rslifkin
Guru
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2019
- Messages
- 7,961
- Location
- Rochester, NY
- Vessel Name
- Hour Glass
- Vessel Make
- Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Slightly warm at full load is perfectly normal. If they're not, then the cables would be significantly oversized.
Weil, its partly you! The front page of the data sheet says screw OR MC4 connectors. The picture is of the screw connector model. So fair enough, you don't see them. But, page 2 of the data sheet notes 2 pairs of MC4 connectors.Perhaps it is me, but I don't see the MC4 connectors. The green connection block is exactly what I have and that is the one that is giving me problems. I do have MC4 connectors near the panels, the panels come with them.
I am missing how to get the wire size used into an MC4 connector. As I recall line loss was a concern for the distance from panels to controller.Here you go. Data sheet attached. These models have 2 pairs of MC4's, while other models have 3 pairs of them. You need multiple 6mm2 wire pairs if you have long cable runs. You likely have voltage drop in your current installation.
Thanks. I guess one thing I’m wondering is what level of resistance does standard boat cable have. There is a UL spec for boat cable, but I don’t know it off hand.
The Main Difference
There are enormous differences between flame-retardant cables and fire-resistive cables. Typically, flame-retardant cables resist the spread of fire into a new area, whereas fire-resistive cables maintain circuit integrity and continue to work for a specific time under defined conditions. These circuit integrity cables continue to operate in the presence of a fire and are sometimes called 1-hour or 2-hour fire-rated cables. The differences between these two ratings are essential for the critical circuits required for life safety requirements.
Frequently Asked Questions
Is a flame-retardant cable also fire-rated?
No. A flame-retardant cable is not a fire-rated cable. A flame-retardant cable is designed only to restrict the spread of a fire by inhibiting combustion. Fire-resistive cables maintain circuit integrity and continue to work for a specific time under defined conditions such as fire.
The insulation of a normal cable can burn and will also burn if it becomes too hot. The cables that I now have will not burn (unless the whole boat burns down), so they will not become a source of a fire.BTW, what exactly is fire proof, or fire resistant wire? Is there some standard that it meets?
Yesterday we had our second scare in a one year period. Luckily we were onboard when I suddenly smelled the typical scent of an electrical fire. So I jumped in the lazarette, shut everything down and found out that the connection of the cables of one solar panel, leading into the MPPT controller had come loose and subsequently started the melting of the connection block on the MPPT controller.
Would I not have intervened it would have ended up in a fire and possibly loss of the whole boat.
Last year I also had a beginning fire and the cause of the fire was identical, the screws holding the cable had loosened up due to the vibrations of the boat in heavy seas. After the first fire I decided to check all the connections every month, which means that every month I tighten up all the screws / nuts which connect cables. The last time I did it was 3 weeks ago, since that time we have put another 50 hours on the engines and quite a bit of it was in rough weather, so a lot of vibrations.
My question is if anyone has the same problems with connections coming loose and if so, what did you do to stop them from coming loose ? It is absurd that I have to start checking all the connections now on a weekly basis, there has to be a better solution. Unfortunately the producer of the equipment has the position that there is nothing wrong, it is all a matter of incorrect installation by a non knowledgeable installer according to them. I.o.w. not their problem and no need to change anything in the design.
Reason ?
This MPPT controller needs a 5 mm2 cable with cable shoe.
In the country where this equipment was installed a 5 mm2 cable is not available, it is either 4 or 6 mm2 and thus the 6 mm2 was used. As a result however the combination of 6 mm2 plus cable shoe does not fit in the connection block of the MPPT controller and thus the shoe was left out. According to the producer that is the cause of the problem and it is not their problem, I should have used to correct cable and shoe. The fact that those are perhaps not for sale in certain countries does not register with them.
I have e-mailed with a representative of this company and must say that it is clear I am dealing with a sales person. Everything is the mistake of the user and company that installed it. He even went so far that I should tell companies to go to the producer for further training, i.o.w. I have to start doing their job.
Anyway, if anyone has similar experiences I would like to hear it, but mostly I am looking for solutions to stop the cables from coming loose while underway.
I don't have a 12 V system, I have a 24 V system onboard and according to Victron the max Watts of a panel can be 400, that is what I have.Mambo42. This is so wrong on every level. I don't know what size solar panels you have BUT given you have a 15A solar charger you would have for this unit 220w of power to convert to 12v. The range of input voltage would be 18v (lowest) to lets pick yours is max 75v. This would be 12amps for 18v & less than 3amps for 75v & that is how you size the PV panels wire. Look at the size of the wires on your panels to see. No point in such large wires going in. Next If the shoe is too large then file it down to fit the terminals. The victron terminals will hold the wires of the correct size but the shoe will provide the best connection. Best you terminate all the wires again & if you stick with the ones you have remove the extra wires until you can get a proper connection. Maybe seek a victron installer to ensure it is to standard. To see that much heating leads me to think you have low voltage input but the controller will only ever take the rated power not what the panels could deliver.
Regards
ps Check out aircraft wires for a closer size.
Just read the manual of Victron 100 / 15 MPPT controller and you will find out that it can handle a 400 W solar panel.220watts is the specs for any output power 12v or 24v. The input requirement for the MTTP unit would be approx 7% more @ 235watts. Would need to know what the voltage is going into the MTTP to get the real max & min current involved. I personally use aircraft wiring where necessary on my boat. (flame retartant).The shoe is flat and gives a wide clamp area. The clamp action of the screw terminal on the victron will fan out & flatten the wires to allow max current.
Do you work for Victron ?If indeed the ferrule comes off of the copper conductor "real easy" perhaps the maker of this unavailable video should acquire and learn how to use the proper ferrule and crimper.
With respect to the proper 5 mm2 wire's availability in Europe, Ancor's 10 AWG Marine Primary Wire, which has an area of 5.26 mm2 is offered from stock by the following firms, who all call it 5mm2 wire:
- Bluemarinestore, from Spain.
- Energig, in Denmark.
- Marine Parts Direct in Dublin.
- Poseidon Marine from Bulgaria
- Amazon.nl or .de or .be. Take your pick!
If you have no confidence that any of these firms is actually going to deliver, then if you go to the Pacer Group's website you will find a 30+ year old family owned company that actually manufacturers Marine Grade wire that is UL1426, ABYC & USCG compliant.
I find it more flexible than Ancor's product.
They will also supply you with good quality ferrules and the proper crimper, plus any other terminals you may need.
All shipped to Greece from Florida. Likely in about a week.
10 AWG Marine wire fits the MPPT's terminal without a ferrule or with a ferrule, just carefully look at what CMS has already offered.
To continue to maintain that you can't get, in effect 5mm2 Marine Grade Primary wire in Europe is simply absurd.
Thanks for the tip, managed to change it, video should now be visible.Right click on the video, copy the URL and open in a new tab.
It is a you-tube video that shows the new Orion XS. Which does in fact have real electrical terminal lug screws. An improvement that would have prevented the OP experiencing this issue (and it's 263 comments to date)
I have been thinking about a solution, but even clamping down the cables so that they cannot move anymore is, most likely, not going to solve the problem. It is not that the cable is being pulled out that causes the problem, it is the connection screw that comes loose which causes the overheat, melting and subsequent fire.OP, I haven't read the entire 9 pages, but on another note, when you work in safety management and risk reduction strategies, the first and best order of business is to eliminate the problem.
What can you do to eliminate/minimize the vibrations? Some vibration isolators, which could be as simple as rubber mounts, perhaps.
You're sharing a video by a guy that has no clue, is using horribly cheap Chinese crimpers on the ferrules and crimps the pin terminals incorrectly. ?He also is not using a torque spec....I don't have a 12 V system, I have a 24 V system onboard and according to Victron the max Watts of a panel can be 400, that is what I have.
For 15 Amps, according to Victron, I should use a 5 mm2 cable, which you cannot get in Europe (is next to impossible), so a 6 mm2 cable was chosen.
Now, I know a lot of you have been saying a ferrule should be used. All of you I would like to point to a video that was published today about Victron, ferrules, cables etc. All the things I have been stating are basically acknowledged by the maker of this video, a guy that I don't know. He actually demonstrates that a ferrule comes off the cable real easy, so what is the point of a ferrule ?
Also the main distributor of Victron has told Victron that the connection block of the MPPT controller should be changed.
And guess what. If you look at the Orion you will see that the connection block has changed, now it is safe. So you can ask yourself: 'why is Victron refusing to warn customers for the connection block of MPPT controllers ?
In fact, if that connection block is so safe...............why did they make a new MPPT controller with a MC4 connector ?
Maybe you should start answering those questions instead of coming up with more excuses for this flawed design ?
In the video he also shows the new connection blocks that Victron uses now in different equipment, where the problem has been solved.
So now the question becomes: 'why does Victron change the connection blocks in some equipment and not in all equipment ?'
They use bigger terminals in the XS 50 because it is 50A not 15A. The XS 50 also requires the use of ferrules under safety standards as grub screws are not allowed to directly impinge on the bare wire..
As stated, the MPPT controller itself functions fine, they do their work perfect, so if Victron would just come up with a different connection block the MPPT controllers would be great. I have called the main distributor in the Netherlands for the MPPT controller with the MC4 connectors, but they don't sell them. No idea why but they don't. have them in the inventory.