A good reason to give up the sailboat for a trawler?

[Baker]

You keep using the word "scantling" in reference to FRP boats. Not that it's relevant, but that term is usually related to metal boats and the scantlings that are welded together and rolled to form a boat. I guess FRP hulls are made of 1 or 2 scantlings depending on how it was laid up. The term can even be applied to buildings(wood) or wooden boats but still don't believe it to be relative to FRP boats.

 

[FF]

Any vessel's "scantlings" is the entire package of the construction.

With GRP its a measure of how thick (and mostly less flexable ) or robust the construction.

But scantlings would include the robustness of the deck house , thickness of window glass , type and fastnings of any deck penitrations (hatches).

Simply measuring the thickness of the glass in the hull will not usually give a good idea of the vessels intended service , as reinforcement like stringers or bulkheads must be included.

Of course the intentionally lightweight boats will expect a very reduced service life , compared to even an inshore boat.

Lots of keels have fallen off superlightweight race boats , but in racing , that's what improves the breed.

In wood cold molded ply with lightweight stringers will be fast , but 1 1/4- 1 1/2 planking with 4x4 ribs on 12 inch centers would make the better 40-50 ft "world cruiser".

Look at the origonal PASSAGEMAKER , for an idea of wood boat scantlings.

For the Euro folks have ratings that could be examined to get an idea of what it takes to bash out in the blue water.ALL construction materials are covered.

My simple Quick Check is to look at the thickness of glass in the PH,
1/4 inch its a brownwater boat , 3/4 it could be built for the briney blue!

FF

 

[AdamT]

The Europeans have a rating system for offshore boats. AFAIK the "Ocean-A" rating is the one to look for. Saw this in PM's review of the Elling E3 (cool boat, btw). According to PM, it requires the ability to safely operate in Beaufort Force 8 conditions (34-40 knot winds and up to 18 foot cresting seas). No idea how the Euros test that out, though....

 

[Baker]

FF, it does not apply. Using your application, the term "scantling" could be applied to anything man made....."...that chair sure has robust scantlings....".....or..."...that handrail was made of hearty scantlings...."...."...check out the scantlings on that file cabinet!!!!..."....."....man, I sure wish my camera had the same scantlings as yours!!!...".

My point being, scantlings as they apply to marine construction usually refer to metal boats.....metal pieces that have been formed, rolled, and welded together to create a hull. No one, except maybe you, will refer to scantlings of FRP boats.....wooden boats it may be more applicable but most people will refer to them by their proper names...like stringers...strakes...ribs...planks...etc.

It has nothing to do with the thickness....it has everything to do with a structural member.

-- Edited by Baker at 21:52, 2008-01-03

 

[Gene]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scantling

"In shipbuilding, the scantling refers to the collective dimensions of the various parts, particularly the framing and structural supports. The word is most often used in the plural to describe how much structural strength in the form of girders, I-beams, etc. is in a given section."


-- Edited by Gene at 22:40, 2008-01-03

 

[Marin]

The Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines "scantling" as 1. a small quantity or amount, 2. dimensions of building materials, 3. a small beam or timber, especially one of small cross section, as a 2 x 4, 4. a small upright timber, as in the frame of a structure, 5. small beams or timbers collectively, 6. a rough draft or sketch.

 

[rednev]

the oxford dictionary adds ' set of standard dimensions for parts of structure esp in ship building'
i have heard the term used in the same way as ff uses it by numerous boat builders/users both in australia and the uk

 

[AdamT]

I think of the term as FF uses it as refering to stringers and bulkheads.

 

[Baker]

rednev wrote:

the oxford dictionary adds ' set of standard dimensions for parts of structure esp in ship building'
i have heard the term used in the same way as ff uses it by numerous boat builders/users both in australia and the uk

For fiberglass boats???




-- Edited by Baker at 10:01, 2008-01-04

 

[FF]

think of the term as FF uses it as refering to stringers and bulkheads.


Scantlings as I use it are the entire package , ALL the boat , hull deck, tank mountings , engine mount glass and door robustness , everything !

AS failure of only one part of the chain , will lead to failure , the lack of excellent construction , materials choice or poor equipment selection could lead to a disaster.

FF

 

[rednev]

for fiberglass boats ?
iso 12215 intro this part of iso 12215 applies to determination of design loads, pressures,stresses and to the determination of 'scantlings' including internal structual members of monohull small craftconstructed from fibre reinforced plastics,aluminium or steel alloys of up to 24m it only applies to intact boats.

frp =fiberglass=frozen snot yup its included

 

[Nomad Willy]

The term scantlings i'm quite sure has to do with primarly or entirely with dimemsions.
In addition I don't recall the term scantlings applied to cabin structures. Scantlings are
primarily hull thickness irreguardless of materials used in construction. Having said
that I looked it up ion the dictionary and here is the most relevent definition. " The
dimentions of a frame strake or other structural part used in shipbuilding".

Eric Henning
30 Willard
Thorne Bay AK

 

[Dark Side]

Having spent more time sailing offshore than is reasonable for one who worked for a living , I can assure you that a well found boat with sufficient scantlings is a joy forever.* So far, I've been on two boats that have lost their masts (we recovered one mast), one boat that lost it's centerboard (had to proceed under power in that there was NO windward ablility left), one boat that lost its rudder (we rigged a jury rudder and sailed it back from about 50 miles out), and one boat that started to come apart (VERY light scantlings -- we sailed her 200 miles home to New Orleans -- down wind).* I can also assure you that a heavily built boat is MUCH more assuring and MUCH more comfortable than a super light race boat.

Trawlers offer all the bells and whistles of sailing (except the fuel bill) with few of the trouble and travails of sailing.* It's work to sail.* It's also expensive to sail.* All that cloth costs money and has to be replaced REGULARLY and tended to with much attention while under way. *Additionally, when not racing, the wind is rarely helpful and MUCH time is spent under power.* The engine in a sailboat is rarely accessible as normally defined and I've spent more time than I care to remember crouched over that "monster in the basement".

I'm REALLY looking forward to some trawler experience and you may rest assured that engine accessability is high on my list of "druthers".

 

[grandbanksbayfield]

FF,

To be quite honest with you I think it is sailors that suffer from the "dream" with starry eyed romance in their eyes.**We live*in one of the most highly concentrated areas of sailboats in the country.* ANd there are thousands upon thousands of "bluewater" sailboats that go absolutely nowhere...and Catalinas and Hunters that go out every weekend.* SO who is the more accomplised boater in that group?....the guy with the bulletproof double ended tank that goes nowhere or the one that gets out there every weekend?*For the most part, powerboaters know what they have and they have no plans of crossing any oceans in your common production motorboat.* I guaran-damn-tee you(that's Texan language if you hadn't figgered it out) that the dude that buys a Sea Ray or a Carver has absolutely no intentions of offshore work, they just want to get on the water and can you blame them.* And I happen to one one of the brands you lump into your (worthless) pile....and where exactly is "somewhere"?* Because I would be happy to take it many places and have....with over 240 hours of use in less than a year of ownership.* I boat with the responders above and will have to say that you are picking on the wrong folks as far as boat usage goes. I, like Troy, have a job that keeps me away and I still manage to use my boat about 2-3 times A WEEK even if it is just for a Sundowner and a fish taco.

There is an artist down here that sings about the Galveston Bay area.* A song called "Redfish Island".* A line in it goes..."....He sweared that in a year or two, he'd lay his law books down.* Now the boat's for sale, and Jimmy's in the ground."* You can plan and dream all you want but get your azz out on the water because you ain't gonna live forever.

FF, boating is not just going around the world or even going across oceans.* We all do it differently and for different reasons(I have a job and a career)* It is enjoying life on the water.* ANd whatever gets you out there is the best boat for you or anyone.* I have always said that the closer*expectations*are to reality*(concerning a particular boat) the more likely that boat will be used often....it is as simple as that.

BTW, welcome to the Forum and I mean that sincerely.* You or your boats are not superior to anyone else's.* They are the ones that work for you.* Now lower your nose or you might run aground.

-- Edited by Baker at 16:36, 2007-10-17

I like what you say -- boats are for lots of different things and each boater defines what that is. Having just sold my wonderful cruising sailboat, a NorSea27, and bought a GB32, I have seen both sides. We used the NorSea a lot -- daysailing, long-distance cruising that included a lot of motoring. Had we wanted to cross an ocean we could have, but the Great Lakes were big and mean enough for us. Some things I did notice about sailors: They frequently pay little attention to their engines, although they at so essential if you really go someplace. Also, ones that race a lot stress out their rigs and snap masts. It frequently happens because they pay no attention to the fittings and fasteners on their masts. One thing coming loose (like a spreader) brings down the whole rig. The human element is always the most critical part of the whole deal, be it sailboats or trawlers.

 

[Donsan]

I am surprised to see some of the posters on this 10 year old thread are still around.

 

[geoleo]

The discussion has wandered a bit.* There are a few trawlers that sails have been added, and have consider/thought about adding sail to the Eagle some day.* I think in the very near future because of the cost of fuel that more hybrid trawler with sail will come to the market.* Motor sail next to use is being re rigged at a cost of 30 grand and I have spend some time helping, learning and talk a bit about adding sails to the Eagle.*

*
One thing I have learned/observed over the years the right side and left side inside passage are quite different which require different boats and capability.* The vast majority of the pleasure boats are for protected waters and maybe doing the right had side inside passage but to the right side in side passage and coastal cruising.*

*
I think that many sail boater convert to trawler in due time as they begin to realize that a strait heading of 6 to 8 knots is fast and less distance the a zig zag course and its much more comfortable being in an environmental protect heated/air condition helm. Besides most are actually motoring anyway.* (-;

*
The main point is to now YOUR boat and your own capability first and not as much as the other persons.* I would much rather be the one lending assistance than being the one assistance is being given to.* You know what I mean?

Unasked for advise: A motorsailer is a boat that neither sails or motors well"

 

[geoleo]

Well said

I had not seen this thread until a link was recently posted to it in another thread. I apologize if you were all hoping it was dead.

Regarding the photo that kicked it off, I'd have to give the folks credit for going home under power after their dismasting as opposed to on the end of a rope. I've crewed in some races back in the early 80s where boats were dismasted by sudden gusts and there's not a whole lot you can do except motor on home. It's a mess on deck and cutting sails and cables and sawing stuff apart is best left until the boat is tied up unless it's an open-ocean accident that has to be dealt with on the spot.

I've met a lot of trawler owners who used to sail. The reason given for the switch is often the fact that a sailboat got to be too much physical work. In some cases, someone's mobility wasn't what it used to be and getting around on a sailboat deck was getting too difficult. Some said they'd met their quota of hours in open or semi-open cockpits in the rain and wind during the winter and decided to make the switch to power rather than give up off-season boating.

My sailing experience is limited to a few seasons of racing in the early 80s and a bit of inter-island cruising in Hawaii in the '70s. But I've known a fair number of sailboaters and I've noticed that to most of them the voyage is the thing, not the getting there. This is something I can strongly relate to. As with my floatplane flying and even driving trips, I am always a little bummed out when we get where we're going in the boat. To me, and to a fair degree my wife, the enjoyment is in the going. The destination is just an excuse to take the boat out. And by destination I mean a town, a harbor, a marina, etc. We consider a remote bay that we might anchor in to still be a part of the "getting there."

Going slow, observing what's going on around them, watching the seabirds, watching the light changing on the water and islands are reasons I have heard from sailboaters who chose a trawler when switching to power. A slow powerboat most replicates what they enjoyed about going out in their sailboats.

I took this photo while we were following Carey's lobsterboat north through the islands back in late August.* The fog was burning off and the water was calm.* To me, this is what it's all about.


-- Edited by Marin at 15:43, 2007-12-27

Thank You-well said

 

[markpierce]

Unasked for advise: A motorsailer is a boat that neither sails or motors well"

I beg to differ. A motorsailer should motor well because the hull will be relatively efficient, needing minimal power to move up to hull speed, which is the most a proper trawler should attain. More than 80 HP is a waste.

 

[Insequent]

I am surprised to see some of the posters on this 10 year old thread are still around.

Grumpy old men live forever. Well, at least that's my plan!

 

[AusCan]

Unasked for advise: A motorsailer is a boat that neither sails or motors well"

Just what effect do sails have on a boat (other than added propulsion and stabilization) to make it a poor power boat?

 

[FF]

"Unasked for advise: A motorsailer is a boat that neither sails or motors well"

Perhaps 75 years ago this might have been true

BUT These days hulls for offshore are no longer 4x4 steamed oak ribs on 10 inch centers with 2 inch planking HEAVY HEAVY

And diesels are no longer 3000 lbs + 500 for a transmission for 50-80 hp, HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY.

Masts are no longer trees with spars hoisted .

A modern MS I call a 90/90 to space it from the historical boats. like a Marco Polo, which was created to transit offshore at about 10K, by Herrishoff .

The modern efficient cutter can be cruised by a crew of 2 , with interchangable sails, not window shades , and a modern 50 hp diesel that weighs less than the antique tranny.

A 100% pure sailboat ( no engine shaft or fuel) probably looses 10% with an engine installed.

A 100% pure displacement motor boat probably looses 10% to carry ballast , a mast and rigging to sail..

Hence the modern 90/90 MS concept.

956 Herreshoff Marco Polo 56 Schooner, Washougal - By Appt ...

www.boats.com/sailing-boats/1956-herreshoff-marco-polo-56-schooner-5155115/


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1979 Herreshoff Marco Polo. Philippine mahogany, long leaf yellow pine, silicon bronze. 60-hp Yanmar diesel, Three-blade feathering prop. New shaft, thrust bearing. Cruises 8 knots; 9.5 knots max. Partially rebuilt and structurally sound. New masts and rigging. Needs new interior, head, galley, cosmetics. Cancer forces ...

 

[Baker]

I went to a boat show last year and what intrigued me was a Lagoon 45 sailing cat. It made me realize one of the things I do not like about sailboats is the seating position or seating area while operating the boat. The Lagoon 45 has a full flybridge. And all of the sudden I was like.....WOW....I could do this!!!! I would operate it as a motorsailer. There are 2 small efficient diesels(small yanmars) that could easily power the boat at 8 knots burnig almost nothing. And if the wind was anywhere but OFN, you could raise a sail and back off the throttles. Or if the wind was perfect(if you are a sailor then you know that is rare...hahaha), turn the engines off and enjoy the ride.

Anyway, I guess my point here is by just adding a flybridge I saw an entirely different boat and/or a different perspective.

 

[AusCan]

I went to a boat show last year and what intrigued me was a Lagoon 45 sailing cat. It made me realize one of the things I do not like about sailboats is the seating position or seating area while operating the boat. The Lagoon 45 has a full flybridge. And all of the sudden I was like.....WOW....I could do this!!!! I would operate it as a motorsailer. There are 2 small efficient diesels(small yanmars) that could easily power the boat at 8 knots burnig almost nothing. And if the wind was anywhere but OFN, you could raise a sail and back off the throttles. Or if the wind was perfect(if you are a sailor then you know that is rare...hahaha), turn the engines off and enjoy the ride.

Anyway, I guess my point here is by just adding a flybridge I saw an entirely different boat and/or a different perspective.

The Lagoon 45's certainly are nice boats. The flybridge with stair access and great vision adds so much.

 

[geoleo]

Just what effect do sails have on a boat (other than added propulsion and stabilization) to make it a poor power boat?

No flybridge is one--unless you have a Cat

 

[psneeld]

Need to cruise more or google more.....there are sailboats/motorsailers with flying bridges....

 

[Baker]

Need to cruise more or google more.....there are sailboats/motorsailers with flying bridges....

I know that. But every one I have seen has been pretty spartan...not a lot of space....almost an afterthought. I have seen one that I liked but it was on a boat pushing 60 feet. I don't remember the builder but it was a relatively well known one. 60 feet is just too much boat.

 

[cardude01]

I went to a boat show last year and what intrigued me was a Lagoon 45 sailing cat. It made me realize one of the things I do not like about sailboats is the seating position or seating area while operating the boat. The Lagoon 45 has a full flybridge. And all of the sudden I was like.....WOW....I could do this!!!! I would operate it as a motorsailer. There are 2 small efficient diesels(small yanmars) that could easily power the boat at 8 knots burnig almost nothing. And if the wind was anywhere but OFN, you could raise a sail and back off the throttles. Or if the wind was perfect(if you are a sailor then you know that is rare...hahaha), turn the engines off and enjoy the ride.

Anyway, I guess my point here is by just adding a flybridge I saw an entirely different boat and/or a different perspective.

Baker,

That’s pretty much exactly how I use my boat— put up the sails when the wind is right, pull the rpm back and put along pretty quietly. I don’t have a flybridge but have a comfortable pilothouse where I can sit in my good helm chair and enjoy the view, or sit in the front cockpit in the shade of the main and steer with the remote.

Getting a catamaran with a FB is what my wife would like to do if we ever get another boat. I would like to get a sailing cat with real engine rooms and direct drive instead of saildrives so it would be better under power, but that’s been hard to find unless it’s custom. Like this:

With this one I think I could forgo the FB— it has an interesting interior helm and a forward cockpit for checking/setting the sails.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...-2984693/Oxford/MD/United-States#.Wl0oxStMGEc

 

[Baker]

Baker,

That’s pretty much exactly how I use my boat— put up the sails when the wind is right, pull the rpm back and put along pretty quietly. I don’t have a flybridge but have a comfortable pilothouse where I can sit in my good helm chair and enjoy the view, or sit in the front cockpit in the shade of the main and steer with the remote.

Getting a catamaran with a FB is what my wife would like to do if we ever get another boat. I would like to get a sailing cat with real engine rooms and direct drive instead of saildrives so it would be better under power, but that’s been hard to find unless it’s custom. Like this:

With this one I think I could forgo the FB— it has an interesting interior helm and a forward cockpit for checking/setting the sails.
2009 DeVilliers FWD Cockpit Cat Aluminum Ketch Rigged Yacht Sail Boat For

Hey...it's only $850k!!!.... It is an interesting boat!!!

With that said...that brand new Lagoon 45 was $650k!!!! And that was fully fitted out...sails, canvas, cusions, electronics, air conditioners, generators. While still a buttload of cash, I thought it was a pretty damn good deal. a few years ago it was a million dollar boat. But the Euro has been losing against the dollar for awhile. Anyway, if I were at that same boat show with the full intention of buying my retirement boat...that one would have had me scratching my head....especially since it is fully capable of passagemaking.

 

[Insequent]

Baker,

That’s pretty much exactly how I use my boat— put up the sails when the wind is right, pull the rpm back and put along pretty quietly. I don’t have a flybridge but have a comfortable pilothouse where I can sit in my good helm chair and enjoy the view, or sit in the front cockpit in the shade of the main and steer with the remote.

Getting a catamaran with a FB is what my wife would like to do if we ever get another boat. I would like to get a sailing cat with real engine rooms and direct drive instead of saildrives so it would be better under power, but that’s been hard to find unless it’s custom. Like this:

With this one I think I could forgo the FB— it has an interesting interior helm and a forward cockpit for checking/setting the sails.
2009 DeVilliers FWD Cockpit Cat Aluminum Ketch Rigged Yacht Sail Boat For

well here you go, this should work nicely! I'd like the 55' myself

https://www.isarayachts.com/isara-45

 

[cardude01]

I forgot to say that cat was just a dreaming kind of boat with a dreaming price. $850k is not my budget! [emoji23]