite as good as ring connectors but ok. Don’t use the fast wire connections built into the outlet since they are designed for solid wire not stranded.

 

[TheLake]

It’s like a compression plate that holds the wire.

I tried to take the screw out and it doesn’t easily come out. When you take it out you can’t get it back in.

My thought is that this is t wire around a screw, but rather under a compression plate.

The little black plastic piece doesn’t allow for the fork connector to fit.

 

[Comodave]

I have cut that small plastic piece off to get the fork connectors on.

 

[diver dave]

I also ran into that using stranded wire. Use a non- insulated crimp on ferrule. https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/non-insulated-wire-ferrules/products/n40010
6 or 8 mm might be a better length.

But, these are not essential, the pressure plate will hold stranded just fine. No shore electrician uses ferrules.

 

[TheLake]

Thanks all.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. dd. Excellent solution!!!! Thanks.

 

[O C Diver]

Not telling you not to use USB outlets but be aware, we have found USB outlets to leak enough to trip the ELIC breakers.

Helped an industrial electrician do a wiring job at Isle Royale 3 weeks ago. We installed 7 outlets on 2 circuits at the pavilion at Windigo. This was all done to industrial spec in conduit with GFI breakers. Both circuits would trip the GFI breakers, one with just 3 of those outlets. Standard breakers weren't a problem.

If you use an ohm meter, it will show you the leakage. Was seriously considering installing a few of those on my boat, not any more!

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

I also ran into that using stranded wire. Use a non- insulated crimp on ferrule. https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/non-insulated-wire-ferrules/products/n40010
6 or 8 mm might be a better length.

But, these are not essential, the pressure plate will hold stranded just fine. No shore electrician uses ferrules.

That's a good solution. The issue is that the screw terminal is designed for solid wire, not stranded wire. Stranded wire needs to be held captive somehow or it splays out over time and the connection loosens. Clipping off the black tab and using a fork connector is another good approach.

 

[twistedtree]

Helped an industrial electrician do a wiring job at Isle Royale 3 weeks ago. We installed 7 outlets on 2 circuits at the pavilion at Windigo. This was all done to industrial spec in conduit with GFI breakers. Both circuits would trip the GFI breakers, one with just 3 of those outlets. Standard breakers weren't a problem.

If you use an ohm meter, it will show you the leakage. Was seriously considering installing a few of those on my boat, not any more!

Ted

Make/model on the USB outlets? I'm using a bunch of Leviton USB outlets without any issues, but I'm not sure if any of them are on GFI circuits. The whole boat has and RCD, but it's limit is 30ma rather than I think 3ma for a branch circuit GFI.

 

[O C Diver]

Make/model on the USB outlets? I'm using a bunch of Leviton USB outlets without any issues, but I'm not sure if any of them are on GFI circuits. The whole boat has and RCD, but it's limit is 30ma rather than I think 3ma for a branch circuit GFI.

You probably won't have an issue with them after (down stream) of a GFI outlet. The GFI outlets aren't generally sensitive enough to trip on the lower mille amp bleed over to ground. The issue comes into play for the newer standard for shore power pedestals. This is the same issue when some galvanic isolators with led lights were tripping the power pedestal GFIs. Also, you may not have a shore power issue as I believe your boat has an isolation transformer.

Ted

 

[diver dave]

I find this type holds stranded well. OTOH, I never wrap the actual screw with stranded wire. Some sort of crimp on help is needed. Whether its a ferrule, ring, pin terminal or fork.

 

[mvweebles]

I always wondered how the manufacturers make the screw difficult to remove, but only the last few turns.

I've found that once the screw is removed, it's not too hard to reinsert, especially if I run the hard-part in/out a couple times prior to full removal.

In addition to fork connectors, they make hook-eye connectors, and fork-connectors where the last tip of the fork tines are turned-up to hold captive.

Peter

 

[Comodave]

I have had trouble with some GFI outlets when taking the screws all the way out. I tried for a long time to get the screws to start threading back in without success. So I went to the fork connectors when doing a GFI outlet.

 

[twistedtree]

You probably won't have an issue with them after (down stream) of a GFI outlet. The GFI outlets aren't generally sensitive enough to trip on the lower mille amp bleed over to ground. The issue comes into play for the newer standard for shore power pedestals. This is the same issue when some galvanic isolators with led lights were tripping the power pedestal GFIs. Also, you may not have a shore power issue as I believe your boat has an isolation transformer.



Ted

So it’s the pedestal RCD that’s tripping, not an onboard RCD/GFCI?

 

[O C Diver]

So it’s the pedestal RCD that’s tripping, not an onboard RCD/GFCI?

Yes.

From what I understand, there are atleast 2 types of GFI breakers with significantly different bleed values before they trip. I'm assuming that building electrical codes determine which value is required. An outdoor outlet is probably a less sensitive application versus an outlet in your bathroom. The ones for boat power pedestals are now required to be very sensitive, especially at freshwater docks.

Ted

 

[OldDan1943]

They make screws difficult to get out so you dont drop the screw into a small dark space. The screw can be back out, just take some time in and out and it can be reinserted, just takes time and effort. These outlets are designed for home use and the shore electrician dont worry about fulfilling marine standards. They just worry about dropping the screw in small dark spaces.

 

[psneeld]

I think I read where ABYC suggests captive fork connectors if used.

On those kind of outlets, some of the forks just needed to be a bit shorter so I turned up a bit more of the bend at the tip.

I had 3 outlets on my boat that had the 2 USB ports in them and never had any problem at marinas with the new pedestals or even with the ELCI on my boat. I think I read somewhere that the Leviton brand worked where others didn't, but I am not positive though I did use the Leviton brand.

 

[TowLou]

I always wondered how the manufacturers make the screw difficult to remove, but only the last few turns.

I've found that once the screw is removed, it's not too hard to reinsert, especially if I run the hard-part in/out a couple times prior to full removal.

In addition to fork connectors, they make hook-eye connectors, and fork-connectors where the last tip of the fork tines are turned-up to hold captive.

Peter

You do not see it but the screw threads are a little tweaked. You straighten them out plus weaken the hole. Not a good idea to unscrew the screw all the way could cause potential for a loose connection in time.

 

[Comodave]

I think I read where ABYC suggests captive fork connectors if used.

On those kind of outlets, some of the forks just needed to be a bit shorter so I turned up a bit more of the bend at the tip.

I had 3 outlets on my boat that had the 2 USB ports in them and never had any problem at marinas with the new pedestals or even with the ELCI on my boat. I think I read somewhere that the Leviton brand worked where others didn't, but I am not positive though I did use the Leviton brand.

On our last boat I installed about 6 of the USB port outlets. We have 6 mAmp GFI breakers on our dock at home and they never tripped the GFIs. I think they were also Leviton outlets. It sure was handy having the USB charging ports all over the boat.

 

[BlissB]

Hi all,

I have been lead to believe that wire terminated at AC outlets should use crimp on round connectors.

However, the outlets that I want to use (with integral usb chargers and the gfci ones) are not engineered to accept ring terminals (or fork terminals).

They just won’t work due to the design.

Any suggestions on how to manage this? Is it ok to not use crimp connectors?

Chris

What about crimp-on hook connectors. Aren’t they intended for this purpose?

https://www.waytekwire.com/item/31042/Molex-19170-0011-Hook-Terminal-16-14-Ga-/

Bliss Bailey
S/V Kingfisher
Catalina 380 Hull #20

 

[Steve DAntonio]

As some others have pointed out, this outlet, the one you shared the photo of, uses a non-direct bearing terminal, therefore, no solderless crimp on terminal is needed, you can insert the stripped, stranded wire directly into it and tighten the screw, the plate under the screw clamps the wire. It is ABYC compliant. Now, if you want to use a ring, fork or captive spade, that's fine and probably slightly more durable, although it does add one additional connection point.

 

[EngNate]

I deal with this a lot. The screws will come out and go back in without damage, just keep lined up straight and turn slowly. I clip the interfering plastic if there.

 

[TheLake]

I have cut that small plastic piece off to get the fork connectors on.

I am finding this works well. Thank you.

Chris

 

[O C Diver]

I sent an email to Leviton regarding the USB outlets and possibly tripping the GFI breakers. Will post their response when I receive it.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

I sent an email to Leviton regarding the USB outlets and possibly tripping the GFI breakers. Will post their response when I receive it.

Ted

Like I said in a previous post I put 5 or so in my last boat and it didn’t trip the GFIs on my dock and they are 6 mAmp GFI breakers. Be interesting to see what they come back with.

 

[diver dave]

I sent an email to Leviton regarding the USB outlets and possibly tripping the GFI breakers. Will post their response when I receive it.

Ted

I had a false trip AFCI issue with Leviton while using a microwave. The apps help guy was great. Leviton actually bought my model microwave and ran experiments on it. Resulting in a new firmware load into my breakers, done remotely. [emoji106]

 

[Helmsman]

With the change to USB-C cables moving along pretty quickly, I am not sure that putting in the Older, more ubiquitous USB outlets will be good for more than a couple of years. Has anyone here run across outlets with the USB-C connectors, or even better than that, both types?