'14 33-Hybrid Victron Quattro Failure

[PeterB40]

48V/5000W/70A/120VAC. Failed when AirCon running and dock AC inadvertently unplugged in prep. for leaving the dock. I switched the on/off several times - no lights except a brief flash of Inverter and Charging lights, then nothing. Re-plugged the dock 120V, but all AC circuits remained dead as it seems that there is no parallel 120V circuit outside the box.

All 48V fuses intact in the several connection boxes, and I removed the lower (connection) panel of the unit to verifiy that 48VDV was reaching it, but had the dock power unplugged for 120VAC safety in that confined space.

I'm hoping for some feedback about others' experiences with their unit - repair locally, factory service, etc. - and also about the advisability of removing the AC input and output cables from the unit and coupling them together for dockside AC service at least until the unit is sorted.

Thanks for any suggestions here,
Pete

 

[ScottC]

Wow. Unfotunate!
One simple thing to check, if you haven't already: Is the unit switched on?
I'm not trying to insult your intelligence here ;-)
On a number of occasions, I have experienced what seems to be a "dead" Victron charger, only to find that while working in the bilge I, or a mechanic, accidentally bumped the rocker switch on the front of the Victron. It should always be in the "on" position. So - easy to check...and if you're lucky, that's all the problem is!

 

[twistedtree]

And try and off/on cycle with that switch, if you haven’t already.

Also, if there is a practical way to remove the 48V input for a minute or so, that would ensure a full restart.

 

[PeterB40]

Wow. Unfotunate!
One simple thing to check, if you haven't already: Is the unit switched on?
I'm not trying to insult your intelligence here ;-)
On a number of occasions, I have experienced what seems to be a "dead" Victron charger, only to find that while working in the bilge I, or a mechanic, accidentally bumped the rocker switch on the front of the Victron. It should always be in the "on" position. So - easy to check...and if you're lucky, that's all the problem is!

Checked several times, cycled on/off to no effect, took the lower face-plate off yesterday to check connections, and hoped to find a re-set button. Bilge time is hard time!

 

[ScottC]

Checked several times, cycled on/off to no effect, took the lower face-plate off yesterday to check connections, and hoped to find a re-set button. Bilge time is hard time!

Ouch. Then it sounds like you need to get a Victon-knowledgeable specialist involved. In the Victron configuration utility (for which you need a special dongle and software), there is a tick box to be ticked if you want the unit to provide UPS (uninterruptable power supply) funtionality. The scenario you describe makes me wonder if this is ticked "on" (it should be on). But again, if you don't have the software or the dongle, you need to call a Victron specialist to come have a look.

 

[PeterB40]

And try and off/on cycle with that switch, if you haven’t already.

Done - no effect.

Also, if there is a practical way to remove the 48V input for a minute or so, that would ensure a full restart.

Great idea! I'll just remove the 48V pos. battery lead with Victron switch off, then re-connect after a minute or so and turn switch back on.

 

[ScottC]

Great idea! I'll just remove the 48V pos. battery lead with Victron switch off, then re-connect after a minute or so and turn switch back on.

Before removing the cable, try cycling the hybrid/house 48V master switch, if you haven't already.

 

[PeterB40]

Before removing the cable, try cycling the hybrid/house 48V master switch, if you haven't already.

Cycling done several times. Unfortunately the '14 33 model has no external or internal switches to the 48V fuse box inside the aft compartment of the Port seat. That would be too easy!

Pete

 

[twistedtree]

I’m not sure what they protect, but I think I recall seeing a couple of small fuses inside my Quattro. If there are any, removing and testing them is probably worthwhile.

 

[PeterB40]

I’m not sure what they protect, but I think I recall seeing a couple of small fuses inside my Quattro. If there are any, removing and testing them is probably worthwhile.

I saw a couple of things on the right side that might have been fuses, but would have needed neesle-nosed pliers to try extracting in the very cramped un der-deck location, and a not-so-supple 83 yr.-old bod!

I did disconnect the 48V at the lithium batt. with Victron switch off, waited a couple of minutes and re-connected. Turning the unit switch back on, all four LED lights lit up and stayed lit for both the charger and inverter - no flashing. This finding is not covered in the manual's extensive list of error codes. And still no function from charger or inverter - no 120AC with either dock mains plugged or un-plugged. Time to give Victron a call...

Pete

 

[martyc]

I saw a couple of things on the right side that might have been fuses, but would have needed neesle-nosed pliers to try extracting in the very cramped un der-deck location, and a not-so-supple 83 yr.-old bod!

I did disconnect the 48V at the lithium batt. with Victron switch off, waited a couple of minutes and re-connected. Turning the unit switch back on, all four LED lights lit up and stayed lit for both the charger and inverter - no flashing. This finding is not covered in the manual's extensive list of error codes. And still no function from charger or inverter - no 120AC with either dock mains plugged or un-plugged. Time to give Victron a call...

Pete

Pete,
Dumb question. It's not this is it? It may have tripped and not be visible? At least it's easier to get to than the bilge.

 

[ScottC]

That’s the Ground Fault Interruptor. The associated breaker switch just to the left of it should be ”on”, normally. Is it off in your case? If it’s off/tripped, that would certainly result in a lot of things not working!

 

[sunchaser]

I can only but guess as to this problem and solution.

This failure brings to mind the “back pocket” need to bypass problematic inverter chargers so that shore power, gensets, solar and on engine alternators can still function and keep things going. As inverter and battery systems have gotten more complicated, on board in place work arounds are increasingly relevant.

Our inverter bypass switch got us through several interesting issues whether inverter failure or overly sensitive dock GFIC devices. In this OP particular case, a ten year old inverter charger is indeed that - old. Age is not a friend.

 

[PeterB40]

The Solution

Thanks, folks, for your many suggestions, unfortunately none of which worked, and with a new (outdated) Victron costing $2200 or more, and no one local to diagnose/repair it nearer than San Fran. Bay, I found a Renogy 48V/3500W (7000W instantaneus)/70A/120VAC inverter/ charger designed for heavy-duty off-the-grid applications with large solar arrays and big 48V battery packs. It's very much lighter @ 26lbs with current technology, selectable battery type, and adjustable parameters. For less than $600 inc. tax!

This morning I hooked it up with the 48Vdc in, and 120VAC in/out leads I had removed from the Victron, set the L-ion charging parameters with the same 54.4V float point, and turned her on - works a charm with AC unplugged from dock! The only remaining problem is finding a gorilla to lift the 66# Victron off its mounting plate at the top so I can mount the Renogy in its place!

Pete

 

[PeterB40]

Thanks, folks, for your many suggestions, unfortunately none of which worked, and with a new (outdated) Victron costing $2200 or more, and no one local to diagnose/repair it nearer than San Fran. Bay, I found a Renogy 48V/3500W (7000W instantaneus)/70A/120VAC inverter/ charger designed for heavy-duty off-the-grid applications with large solar arrays and big 48V battery packs, as well as a genrator input if you wish. It's very much lighter @ 26lbs with current technology, selectable battery type, and adjustable parameters. For less than $600 inc. tax!

This morning I hooked it up with the 48Vdc in, and 120VAC in/out leads I had removed from the Victron, set the L-ion charging parameters with the same 54.4V float point, and turned her on - works a charm as a 120V pass-through from dock or un-plugged on 48V battery. The only remaining problem is finding a gorilla to lift the 66# Victron off its mounting plate at the top so I can mount the Renogy in its place!

Pete

A month or so ago with the help of my 6'4" strong, lithe 20 y.o. grandson, a 12"x1" ~ 4' fence plank and a 4' 2x4" for a lever, we just managed to lift the Victron high enough to clear its mounting lip-plate - no screws. The main problem was the tight, large wiring bundle between the Victron's top and the overhead which obviously went in after the unit installed.

Mounted the "little" Renogy easily, and it continues to work flawlessly with galley loads as large as 60A/3000W for 5 min or so.

Pete

 

[mvweebles]

Like all inexpensive inverters on the market these days, the Renogy is a high frequency inverter vs the Victron being a low frequency (heavy, large, and expensive). A low frequency inverter will better handle larger, hi-torque inductive loads such as pumps and compressors, especially when operated at the margin of their capacity. In a recent video, Will Prowse who does LFP battery tear downs, tested Li-Time LFP batteries to see if it would power his car lift with Tesla Model X. His massively sized High Frequency inverter would not budge the lift whereas a somewhat smaller Victron low frequency inverter lifted the car with relative ease.

Brief description of difference between high and low frequency inverters.

https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/k...rsion-methods-explained-high-frequency-vs-low

Peter

 

[PeterB40]

Like all inexpensive inverters on the market these days, the Renogy is a high frequency inverter vs the Victron being a low frequency (heavy, large, and expensive). A low frequency inverter will better handle larger, hi-torque inductive loads such as pumps and compressors, especially when operated at the margin of their capacity. In a recent video, Will Prowse who does LFP battery tear downs, tested Li-Time LFP batteries to see if it would power his car lift with Tesla Model X. His massively sized High Frequency inverter would not budge the lift whereas a somewhat smaller Victron low frequency inverter lifted the car with relative ease.

Brief description of difference between high and low frequency inverters.

https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/k...rsion-methods-explained-high-frequency-vs-low

Peter

All I can say is that it's handled every resistive load I've got on the boat without complaint, including a kettle boiler, microwave, one electric stovetop burner on high, and the Euro home-sized reefer/freezer all together. My 16,000BTU AC/heat unit startup is no problem.

Not into levitating Teslas, though! And @ $600 I can carry a spare on cruises - and replace it myself...

Pete

 

[PeterB40]

It just struck me around 5AM this morning that I could have restored 120V dockside power to the boat way back in Sept. when the 48V Victron inverter/charger failed, by simply disconnecting the dead 120V "Out" wires to its 120V "In" terminals, totally bypassing the deceased auto-switching circuit.

This circuit fed the all-electric galley, outlets, and the DC charger for the four AGM batts. Of course not operative when unplugged, but never out more than several hours. And no 48V charging for the 11.7kWh lithium batt. except when diesel running - then up to 100A with the inline 48V 7/5 kW motor-gen - but mimimal draw when on dock power.

 

[twistedtree]

It just struck me around 5AM this morning that I could have restored 120V dockside power to the boat way back in Sept. when the 48V Victron inverter/charger failed, by simply disconnecting the dead 120V "Out" wires to its 120V "In" terminals, totally bypassing the deceased auto-switching circuit.

This circuit fed the all-electric galley, outlets, and the DC charger for the four AGM batts. Of course not operative when unplugged, but never out more than several hours. And no 48V charging for the 11.7kWh lithium batt. except when diesel running - then up to 100A with the inline 48V 7/5 kW motor-gen - but mimimal draw when on dock power.

I think installing a bypass switch is wise as part of any inverter installation. Then recovery from a failure is just a matter of throwing the switch and continuing on with a generator or shore power.

 

[ksanders]

I think installing a bypass switch is wise as part of any inverter installation. Then recovery from a failure is just a matter of throwing the switch and continuing on with a generator or shore power.

I agree with you 100%

I've seen so many people comment that oh if my inverter fails all I will do is wire around it.

The problem is your inverter is not going to fail on a good day. it's going to fail when you are in a nasty sea way and you're just trying to drive your boat and everything on the boat stops working that is electric because almost all runs through your inverter.

But if you can bypass it with a simple switch, or in my case, a set of interlock breakers, you turn on your generator, bypass your inverter, and you worry about it another time.

 

[PeterB40]

I agree with you 100%

I've seen so many people comment that oh if my inverter fails all I will do is wire around it.

The problem is your inverter is not going to fail on a good day. it's going to fail when you are in a nasty sea way and you're just trying to drive your boat and everything on the boat stops working that is electric because almost all runs through your inverter.

But if you can bypass it with a simple switch, or in my case, a set of interlock breakers, you turn on your generator, bypass your inverter, and you worry about it another time.

So true, particularly with a very elderly bod! And we're planning another early Spring cruise down to the Channel Is. - about a 750nm round trip from Monterey, docking only at Santa Barbara for a day or so to re-fuel both ways.

Since the in-line 7/5kW motor/gen is only 48VDC, I need a solution when underway/at anchor if the 48V/120V inverter/charger fails. A 48V pure inverter would fill the bill, and I've found a 3000W cont./6000 transient one that seems it would work, wired to output to the "120V Out" terminal of the dead unit: WZRELB 3000W 48V. Seems I could fit it on a shelf above the 11.7 kWh lithium batt, but would have to measure:

 

[luna]

I agree with you 100%

I've seen so many people comment that oh if my inverter fails all I will do is wire around it.

The problem is your inverter is not going to fail on a good day. it's going to fail when you are in a nasty sea way and you're just trying to drive your boat and everything on the boat stops working that is electric because almost all runs through your inverter.

But if you can bypass it with a simple switch, or in my case, a set of interlock breakers, you turn on your generator, bypass your inverter, and you worry about it another time.

Although bypassing the inverter(s) using a simple switch of some sort sounds easy, it's not really simple (space wise) nor inexpensive when you have 3 inverters on board, all powering different things. For me, a simple rewire job using pre-made, purpose built jumpers mounted in the electrical distribution cabinet fit the bill in the unlikely event that I lose one inverter. So far, in 17 years it has happened once, early on and by way of, you guessed it, user error.

Besides the fact that I don't like running a genset underway, as I can't hear it, there is really nothing ac powered that is necessary for the safe operation of the boat. Yes I would perhaps lose the fridge, stove or water heater etc. but I'm not too concerned about a 12 to 24 hr. loss of those kind of things as they don't pose a navigational issue, despite the sea state.

Once tucked away someplace and at rest, I can deal with the rewiring in a matter of minutes.
I would need to do the rewiring anyway as the remaining inverters, with some power management, will get us by until I can procure a repair or replacement. That could take weeks.

Is your boat set up that ac is required to safely make way? To me that would seem odd, unless you are over about 70'.

 

[ksanders]

Although bypassing the inverter(s) using a simple switch of some sort sounds easy, it's not really simple (space wise) nor inexpensive when you have 3 inverters on board, all powering different things. For me, a simple rewire job using pre-made, purpose built jumpers mounted in the electrical distribution cabinet fit the bill in the unlikely event that I lose one inverter. So far, in 17 years it has happened once, early on and by way of, you guessed it, user error.

Besides the fact that I don't like running a genset underway, as I can't hear it, there is really nothing ac powered that is necessary for the safe operation of the boat. Yes I would perhaps lose the fridge, stove or water heater etc. but I'm not too concerned about a 12 to 24 hr. loss of those kind of things as they don't pose a navigational issue, despite the sea state.

Once tucked away someplace and at rest, I can deal with the rewiring in a matter of minutes.
I would need to do the rewiring anyway as the remaining inverters, with some power management, will get us by until I can procure a repair or replacement. That could take weeks.

Is your boat set up that ac is required to safely make way? To me that would seem odd, unless you are over about 70'.

hmmm

My inverter runs the starlink for example, which provides my weather, and even off shore communications.

It also keeps my ipad charged, which is what I do route planning on.

Amongst other things it also powers my alarm and monitoring system which connects all the smoke/fire alarms together, along with high bilge water and sirens.

Life Safety Critical??? Of Course not. Important, yes!

It's impossible to comment as to why you have three separate inverter systems, except to say there must be a reason.