“Small loop”

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Ronk135

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
17
Location
East Falmouth, MA
Vessel Name
Paumanok
Vessel Make
Fast Trawler
As a first timer posting, I refer to the “small loop” as Hudson R, Erie Canal, Oswego, Lake Ontario, St Lawrence, Richelieu R, Lake Champlain back to Hudson R. Can anyone tell me how to find information about the pros/cons of this loop. Planning now for the trip starting from Cape Cod this spring or summer. Hoping this is a good trip idea. Any advice would be great help.
 
Sometimes referred to as the triangle loop, I have some friends that did that trip a few years ago. Their only complaint was that they wished they had allocated more time for the trip. They started/ended on Lake Champlain and did it in four weeks, they said six weeks would have been better so that they could have spent more time exploring the Canadian side.
 
Thanks for the quick response. I”m not too far off thinking 7-8 weeks from the Cape and stopping in NYC. We do want to explore along the way. Any advice re: stopping in Canada? I will need an FCC VHF license? Is safety of any concern?
 
Thanks for the quick response. I”m not too far off thinking 7-8 weeks from the Cape and stopping in NYC. We do want to explore along the way. Any advice re: stopping in Canada? I will need an FCC VHF license? Is safety of any concern?
what do you mean by "Safety"? pretty friendly up here,
 
Concerns are related to NYC and/or Canadian marinas. If we leave the boat for a day. I know all marinas have security but we can’t lock the wheelhouse. Even the cabins have very small (easy to break) locks. Might not be an issue but something that needs asking. Don’t want to be surprised. The question is really if others had anything stolen doing their trip.
 
I've done the NYC to Lake Ontario portion of that trip a couple of times, most recently a round trip from Lake Ontario down to NYC / Western Long Island Sound this past summer. I agree with Cartouche, nowhere on that route would really concern me security wise. The only times I've worried a little have been a few spots along the Erie Canal where we were the only boat docked somewhere with plenty of local foot traffic and a less than perfect vibe. But even then we've never had an issue (and the cameras have never picked up anyone nosing around the boat either).

As far as VHF licensing, you're supposed to have the FCC ship's station license and a restricted radio operator's permit to use your VHF outside of the US, although it's not necessarily enforced. It's easy enough to get the licenses though (and the RROP is good for life once you have it).

A few stops I'd recommend as cruiser friendly are Port Washington on Long Island, it's the last good stop East of NYC and very cruiser friendly (several marinas, inexpensive moorings with launch service, plenty of space to anchor, and 2 town docks to land a dinghy at). If you want to stay in / near NYC, see if you can get a slip at Hudson Point Marina. They're small, but right across from Liberty Landing in Jersey City and half the price. Docks are gated and it seemed like a good community, plus there are some good restaurants within walking distance and it's easy enough to get across to Manhattan. If you stop there, say hi to Tom on Addiction.

As you head up the Hudson, both Marlboro and Albany yacht clubs are good stops. If you have a reason to stop near Poughkeepsie, consider anchoring and dinghying ashore at the town park rather than staying at the marina there (Shadows). I was no fan of the dockmaster at that marina, plus you'll potentially be docking in as much as 2 kts of current while surrounded by people coming in just for dinner.

Once you get into the Erie Canal, walls at most of the locks are viable stopping points if that's where your timing puts you. Otherwise there are a few good options at the beginning of the canal. Waterford is always a good stop, Crescent has both the town wall and a boat club that accepts transients. Schenectady Yacht Club is very welcoming and a great stop. The town docks in Scotia are great as well. After that the next popular stop is Amsterdam although I've never stopped there personally.

Things get a little sparse after that until you cross Oneida Lake. There's not much there, but the wall at the mouth of the creek in Canajoharie is usable and Little Falls is a decent stop, although I don't understand the hype around it. I'd avoid Sylvan Beach (there were a few security issues there this past summer plus it's a party town and usually crowded) and if you need to stop before crossing Oneida Lake, go for either the east wall of Lock 21 or the west wall of Lock 22. We've stayed at both and they're quiet and isolated, but perfectly usable stops. The wall at 22 has good tie up options, 21 requires getting a bit creative.

Once you get across Oneida Lake the town docks in Brewerton are good, plus you have a few good marinas and boatyards there. Phoenix at the bottom of the Oswego Canal is always a good stop and the locals are very welcoming. There's not really anywhere else worth stopping until you get to Oswego at the top of the canal. We usually stay on the wall between locks 7 and 8 in Oswego, as it's more protected than just about anything in the lower harbor and as long as you're fine with no services, it's free.

For fuel stops, if you can get in/out of there near high tide and don't draft more than 4 feet, Coeymans Landing towards the upper part of the Hudson is usually a cheap fuel stop. Call them and ask for guidance on the channel going in, it's not necessarily obvious and the place is shallow. Next cheap fuel is in Brewerton, usually either Ess-Kay or Winter Harbor are the cheapest (and possibly the cheapest you'll see the whole trip). Oswego is usually reasonably priced as well, and I'm pretty sure there's a reasonably priced fuel supplier in Clayton (Thousand Islands). After that I'm not sure, and fuel is usually more expensive in Canada, so I'd plan to leave that area fully tanked to minimize what you have to buy before you find another cheap fuel stop.
 
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This is very informative and helpful !! I will print your message for future reference. I do have all the “old” charts for this loop after helping a friend bring his Monk from Toronto thru a part of the Erie Canal years ago. Looking for newer ones. So, I am somewhat familiar with the Oswego and Erie Canals. Also, lived in Oswego for two years. When I was helping my friend, at one of the locks (Phoenix??) there was a group of children cleaning the area of trash and weeding and took breakfast orders. They ran to the nearby restaurant and brought us our food. They had a name for the group (canal gang?). Have you heard of them? What great group of kids and group leaders. Hoping they still exist.
 
When I was helping my friend, at one of the locks (Phoenix??) there was a group of children cleaning the area of trash and weeding and took breakfast orders. They ran to the nearby restaurant and brought us our food. They had a name for the group (canal gang?). Have you heard of them? What great group of kids and group leaders. Hoping they still exist.
Yup, that group in Phoenix is still going. It's called the Bridge House Brats.
 
We did the "downeast loop" circa 2012 which is an extension of the loop you describe. Once in Montreal, rather than going down through Champlain and the Hudson back to NYC, we continued out the St Lawrence to the gulf, PEI, New Brunswick, and down the coast of Nova Scotia & Maine. Start and finish was Gloucester MA where we lived at the time. Great trip, and led to much, much more cruising.

I'd check out blogs. Early in www.MVTanglewood.com we covered that trip, and I read many other blogs before making the trip ourselves. The AGLC (I think that's the right name) is dedicated to the various loops. Skipper Bob guide books are good, but will be dated in their info, and I think have been out of print for a long time. The NYS Canal Corp has a lot of excellent info on the NY canals. In Canada, their "Sailing Directions" are the equivalent of the US Coast Pilot books.

We never had any concern at all about security or safety.
 
We did the Down East loop too. Never felt unsafe anywhere, although admittedly we didn't stay in NYC proper.
 
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This is a well traveled route. Most people take the Rideau Canal through Ottawa to travel between Lake Ontario and Montreal if they are under 5 ft draft.

Many of the overnight stops on the canals are on public walls and docks with no formal security. The only place I can think of where theft or safety might be a concern is downtown Ottawa. I've traveled most of the route numerous times and have never had concerns over theft or safety.

The America's Great Loop Cruisers Association has lots of details on the route and is a great resource. You can do the loop in either direction.
 
I'll echo @Jeff F and say definitely consider adding the Rideau Canal into your loop (sub it for the St. Lawrence section if so). Really fantastic. It is best to have less than 5' draft (check that number in their guidelines if you are close to 5' or if it will be late in the season).

I had a few issues on the Erie Canal. Not anyone bothering the boat while I was gone (that said, I didn't leave it anywhere) but rather people being creepy while I was on the boat at night. Not the most pleasant. Still here though.

Canada was nothing but wonderful, in my experience.
 
Ditto on the Rideau. I misread "Richelieu" in the original post as "Rideau". I found the big St Lawrence lock to be unpleasant, and the Rideau bypasses all but two, as I recall. And the Rideau is fantastic of its own accord. Also considering going a little further out the St Lawrence to spend some time in Quebec City, then backtrack to Sorel to head down to Champlain. Just check the current and tides relative to your boat's capabilities since the backtrack is against the current.
 
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The Rideau Canal certainly sounds more interesting than the St Lawrence. I will definitely look into the Rideau (Kingston-Ottawa-Montreal) given our 3.5’ draft and check the American Great Loop Ass blogs. When the shrinkwrap comes off I will measure the exact height to the top of the Atlantic Arch to be sure I am below 16’. If we can depart early June, hopefully, the mosquitos will be gone and we can get back before hurricane season. Thanks for the terrific insights and advice. If there are any other thoughts please post them.
 
The Thousand Islands area is nice, but missed if you take the Rideau. Our solution to that was to spend a few days exploring that area, then backtracking to Kingston.
 
Height wise, you should be fine up to 21 feet. Excluding issues with getting into Kingston due to the bridge situation there, the Rideau Canal is listed as good for 22 feet. Eastern Erie and Oswego canals are good up to 21 feet, and the Chambly Canal route is good for 29 feet. So as long as you can get your tallest fixed obstruction that can't be easily lowered down to 20 feet or so you'll have plenty of clearance.
 
I think the main issue is the Champlain Canal as listed in the NYS Canal Guide:

“The Champlain Canal's primary bridge clearance is around
15.5 to 17 feet, but it varies by location, particularly near locks where water levels can be lowered; some fixed bridges are lower (e.g., US 11 at 13 ft), requiring boaters to check specific bridge data, reduce air draft (mast height), and contact lock operators for adjustable clearances to pass safely.”

What I have read is 16’ boat height makes the loop possible but this is the one stretch that gives me the biggest question. The lock(s) can be lowered on the Champlain but might still mean I have to be at or under 16’? Any experience with the Champlain Canal ?
 
I think the main issue is the Champlain Canal as listed in the NYS Canal Guide:

“The Champlain Canal's primary bridge clearance is around
15.5 to 17 feet, but it varies by location, particularly near locks where water levels can be lowered; some fixed bridges are lower (e.g., US 11 at 13 ft), requiring boaters to check specific bridge data, reduce air draft (mast height), and contact lock operators for adjustable clearances to pass safely.”

What I have read is 16’ boat height makes the loop possible but this is the one stretch that gives me the biggest question. The lock(s) can be lowered on the Champlain but might still mean I have to be at or under 16’? Any experience with the Champlain Canal ?
Good catch, I completely forgot about the Champlain Canal part of the loop. For the low bridge there, they normally maintain the pool level to give 15'6" of clearance, but the water level can be lowered on request to give 17' of clearance. So you'll need to be not much over 16' tall to fit, and if you can get under 15' it'll make things easier.
 
I agree with most of what has been said above and any info I could add is over 25 years old. But sometimes pictures can tell a thousand words so here is my old website with pictures of most of the trip. Click on the thumbnails to get the big picture. You're in for a great time!

welcome2
 
Thanks for sharing your pictures and trip notes. It all looks and sounds exciting. Our trip will link up with relatives/friends along the way in CT, NY, Oswego, Ottawa, Burlington. Especially, hope to visit the house we rented 50+ years ago in Oswego where Marcy and I worked for two years (Freshwater Biologists). Now just have to stay healthy. Two old people on an old boat going on an adventure.
 
The Rideau Canal certainly sounds more interesting than the St Lawrence. I will definitely look into the Rideau (Kingston-Ottawa-Montreal) given our 3.5’ draft and check the American Great Loop Ass blogs. When the shrinkwrap comes off I will measure the exact height to the top of the Atlantic Arch to be sure I am below 16’. If we can depart early June, hopefully, the mosquitos will be gone and we can get back before hurricane season. Thanks for the terrific insights and advice. If there are any other thoughts please post them.
Remember to check the Federal government for the removal schedule for 2026 of the fixed Bailey bridge at the LaSalle causeway in Kingston, the fixed portion in June (especially with all the snow we are getting this year) is only guaranteed at 13'6" Express Cruisers can get underneath up to 50 ft, In June. there is a lot of talk to not open as often as last year (every Sunday) as it caused a huge disruption for the downtown in Kingston, and financial Costs to the merchants the rest of the way up it is swing or lift bridges, accept coming out of Newboro, and Rideau Ferry, where the fixed bridge is 20ft.
 
Just north of Lock 3 on the Champlain canal is the 15'6" bridge. You can contact lock 3 to request them to lower the pool level ahead of time.
Generally 17' air draft is the max for the Champlain canal. I actually shortened my mast to 16.5' to not have to worry about it.
 
Remember to check the Federal government for the removal schedule for 2026 of the fixed Bailey bridge at the LaSalle causeway in Kingston, the fixed portion in June (especially with all the snow we are getting this year) is only guaranteed at 13'6"
Are you saying they are going to be removing the fixed portion on the eastern side? The one that is around 13'? I can fit through that one as-is but is even that now not going to be possible at certain times?
 
The bridge removal is for the temporary bridge that replaced the openable portion of the LaSalle Causeway bridge. So there are only periodic times where taller vessels can get through. The fixed bridge on the Eastern side is unchanged, and apparently this year they're adding clearance boards to the bridge and will also be putting info online about the current water level and resulting vertical clearance at any point in time. Currently they list that Eastern bridge as having 14 to 16 feet of clearance depending on water level.
 

info on the proposed bridge schedule and the online vertical clearance
 
Are you saying they are going to be removing the fixed portion on the eastern side? The one that is around 13'? I can fit through that one as-is but is even that now not going to be possible at certain times?
No the Bailey bridge that was put in to replace the Causeway. We used to dock in the inner Harbour and watched quite a few Flybridge trawlers THINK they could get under. we had a Mainship 390, and it would not fit at any time of the year., there is a small Searay 34 flybridge that will fit without his radar arch and canvas.
 

info on the proposed bridge schedule and the online vertical clearance
Yes this is the request for proposal that is being very hotly debated, by Kingston, the Rideau is for Pleasure only and the dry dock in the Inner Harbour can suffice on a monthly schedule. The Downtown in Kingston is Greatly affected by the boondoggle created by the Government engineers
 
Thanks for the discussion of the Causeway and Fixed Bridge portions of the LaSalle Causeway. This was confusing to me so I goggled and read Canada updates. I now understand the problem: A. the fixed portion of the bridge is open continually for boats less than 16' air height but this depends on weather and snow melt, and, B. the causeway section of the bridge for larger boats transiting was demolished a year ago and a Bailey Bridge temporarily put in place. For 2026, Canada reports the Bailey Bridge will be removed with a barge once per week on Sundays. It will be replaced the end of the day. So, if someone doesn't get to the bridge on Sunday you have to wait a week. Yikes, planning has to be accurate or less. Glad I heard about this and will watch for updates.
 
Ron,
I have cruised all of that loop and portions multi times. I have some cruising notes on my Bacchus website linked in signature that might help some.
My recommendations with the time you indicated you have would be to do it clockwise. I'd spend some time in the St Lawrence / 1,000 Is area (see notes) but would suggest returning to Kingston and adding the Rideau Canal leg. It's a very scenic, relaxing experience w opportunities for staying at lock walls, anchorages and some town / city marinas / docks. You can purchase season lock passes & mooring passes for staying at locks, at a discount prior to Mar 30th. Worth checking into as it also applies to the Richlieu section. Many of the Rideau locks / docs now have 30A power avail that is a small additional charge if interested.
From Ottawa the Ottowa Riv takes you back to the St Lawrence near Montreal. IMO the Rideau is much more enjoyable cruising that the St Lawrence. The Ottawa R is the only se tion I have not done and have done all of the Rideau and the lower half more than 10X.
We have tentative plans to do Erie, Champlain canals to Lk Champlain with a few other boats from our marina.

The only issue we have ever experienced was overnight in fowntown Ottawa local pranksters untied us during the night. No damage or issue ither than having to get up & retie during the night. I now make it a practice to run bow / stern lines from boat THROUGH the cleat and back to our boat. Not as easy to simply slip the line off a clear and it's much easier casting off as it can be done from the boat once power cords & other lines have been removed.

Re radio license... I have never bothered with both operator & station licenses that are needed when we are inland all the time. I have never had Canada question anything about radios / licenses. Canadian customs check in is fairly straight-forward. They will ask a few more questions the first time if you have never cruised there. Also, I have exceeded their alcohol import limits several timesby explaining we live aboard while cruising and have a stocked bar. I have an inventory but they dud not seem that interested as long as none were gifts for others or to be left in Canada. I did make it a point to try to limit our bar to open bottles to reinforce the fact that they were for our consumption. They referred to it as " ships stores" which does carry some requirements aboard commercial vessels.

Happy to answer any additional / specific questions or recommendations for stops. PM me and I'll give you our contact info for further discussion or contact underway.
 
Concerns are related to NYC and/or Canadian marinas. If we leave the boat for a day. I know all marinas have security but we can’t lock the wheelhouse. Even the cabins have very small (easy to break) locks. Might not be an issue but something that needs asking. Don’t want to be surprised. The question is really if others had anything stolen doing their trip.
Do you feel safe in a marina in the US?
 

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