58’ Hatteras detroit diesel 8v92TI with serious engine problems

[mvweebles]

I can't imagine a decent diesel mechanic signing off on the engines with a full RPM load test. There would have to be some noise relative to stuck and broken piston rings and chipped pistons.

This is a very good point. Only adjustment I'd make is no mechanic needed on this one: engine was unlikely to survive a 5-minute WOT test (YT mechanic said buyer said it was always 'hard starter' indicating low compression).

I've long suggested the buying process start with a rigorous sea trial being the first substantive step in post-contract due diligence (see Sea Trial Template HERE in TF's <resources> section). Having a mechanic and surveyor along is a good thing but even solo a lot can be evaluated. More than likely would have saved the buyer a bucketload of cash.

My question is, why isn't the buyer making a very public fuss? Has he lawyered up? Is he just very low key, easy going and just says "que sera sera?" Or, did he skimp on the engine survey based on the overall condition of the boat and previous knowledge of Detroit engines?

Maybe the buyer knew there was a defect and negotiated a healthy credit, just turned out much worse than expected (no way he would have left for Florida if he'd know the extent of the damage). As mentioned above, sounds like he knew the engine was a hard-starter. If so, he gambled and lost - would explain buyer's relative silence. Who knows what he negotiated - maybe he hoped for the best/planned for the worst.......and the worst happened. Might be misleading to read too much into the survey or mechanic without that part of the backstory.

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

Aside from the internet confusion (intentional?), “the rest of the story” will hopefully come out. A very big issue today is the paucity of good DD mechanics (they’ll be older) to conduct an 8V specific sea trial. On these old, and likely run hard engines, a good engine survey entails some pre-operational wrenching and service document review.

A good DD survey on these engines will be expensive if done right, easily costing $2K per engine. Great old engines but a proper survey in no way resembles what we might feel is adequate for a Lehman, Perkins or Cummins. This is especially true for the 8-16V92 Detroits.

 

[rslifkin]

As far as a repower goes there is so much more than just the cost of the new engines. As to $20K for a rebuilt 6BT, that is what they were quoting me 20+ years ago. I have not checked on price recently but I expect they have gone up. There is transmission, engine mounts, exhaust, wiring, gauges and cleanup of the engine room, cause why not if you have the engines out? Then there is the Hatteras dual engine rooms so each room will have to be cut open to get access to the engines. It is an almost endless list of work at $100+ per hour. Would I love to repower if it were my boat, yes but it would likely cost what he paid for the boat. There are always unexpected things to fix or replace. Ever watch some of Tony Athens repower videos? They always find things that weren’t expected, some minor and some major.

Absolutely agreed. And then there's the question of how much you have to disassemble and reassemble on the new engines to get them into the boat. Things like that just add to the labor costs as well as the potential problems to encounter once it's all together and time for startup.

I looked at some very basic numbers for my own boat a couple years ago. If I wanted diesels, a pair of QSB 5.9s or 6.7s, new transmissions, etc. would easily be $120k or more by the time everything is all said and done. Plus another $10 - 15k for a new generator if I didn't just delete that in the repower.

 

[O C Diver]

Aside from the internet confusion (intentional?), “the rest of the story” will hopefully come out. A very big issue today is the paucity of good DD mechanics (they’ll be older) to conduct an 8V specific sea trial. On these old, and likely run hard engines, a good engine survey entails some pre-operational wrenching and service document review.

A good DD survey on these engines will be expensive if done right, easily costing $2K per engine. Great old engines but a proper survey in no way resembles what we might feel is adequate for a Lehman, Perkins or Cummins. This is especially true for the 8-16V92 Detroits.

One feature that I believe applies to both the 71 and 92 series engines is the ability to pull covers on the sides of the engine to inspect both the pistons and liners. In this particular case, stuck rings, broken rings, chipped pistons and scored liners would have been obvious.

Ted

 

[slowgoesit]

Aside from the internet confusion (intentional?), “the rest of the story” will hopefully come out. A very big issue today is the paucity of good DD mechanics (they’ll be older) to conduct an 8V specific sea trial. On these old, and likely run hard engines, a good engine survey entails some pre-operational wrenching and service document review.

A good DD survey on these engines will be expensive if done right, easily costing $2K per engine. Great old engines but a proper survey in no way resembles what we might feel is adequate for a Lehman, Perkins or Cummins. This is especially true for the 8-16V92 Detroits.

Tom, I agree with cost estimates above, but the level of reported damage should have raised red flags long before an entire, indepth survey of the engine had been completed. As stated previously, oil analysis alone, for less that $100/engine/gear would have told the story.

 

[Sababa]

OK, so let’s say a repower costs $200k. Wouldn’t it still make more sense than rebuilding? Not sure what they paid for it but looks like it was listed for $269k. Surely it would be worth more than $200k with brand new engines vs being basically worthless now. How much of the cost of an in frame rebuild of just one engine would go back to the value of the boat? The other engine has to be suspect given how badly this one has been abused. Even with two rebuilt Detroits I can’t imagine the boat would be worth as much as it would be with two new Cummins units. $200k to repower vs $160k to rebuild seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[tiltrider1]

OK, so let’s say a repower costs $200k. Wouldn’t it still make more sense than rebuilding? Not sure what they paid for it but looks like it was listed for $269k. Surely it would be worth more than $200k with brand new engines vs being basically worthless now. How much of the cost of an in frame rebuild of just one engine would go back to the value of the boat? The other engine has to be suspect given how badly this one has been abused. Even with two rebuilt Detroits I can’t imagine the boat would be worth as much as it would be with two new Cummins units. $200k to repower vs $160k to rebuild seems like a no brainer to me.

Well, this is one of those devil in the details questions. Are we starting with a Bristol boat or a 40 year old tired Hatteras. How will we be using it. Finally, will anyone really pay more for it because it was repowered?

I simply don’t know all the answers. I have seen 8v71 Hatteras’s get repowered but only after the owner dropped $800,000 on a remodel, doubt it sold for $1,000,000 later on, I know the owner didn’t care, it was what he wanted.

I have almost never seen a case where repowering made sense with a pleasure boat. I will grant you almost is not every case. Where I have seen it make sense is usually replacing 12v71’s in 30kt Sport Fishers.

 

[Comodave]

Maybe the owner doesn’t have the money to do a repower right after buying the boat??? Everyone here is just assuming that he/she has lots of ready cash.

 

[High Wire]

I've been watching the series and had a few thoughts:

1. If I had bought that boat I would be going after the surveyor and previous owner, the price for this boat and ad tells a very different story than the internals of the engine. Someone got taken.... Hard to believe there was a proper engine survey done.
2. How many Detroit gurus are there still working who can take on a job like this in-situ? I'm not afraid to turn a wrench, but these in frame rebuilds look pretty difficult to do.
3. I cringe when I see them tromping around on the carpet with greasy shoes and lugging parts up the stairs and dropping cylinders on the hardwood floor. The owner seems to be there, but putting down some protection would seem prudent unless you were planning to rip all the carpet out.
4. How could you possibly clean out all the grit from the engine block while it's in the boat? I would want to be sure every bit of grit was blasted out of the block.
5. I don't even want to know how much this will cost, it's got to be depressing for the owner.

3- The owner told them to not worry about the floors and carpets. They were all getting replaced anyway. BTW, the owner appears occasionally in the videos making a mess too.

 

[Comodave]

3- The owner told them to not worry about the floors and carpets. They were all getting replaced anyway. BTW, the owner appears occasionally in the videos making a mess too.

Maybe he has allocated his money for updating the boat so he just wants to get the one engine repaired. Then over time rebuild the other engine and he should be good for the rest of his life as to engines l

 

[O C Diver]

I have almost never seen a case where repowering made sense with a pleasure boat. I will grant you almost is not every case. Where I have seen it make sense is usually replacing 12v71’s in 30kt Sport Fishers.

The repower worked very well for my boat. Several things come into play regarding the profitability of doing it for a recreational boat.

First, you have to plan on using the boat a lot (many thousands of hours during your ownership).

Second, the numbers work better if the new engine(s) are going to be more fuel efficient.

Third, labor has become a substantial cost whether rebuilding or repowering. If you can do most of the install yourself, the numbers improve.

Fourth, is the current engine worth anything. At the point where the owner is doing this, the engine probably has a zero value. A running take out of a V 8 - 92 might be worth a few thousand. If you're selling something built in this century, substantially better.

Do to the difficulty (read expense) of removing an engine that wasn't designed to be removed, that probably tips the scales towards rebuilding. Finally, with a purchase price of only $269K, there's probably no overcoming the cost of repowering twins, a single would be significantly easier.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

Yes, Ted, but you were the anomaly in pleasure boating. You put probably 10 to 20 times as many hours as most boaters do. So in your case it made a lot of sense to repower and you had a singqle engine to do. The difference in fuel efficiency actually made a difference in your case. Most boaters will never recover enough to make a repower economical.

 

[BruceK]

Survey or not, the engine is in such poor condition I`d have thought most people would have been alerted to investigate. Surely there were signs all was not well during a sea trial. Even at start up. But that may just be my unfamiliarity with this particular engine model. Could the condition not be apparent for some reason?
Having seen the videos, and a positive owner/customer, there is a lot to recommend the repairer,bus specialist or not he seems to know his engine and how to work in a confined space.

 

[O C Diver]

Yes, Ted, but you were the anomaly in pleasure boating. You put probably 10 to 20 times as many hours as most boaters do. So in your case it made a lot of sense to repower and you had a singqle engine to do. The difference in fuel efficiency actually made a difference in your case. Most boaters will never recover enough to make a repower economical.

I think I made that pretty clear in the second paragraph. My guess would be that less than 5% of boat owners would put 3,000 hours on their boat before selling it, so repowering wouldn't be cost effective.

To your second point, I doubt 80% of boat owners have to repower or rebuild their engine(s). So we're likely talking about a very small minority to start with.

Ted

 

[Rearmount]

A quick story about a similar situation. I work for a marine mechanic mostly commercial. We service a similar boat with 1271's for a private customer. After a long trip home, one engine in this customers Hat developed problems. We figured out several slightly bent rods. Owner wanted us to just do top end. My boss said no way and recommended taking the engine out. Engine was sent to Leid Diesel in Pennsylvania for rebuild. Guess what? Crankshaft was cracked and had to be replaced and a top end rebuild would have been a failure after a short time. Also on most of these boats, the engines have to come out of the side of the boat as the galley is above engine room and the helm above that. If you have ever been on one of these 2 engine room Hats, this is no small job as most ship systems fastened to outside of the hull. Good luck whoever owns this. I wish I took some pics.

 

[Sababa]

Also on most of these boats, the engines have to come out of the side of the boat as the galley is above engine room and the helm above that

If you look at the pictures of the repowered Hatteras I posted, you will see that there is a big, non-opening skylight in the galley. I think I saw this boat at the boats afloat show a couple of years ago after the repower but before the further interior refresh and didn't put two and two together to realize that it is the same boat until just now. The engines on that boat are located right under that forward galley, and the broker told me that they got the old ones out and new ones in by cutting in that skylight and removing the galley sole. The end result is so nice that you'd think it had originally been designed that way.

 

[sunchaser]

Tom, I agree with cost estimates above, but the level of reported damage should have raised red flags long before an entire, indepth survey of the engine had been completed. As stated previously, oil analysis alone, for less that $100/engine/gear would have told the story.

Scott
You are correct in that a savvy new potential owner should have noticed a few tell tales. My curiosity centers on this saga being made for utube all along thus a qualifying boat was sought out and found.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Couple comments - if the boat was owned by a business as an entertainment venue, we may all be participating in this rebuild.
As an aside, 6BT Cummins may give you 7 knots, but if the weather turns snotty offshore I'd be sorry w all that windage

 

[Sababa]

Couple comments - if the boat was owned by a business as an entertainment venue, we may all be participating in this rebuild.
As an aside, 6BT Cummins may give you 7 knots, but if the weather turns snotty offshore I'd be sorry w all that windage

Why so? 6BTs come in ratings up to 380
HP, which matches up pretty evenly with 8V71s.

 

[tiltrider1]

Why so? 6BTs come in ratings up to 380
HP, which matches up pretty evenly with 8V71s.

The boat in question has 8v92’s which are 550 HP engines.

 

[Comodave]

Gus at “In Too Deep” youtube channel had a 50’ Hatteras with 6Bs in it and it had plenty of power. I would not be concerned about 6Bs in the boat in this thread.

 

[Sababa]

The boat in question has 8v92’s which are 550 HP engines.

Gus at “In Too Deep” youtube channel had a 50’ Hatteras with 6Bs in it and it had plenty of power. I would not be concerned about 6Bs in the boat in this thread.

Except that this is a 58 rather than a 50, and it looks like you can only get the reconned 6BTs up to 280 HP. Beginning to see why rebuilding one in frame and praying for the other makes sense.

 

[Comodave]

Sorry, but you won’t convince me that there is that big a difference between a 50’ and a 58’. If you only run at slow speeds it would be fine with 6Bs. No way they would get it up on plane though. But most people don’t run these big Hatts on plane.

 

[Sababa]

Lots of interesting info in the BGM live question video from NYD. He is about $5k in on the job and a third of the way through. Owner is a diesel mechanic himself but without tools on board who is doing a lot of the prep work himself to keep costs down. Rebuild kit for the engine is $3500, total cost for the job might be as little as $20k. Does not think the owner did a survey before the purchase. Seller may not have known since it sat in the marina as a party boat for years. One cause among many may have been using wrong oil.

 

[tiltrider1]

I watched the video. It appears that no engine survey work was performed before purchase. The boat had been a dock queen for many years. The wrong oil was discovered and the engine showed a lack of scheduled services. Ultimately, the engine suffered from excessive idling and a major heat event on one side. Heat sensor on the damaged side was found to be non operative. What caused the heat event is not known(sucking a plastic bag can be common on rivers).

The purchaser is supposedly a diesel mechanic. I have not heard if he paid full price or negotiated a deal based on some prior knowledge of engine potential issues.

Detroit Diesels are great motors but the 92 series does not tolerate being over heated. Rebuild looks like it is going to come in around $30,000. This is due to the owner doing a lot of the work himself.

I’m sure there is more story to come.

 

[lwarden]

I was surprised to hear a rebuild kit including new cylinders and pistons is only $3.500.

 

[Mako]

As an aside, 6BT Cummins may give you 7 knots, but if the weather turns snotty offshore I'd be sorry w all that windage

Completely qualitative statement. How much horsepower does someone need for their own use case and to satisfy their own personal beliefs?

Sorry, but you won’t convince me that there is that big a difference between a 50’ and a 58’. If you only run at slow speeds it would be fine with 6Bs. No way they would get it up on plane though. But most people don’t run these big Hatts on plane.

Let's try to quantify, and run an exercise on repowering the big Hatt58. For my particular case I only cruise at 8 knots. Never a desire to do 12 kts or 17 kts or whatever that big, heavy, bluff blowed boat thinks it can do at $5 per gallon for diesel.

Assume you either own or can buy that boat at such a fantastic price, and with intentions of keeping it "forever" ie., 20 years, with long range coastal cruising in mind. So you want to repower and get rid of those 90 year old engines. Reduce noise, maintenance costs and increase your fuel efficiency to make better use of the limited 1000 gallons of fuel onboard.

80,000 lb boat plus stores and 2/3 liquids, so say about 40 metric tons.

You need 100hp in smooth water for 8.0 kts, and 190hp for hull speed of 9.7 kts (VicProp). However, under "normal" conditions on the ICW with big fetch or out on the ocean with 1-2ft waves and 10 knots wind on the nose, you need at least 10% more.

But @SIBERNUT raises a good question about windage at sea. Let me ask, what wind/sea state can the boat operate in (on the nose) while still desiring to maintain 8.0 knots? At some point you need to slow down. That's a bluff bowed, wet boat. So roughly I'd say 6-8 ft short steep seas with 15-20 knots. After that you're pulling the throttles back.

There are calcs to estimate it, but how about we say that you need double the power to maintain that speed? 200 hp total. Let's assume your engine is operating at 80% continuous at that point. 250 hp total.

Conclusion: to repower that Hatt58 as a long range, 8 knot coastal cruiser, you'd want twin 6B naturals at 120hp apiece. Maybe a pair of Tier-3 Kubotas from BetaMarine but those are high-rpm engines so you'll need a high ratio marine gear. Since the big diameter props now only need to absorb a fraction of the power, the props will be higher efficiency, maybe 0.60 instead of the average 0.55, thus more gains there. Now you've gained a 20%+ increase in fuel efficiency as well - not that will ever pay for the cost of a repower, but it helps make you smile .

There ya go. You can throw tomatoes at me now.

 

[BVrolyk]

I've rebuilt three Detroit 2-cycle engines. They weren't "V" series. But, in both the 4/71 and 6/71 the rebuild was done in place as removal from the sailboats was going to cost a lot in dismantled furniture. The actual engine rebuild was quite trivial compared to a car/truck 4 stroke engine and parts were inexpensive. If memory serves the rebuilds took about 2 weeks of my time, most of it waiting for the machine shop to surface the head and install new valve guides and seats. I just bought a new cam shaft and bearings, honed the bores and replaced the connecting rods (both engines had been water-locked). I never opened the crank main bearings. New pistons, rings, connecting rods, and the associate bearings. (I still have one of bent connecting rods around here someplace. The boat had been driven about 800 miles with 2 of the 4/71 connecting rods banging into the skirt of the cylinder. Measuring the damage, it wasn't worth fixing as the interference between bent connecting rod and the cylinder skirt was below where the piston normally went.

Both engines are still running, one has over 2,500 hrs on my rebuild and the other and nearly 4,000 hrs. I think each partial rebuild costs about $4-6k in parts and my time which was no more than 80 hours at $40/hr (Cash no taxes etc...) So, probably a total cost of well under $10k.

An old 2-cycle Detroit is one of the most reliable, and noisiest engines I've ever known. I owned a boat with a 4/71, and it loved to run nearly flat out. Never missed a beat, never failed to start, and if you kept the roots blower bearing seals refreshed it never ran away. (Although these are known for it.) BTW, MTU (that now owns Detroit) is selling remanufactured 2-cycle engines with a warranty, and has all the parts you'll ever need. They are sold under the MTU "Reliabilt" name.

(Update: I missed the original post that this is a turbo engine. That could up the cost of a rebuild, but the Detroit turbos don't normal need help. It does put a hell of a lot more load on the bottom end.)

 

[jimfrens]

I’m not that familiar with series 92 engines, but I have a friend with 8v71 engines and he learned to do in frame rebuilds himself. He’s not a diesel guru, just a dedicated owner. Although it sounds like these engines are way beyond a simple overhaul / resleeve job.

 

[tiltrider1]

8v92 is just a bigger 8v71.