110v Windlass

[Daddyo]

Does anyone know of a source for a 110v windless? I want to add a windless to my boat and to avoid the huge wires and additional batteries I would prefer to run an AC unit. I don't really know why this option isn't more common, am I missing something?

 

[FF]

RE: 110v windless

I have always liked the Ideal line of deck gear.

A 120V windlass is an excellent idea 1/10 the wiring size and with a (rather expensive ) AC motor great starting torque. Plus 120V electric motor will be to a standard size , so repair or repacement is rather easy.

One requirement to properly operate a 120 unit would be a Sine Wave inverter (or an operating noisemaker).

The far more powerfull output of a sine wave inverter will operate any heavy motor (air cond) or even minor motor (reefer) more efficiently.

www.idealwindlass.com/

If its a new instalation , you might find a vertical drum unit more versatile than the horizantal.

Warping into a dock , or using a stiff leg to bring heavy toys aboard , instead of just picking anchors off the bottom.

FF

 

[Rollsdoc]

RE: 110v windless

Be*careful*what you buy. Some windlasses were 120 DC. Still see one once in awhile. You can still run them using a rectifier.*Rodger

 

[Marin]

RE: 110v windless

Daddyo wrote:

I don't really know why this option isn't more common, am I missing something?

My guess is that many of the inverters installed on recreational boats can't handle this kind of load, and a lot of boats, particularly sailboats, don't have stand-alone generators.* Since common practice has the engine(s) running when the windlass is being use to deploy or retrieve the anchor, the size of the battery bank is not all that critical.

Our boat has its stock electrical system which, by today's standards, is considerably under-batteried and has the original 45-amp or so Motorola alternators.* Not a problem when we're using our approx 100-amp*Lofrans Tigres windless because the engines are always running.*

But our boat is also fitted with a large, 120vac, 3/4 hp*salt water washdown pump.* This thing is very powerful and will knock the mud out of dump truck, but to use it as we're raising the anchor we need to start the generator and run the pump off that.* While our inverter will power the pump, we don't want to power the pump and the windlass off the DC system at the same time.

*

 

[Codger2]

RE: 110v windless

Marin wrote:

"My guess is that many of the inverters installed on recreational boats can't handle this kind of load, and a lot of boats, particularly sailboats, don't have stand-alone generators.* Since common practice has the engine(s) running when the windlass is being use to deploy or retrieve the anchor, the size of the battery bank is not all that critical."

I couldn't agree more! Don't re-invent the wheel!

 

[RickB]

RE: 110v windless

FF wrote on "the other" trawler site:

"If you are going cruising , it might be worth the effort of the "best". Hydraulic. Every electric system will on overload eventually either stop working while you wait for a CB to cool or replace a fuse."

Ya gotta love it, a few hours later this shows up here:*

"A 120V windlass is an excellent idea 1/10 the wiring size and with a (rather expensive ) AC motor great starting torque. Plus 120V electric motor will be to a standard size , so repair or repacement is rather easy."


So how is the cruising on Bizzaro World these days?

 

[sunchaser]

RE: 110v windless

Rickb - You misunderstood FF I'm sure. He meant to say a 110V motor*driving a hydraulic pump which then powers the windlass. But on a more serious vein, I've run 12V or 24V windlasses for 30 years without a hitch. Plus you can get parts for them quite easily.

 

[Marin]

RE: 110v windless

A hydraulic windlass would be great on a boat that had a hydraulic system already in place. Commercial fishboats are the best example of this. You only have to run a couple of hydraulic lines forward to the windlass (which may or may not be easy), your electrical system never sees the windlass load, you have a very powerful windlass that hopefully won't pull itself out of your deck, and so on.

But I would think that the effort to install a hydraulic system on a recreational boat like ours, with a pair of Ford Lehman 120s that are not at all set up to run a hydraulic pump, the complexity of developing a practical mounting and drive system for the pump, running the hoses (which will require the same amount of cutting, and drilling and fitting and attaching as running a heavy pair of DC lines) to say nothing of the cost of the components, will more than offset the requirements for going with a "conventional" DC-powered windlass.

I'm the first person to say I don't know much about electricicals, particularly AC electricicals (how can power do any work when it's reversing directions 60 times a second?), but other than the wire-run size, I'm not sure I understand the advantage of using an AC-driven windlass on a boat unless that boat has a constant. reliable source of AC power, like an AC generator that runs all the time or is turned by the main propulsion engines. But on relatively small boats like ours, most of which are equipped with a reasonably decent DC system, why add another whole power generation requirement just to save some cable weight?

I already mentioned our salt water washdown pump which requires the generator to be started whenever we want to use it. It came with the boat and it's real powerful so we we continue to use it. But were we installing a washdown system on a boat like ours that didn't have already have one, I would go with a DC pump rather than the hassle of having to come up with AC for the thing.

 

[FF]

RE: 110v windless

Reply Quote

FF wrote on "the other" trawler site:

"If you are going cruising , it might be worth the effort of the "best". Hydraulic. Every electric system will on overload eventually either stop working while you wait for a CB to cool or replace a fuse."

Ya gotta love it, a few hours later this shows up here:

"A 120V windlass is an excellent idea 1/10 the wiring size and with a (rather expensive ) AC motor great starting torque. Plus 120V electric motor will be to a standard size , so repair or repacement is rather easy."


So how is the cruising on Bizzaro World these days?


As usual your attack has it backwards,

THe first response was here and yes Ideal makes 120V units and they (with the right power supply work very well.).

The duplicate post on the PM board got the opinion that Hyd is "best" although for most boaters its a bit expensive .


"say a 110V motor driving a hydraulic pump which then powers the windlass."

Actually DC hyd packages are aviliable used from transit coaches that could power a windlass.

The unit would be as powerful, perhaps a bit slower on light load retrival. The advantage would be low cost , no pressurized hyd tank and the fine overload (it just stops) with no delay on resuming operation would still be kept.

Go back to logging clock time Rick, its what you excel at.

 

[RickB]

RE: 110v windless

Speaking of clocks, which way do the clocks turn*on Bizzaro World ?

 

[Daddyo]

RE: 110v windless

Marin,

I added this to my post on PM site, hope this explains.

Just weighing my options. Don't want another battery bank. Don't want hassle expense of huge wires forward. But it is looking like cost is driving this thing toward a standard 12v 900w horizontal unit. I was trying to think outside the boat unit box but it isn't looking possible. Another concern is I didn't want to start each cruising morning by running down the batteries feeding the windless. I have a small alternator, small wind gen and a small charger feeding a large house bank, if I kept the windless 110v then I would fire up the genny and avoid the battery drain. Some day I will get a larger alt and charger but not now. I need the windless as I pull the anchor manually now with the Admiral operating the throttle, but this won't be possible this winter when I will be solo much more often.

My "normal" anchoring situation is 10' water 6' bow height 60' chain and 15' of line with a 35# CQR buried in soft mud, if anyone can come up with some numbers on that it would be much appreciated.

 

[Marin]

110v windless

Unless you are in the habit of weighing your anchor before you start your engines, I shouldn't think operating your windlass would drain your batteries since the engine(s) would be running and your alternator(s) would be charging the batteries as you use them. We start our engines prior to weighing the anchor, and long before we reach wherever it is we're going that day the batteries have been brought back to full charge.

Our boat's battery system is the stock setup and consists of only two batteries, both 8Ds. There is also a separate 4D for the generator. Despite being very under-batteried by today's standards, we have never had a problem with the current draw of our windlass. I'm sure we would if we operated the windlass with the engines shut off, but we don't do that.

Like most power boaters in the PNW we use an all-chain rode (3/8") and a typical anchoring depth is 30 to 50 feet. We use a 44# anchor (we used to have a 33# but we demoted that anchor to a garage doorstop three years ago.) We carry 200 feet of chain (should be 250 feet but we didn't know enough at the time we bought it). We also carry a 200' nylon/chain rode in a big milk crate on the aft deck for the stern anchor. Since the stern anchor (Fortress) and its rode are both sized to act as the main anchor and rode for the boat, we can carry the stern rode forward and shackle it to the 200 feet of primary chain in the event we need more rode on the main anchor.

When the big but very slow no-name windlass that came with our boat broke several years ago we replaced it with a Lofrans Tigres, which has an excellent reputation and is the windlass of choice installed by manufacturers like Grand Banks and Nordic Tug on their boats in the 30 to*42 foot range. We've been extremely pleased with the Tigres, which is very fast compared to what we were used to. But there are other windlass manufacturers out there with equally good reputations, Ideal being one of them.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 7th of October 2009 03:33:58 PM

 

[koliver]

RE: 110v windless

Specs on the Tigres (1200 watt) are: retreival speed 65 ft/min, draw 125 amps at working load. To raise your 60 ft of chain and 15 ft of line you will run it for 69seconds at working load, so will draw 125amps for 69 seconds. That is 2.39 amp hrs. Your stock alternators are capable of at least 35 amps, more likely 50, so will put that back in 3 or 4 minutes. that doesn't take into account the reduction in the load as your chain gets spooled in, leaving a progressively lighter load as it comes up. The real draw on your batteries is much less than the above calculated hypothetical. A 1000 watt windlass will be proportionately easier on your batteries.
Time for you to relax.

 

[Daddyo]

RE: 110v windless

Thanks Koliver,

Hey why paint the fence when you can get someone else to do it for you

.* But really the numbers are a bit surprizing. I guess I'll just get by with my 912AH house bank.

 

[Marin]

RE: 110v windless

You shouldn't have any problems.* We've gotten along just fine for the last eleven years with a 200*amp hour*house "bank."

 

[ARoss]

RE: 110v windless

Previous owner(s) on my M/T 34* installed a separate battery forward, wired to power both the bow thruster and windlass.* Keeps wire runs short, and there isn't any need to run* both at the same time.***.... other than adding to the already nose-heavy attitude of the boat....it seems to*work OK.

 

[jeffreyboerner]

87 Grands Banks 32
My windless stopped winding. The motor turned on but failed to wind the chain in under load. I had to pull the anchor by hand and then turn the windless on to wind the loose chain. Any suggestions as to what could be wrong. Its a horizontal windless - I don't know the make.

 

[Lepke]

I have a 240vAC windlass that usually runs on my inverter. One of the reasons I bought an inverter was to not run a generator as often. When my mains are running, alternators keep the battery bank up. I have AC available 24/7.

My windlass is a RC Plath #4 and originally came with a 12v motor. PO found a AC motor that would fit. That could probably be done with many windlasses. When I bought the boat there were 3 burned out 12v motors somebody saved. The Plath #4 also comes with a hydraulic motor.

 

[FF]

Hydraulic would be first choice on any new build as the windlass, bow thruster cruise generator , and dink crane could all be powered and none would burnout from an overload.

Adding small hydraulics is not that expensive , a power steering pump can be run off one belt , so only a hyd tank would need space .

Our Navy Launch was used as a lobster boat so had hyd steering , as well as a hyd lobster drum lift.

One delight was adding an autopilot ,the AP only had to trigger 2 valves (under an amp each) and by laying the hyd hose in the bilge , and raising the bilge pump no hyd cooling needed to be purchased and added to operate a bow windlass.

Industry uses 120 or 240V motors that are very well sealed , so a change from a DC motor might not be too hard, with the right industrial supplier.

IF an industrial "universal" old style AC/ DC could be found it would probably work the better for an electric windlass as the old motors with brushes handle low voltage or poor power waveform just fine.

A common AC motor will attempt to pull more amps with lower voltage,

Feed the universal 120V motor 90V , and it works fine as a less powerful 90V motor, but not attempt to pull more amps operating. And will not burn out .

"Bestitis" is the mental illness we all face in choosing to outfit our boats.

Then of course there is paying for the decision.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have a 240vAC windlass that usually runs on my inverter. One of the reasons I bought an inverter was to not run a generator as often. When my mains are running, alternators keep the battery bank up. I have AC available 24/7.

My windlass is a RC Plath #4 and originally came with a 12v motor. PO found a AC motor that would fit. That could probably be done with many windlasses. When I bought the boat there were 3 burned out 12v motors somebody saved. The Plath #4 also comes with a hydraulic motor.

Last I checked Plath still existed in Sandy Oregon. Plath made some of the finest windlasses many of them available in 12v or 110v.

I used a 110v Plath on my uniflite. Ran it off a 2500 watt inverter. I understand why windlasses went 12 volt in the 70’s. With the new inverters available since 2000, I am surprised that we haven’t see a bigger return to 110v windlasses.

As Lepke alluded to, 110v motors will live longer than 12v motors.

 

[rwidman]

Marin,

I added this to my post on PM site, hope this explains.

Just weighing my options. Don't want another battery bank. Don't want hassle expense of huge wires forward. But it is looking like cost is driving this thing toward a standard 12v 900w horizontal unit. I was trying to think outside the boat unit box but it isn't looking possible. Another concern is I didn't want to start each cruising morning by running down the batteries feeding the windless. I have a small alternator, small wind gen and a small charger feeding a large house bank, if I kept the windless 110v then I would fire up the genny and avoid the battery drain. Some day I will get a larger alt and charger but not now. I need the windless as I pull the anchor manually now with the Admiral operating the throttle, but this won't be possible this winter when I will be solo much more often.

My "normal" anchoring situation is 10' water 6' bow height 60' chain and 15' of line with a 35# CQR buried in soft mud, if anyone can come up with some numbers on that it would be much appreciated.

You seem to be making this far more complicated than it needs to be. Production boats are fitted with 12 volt windlasses from thee factory. If 120 volt AC windlasses were a better choice, this is what the manufacturers would use.

A typical windlass draws less than 60 amps and typically for just a couple minutes. This won't seriously deplete your battery. The proper size cables will be a minor expense compared to the cost of the windlass.

Many people suggest powering the windlass from the starting battery, not the house battery. The logic is that the engine is already running and the alternator is charging the battery as it is being used.

A 120 volt AC windlass would require a hefty inverter or a working genset. If the genset doesn't start, you would have to raise the anchor manually.

 

[rwidman]

Previous owner(s) on my M/T 34* installed a separate battery forward, wired to power both the bow thruster and windlass.* Keeps wire runs short, and there isn't any need to run* both at the same time.***.... other than adding to the already nose-heavy attitude of the boat....it seems to*work OK.

The danger here is that any fault in the electrical system could result in the full current capacity of either battery flowing through the cables connecting the remote battery and the other batteries.

This would have to be very carefully engineered to avoid a potential fire starting situation.

 

[diver dave]

……electricicals (how can power do any work when it's reversing directions 60 times a second?), ….

Good one[emoji106]

But, you know the DC motors have commutation which forces them to act more like ac motors! Gotta have a dynamic, rotating magnetic field.

This might be a good time to bring up 3 phase ac, but i wont.

 

[FF]

Back in the day 1950-1960 some budget folks used 120V DC ,they just put 10 12V batts in series.

This worked less expensive bulbs , and many house hold items like vacuums and blenders were AC-DC.

With the new style batt sets recycled from pax cars , house hold voltage might make a comeback? Would be loads safer with GFI outlets.

 

[diver dave]

Most modern power supplies will work with 120vdc. What is more difficult is financing the higher dc voltage circuit breakers.