Instruments upgrade - a few questions

[bowball]

Well, it's based on my *perception* that it might help me out when anchoring, from time to time. We're planning to cruise some of the waters of BC this summer, which means a lot of new anchorages for me. I'm hoping that the more information I have about the bottom before deciding where to drop the hook may be of benefit occasionally.

I've never had this feature or even seen it used, so time will tell whether this will be worth it or not.

That’s the same use case I was hoping for. My installer convinced me otherwise. Having said that, I’m still intrigued! .

 

[Iggy]

BCRyan I just did this. Twisted is correct, the new DRS NXT requires 12v and then you just plug the Ethernet cable into a dedicated off the shelf hub shared by the TZ PC. Same for the DFF. I got a 12v powered one off Amazon.

AIS will be over NMEA 2000 so something like an Actisense NGT-1 (or similar) will connect your TZ PC to the backbone via USB.

Licensing TZ is different between Navigator and Pro.

Navigator allows installation on two PCs but each will only support one monitor.l and requires add on licenses for radar and sonar ($500 each)

Pro is licensed for one PC but support two monitors and includes one of the add-on modules (radar I think).

For me I chose Navigator as I wanted complete redundancy. TZ sells a second computer license for Pro for a lot less than a second full copy.

I highly recommend the FURUNO sat compasses (I installed the SCX-20) as it greatly improved heading, COG and radar accuracy. Spendy but worth it. You don’t need a TZT or FI70 to program the SCX as FURUNO has a utility for this that runs on a PC and uses the Actisense to communicate with the compass for initial setup.

I build my own computers and using 3 monitors as one. As an example, I can drag word or even anything from one screen to another or use all 3 screens for the same program. This is more hardware and video driver dependent than program dependent. Yes?

My questions is, how does TZ know or work with only one monitor? I am thinking of buying TZ so maybe I will answer my own question?

 

[MYTraveler]

My questions is, how does TZ know or work with only one monitor? I am thinking of buying TZ so maybe I will answer my own question?

I run TZ Pro on a NUC with two screens. I can open windows on both screens concurrently. An extra license is not needed for this. One point though, TZ Pro (and perhaps other TZ flavors as well) will not allow anything less than a full screen window -- it is all or nothing, no opportunity for two half-sized windows sharing a screen. I have discussed this with the techs and TZ and apparently there is no particular reason for this, but no plan to change it either.

 

[Iggy]

Thanks! So its full screen or nothing which is not too bad. BUT I take it that you could in TZ display radar, chartplotter and sonar in the same window spanning 3 screens.

 

[MYTraveler]

Thanks! So its full screen or nothing which is not too bad. BUT I take it that you could in TZ display radar, chartplotter and sonar in the same window spanning 3 screens.

Maybe, but I can't see how. First, the window configurations are pre-defined -- choices like full window, 1/2, 1/2 side by side split screen, or half on top and two quarters below; there is no option for a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 side by side split. Second, the window is going to be 16:9, so if you stretch it across 3 screens but leave it original height, it will be highly distorted.

I bought an ultra wide screen expecting to show TZ PRO in one large window and a PC App in an adjacent window. That won't work, and my screen has no picture in picture capability, so running TZ PRO on that screen either wastes a lot of display space or, if I use it all, presents a very distorted (horizontally stretched) image. I am hoping to find some kind of combiner that will allow me to display TZ Pro and a PC app concurrently on the ultra wide.

 

[MYTraveler]

I take it that you could in TZ display radar, chartplotter and sonar in the same window spanning 3 screens.

In giving this more thought, I am not even confident that you can run three windows on three screens. When running two windows on two screens, each of those windows appears to be a separate instance of TZ PRO. I don't believe TZ PRO will let you run a third instance concurrently.

 

[Iggy]

You can run as many windows as you want or that you can use. On one, two, or three monitors. Please remember that I would be spanning 3 monitors. So the computer and software thinks its one big screen. But some programs as you pointed out, you can only cover so much desk top. As in writing this, I can go full screen but the monitors far left and right will just have the blue boarder. But if I went full screen with TZ and than a split screen within TZ, would that work? Well I will let you know.

 

[MYTraveler]

You can run as many windows as you want or that you can use. On one, two, or three monitors.

Wouldn't the ability to run 3 concurrent TZPro windows depend on the TZ Software? Is it possible that the software, by design, 1) runs a separate instance of TZ Pro for each window, and 2) limits the number of concurrent instances to 2? If both yes, then running 3 TZ windows, on 3 screens, respectively, would not be possible, would it? Or are you confident that either 1 or 2 is false? FWIW, I believe both are true.

 

[Iggy]

You are right as far as I know. But what I am trying to say... Why cant I run one TZ window and with in it run a split screen of radar, chartplotter or anything else. Also spanning 2 or 3 screens. But from left to right it would be distorted I think.

Your right, I was not thinking it though. I have never used TZ.

 

[MYTraveler]

You are right as far as I know. But what I am trying to say... Why cant I run one TZ window and with in it run a split screen of radar, chartplotter or anything else. Also spanning 2 or 3 screens. But from left to right it would be distorted I think.

Your right, I was not thinking it though. I have never used TZ.

You can certainly run one split screen window showing 2 or 3 or 4 different functions. Those windows are predefined by TZ, I believe, so you won't have a 3 way side-by-side split since that is not an option. But you could have one on the top half of the window and two side by side on the bottom half. The better way might be to have two windows, one on a screen of its own showing just one function, and the other in a separate side-by side window. That would be great if you can spread that second window across the remaining two screen.

What I am unsure about is whether you can stretch that window to cover more than one screen. I am skeptical since TZ won't let you resize a window -- it is all (full screen) or nothing.

Good luck. I, for one, will be interested to know how it works out. -Rick

 

[Airstream345]

There is a little known documented feature in TZ where you can adjust your Startup Parameters to do things like set the window size, position and mode. From the TZ User Guide:

Startup Mode

Some parameters can be added to the TimeZero shortcut path. To add a parameter, right click on the TimeZero shortcut (usually located on the Desktop) and select "Properties". Under the "Shortcut" tab, simply add a space after the quote and type the parameter at the very end of the target path (just after the "):

You can replace "/parameter" in the screenshot above by:

•/navigation = used to automatically start TimeZero in Navigation mode (bypass the agreement)

•/reset = used to reset all WorkSpaces that have a display configuration saved. If a Display Configuration was not saved (right click on WorkSpace tab), the WorkSpace will not be reset.

•/secondmonitor = used to shift the monitor used by TimeZero on the second screen.

•/windowtop:100 /windowleft:100 /windowwidth:800 /windowheight:600 = used to set the window size occupied by TimeZero. By default, TimeZero is always in full screen mode, but these parameters can be used to define in pixel the position an size of the space occupied by TimeZero on the screen. In this example, the top left corner of the window will be located at 100 pixel down (from the top of the screen) and 100 pixel right. The size of window will be 800 by 600.​

Ive tested this on Navigator and it works well however you cannot resize the window or even move it on the screen. Likely OK for dedicated navigation monitors but a bit akward on a laptop or multi use system. One trick is to setup copies of the shortcut and add parameters to each for a specific scenario:

TZ-FullSreen-NavMode

TZ-LeftTwoThirds

Other options for multiple applications alongside TZ on a single monitor are PIP features to setup one monitor as two. There are also Windows Utilities like PowerToys to setup predefined "spaces" on your monitor that you can snap apps into but I've barely experimented with that so far.

PIC: TZ running on one half and TF on the other below

 

[Airstream345]

One other nice thing about using startup parameters is that you can open applications and run them in front of TZ.

 

[BCRyan]

Thanks again for all the help on this so far.

Here's an updated diagram:

My current question is around the interface between the PC and the NMEA interfaces (brown boxes). I had been thinking of using the Actisense interface, as this is recommended by Nobletech, but then I've also read a lot of good things about the NEMO box from Rosepoint.

If I were going to be using Rosepoint CE, then I think the NEMO box would be an obvious choice. However, I've read about a few problems getting TZ to talk with the autopilot (AP) through this interface.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has gotten one or the other of these solutions (TZ to AP) working. By "working", I simply mean that the AP sees the next waypoint from TZ and can thus steer to it, ultimately following a route. Thanks!

 

[Arthurc]

I pulled my Nemo when I went to TZ Pro and the TZ rep who i know well was very clear that he doesn’t think the nemo works well in systems he has done. If you need 0183 to n2k or Ethernet he suggested shipmodul. His suggestion which I went with is to use a TZT as the interface point, basically it does all the translation between n2k and Ethernet for TZ Pro, actisense is then a backup. I’ve been really happy with the result and actually use the tzt a lot.

Not trying to knock the nemo, seems like a solid device and I just heard they fixed the issues I was having early in with it, if I was a CE boat I’d use a nemo for sure and still keep mine as a backup.

 

[BCRyan]

I pulled my Nemo when I went to TZ Pro and the TZ rep who i know well was very clear that he doesn’t think the nemo works well in systems he has done. If you need 0183 to n2k or Ethernet he suggested shipmodul. His suggestion which I went with is to use a TZT as the interface point, basically it does all the translation between n2k and Ethernet for TZ Pro, actisense is then a backup. I’ve been really happy with the result and actually use the tzt a lot.

Thank you, Arthur. Extremely helpful. Since I wasn't intending to have any TZT devices, I'll focus on both the Actisense and shipmodul solutions.

 

[Arthurc]

Just confirmed with him, the NGT1 is the only way to go to get real n2k into TZ (versus something converting it to Tcp/udp)

 

[Airstream345]

I can confirm Arthur’s post as well. I still have my Nemo and it while it works incredibly well with CE the Actisense is the way to go with TZ.

 

[BCRyan]

Just confirmed with him, the NGT1 is the only way to go to get real n2k into TZ (versus something converting it to Tcp/udp)

I can confirm Arthur’s post as well. I still have my Nemo and it while it works incredibly well with CE the Actisense is the way to go with TZ.

Thank you both! It's time to start ordering hardware and putting all this dialog into practice.

 

[Iggy]

You can certainly run one split screen window showing 2 or 3 or 4 different functions. Those windows are predefined by TZ, I believe, so you won't have a 3 way side-by-side split since that is not an option. But you could have one on the top half of the window and two side by side on the bottom half. The better way might be to have two windows, one on a screen of its own showing just one function, and the other in a separate side-by side window. That would be great if you can spread that second window across the remaining two screen.

What I am unsure about is whether you can stretch that window to cover more than one screen. I am skeptical since TZ won't let you resize a window -- it is all (full screen) or nothing.

Good luck. I, for one, will be interested to know how it works out. -Rick

I installed TZ Navigator a week ago. You must run it at full screen!

I called them and they remoted in. The tech was not too happy because he was looking at 3 screens on his one. So it was very hard for him to read anything.

I pointed out that this was not the best way running at full screen. I tried to watch a YouTube video on ZT settings and trying to hit the same icons to follow along. TZ will not let that happen. I tried to explain that this is the first windows program that I have ever seen that you MUST run at full screen. Making imposable to watch your tutorials and following alone in TZ. He really didn't care on that point!

Just an FYI and some boaters may know this. I bought C-Map a year ago for my GPS. Now that I have TZ, I wanted it for that too. I called C-Map and long story short. They sad its a different format and I must buy the TZ version. No two way about it. I just think its wrong to pay full price twice giving the fact that one MFD with the chip it can display their map on three of my MFDs.

But using 3 screens is great for creating routes!

 

[Airstream345]

Iggy, this is a cludgey workaround for full screen. Check out post #41 on this topic.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1075504&postcount=41

 

[Iggy]

Iggy, this is a cludgey workaround for full screen. Check out post #41 on this topic.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1075504&postcount=41

I tried! But it kept coming back "invalid path". Can you give an example?

 

[Airstream345]

Hmmm. If you look at the blue bar over each reply there's a number in the right side. Just scroll up to #41

 

[BCRyan]

Update

I've been getting in some equipment and am setting up / debugging on my workbench at home. So far I've purchased the initial NUC, two monitors, and some AIS hardware from Digital Yacht. I have TZ Pro up and running and am very pleased with it so far, albeit just playing around with charts, routing, etc. The user interface seems far nicer to me than the two older chart plotters currently on the boat. I didn't go with touchscreens, but rather a trackball mouse that I can use on the armrest of my helm chair.

Now I'm thinking about how to power this equipment. The NUC and monitors of course come with their 120VAC external power supplies, but I'm assuming that the DC power in my boat will be more reliable. Thus, I'm thinking about DC-to-DC converters to supply the 19V that both the NUC and monitors require, doing away with the factory power supplies:

Any thoughts, good or bad, on this approach? I'm going for redundancy / failover capabilities in case something dies, including a 2nd NUC that's generally powered down but fully configured and ready to go. I could go with HDMI switchers to the monitors, but would probably just swap over all the USB and HDMI cables from one NUC to the other upon failure.

 

[Arthurc]

I have converted all of my pilothouse stuff to DC power including the switches. The converters work just fine. The only issue I encountered was on my NVR it freaked when voltage fell below 12.2v, I installed a voltage stabilizer which fixed that.
Next step is to have it all powered by a separate battery bank up in the PH and a DC/DC charger. I don’t want anything mission critical reliant on my inverter as I don’t have redundancy.

How are you doing the second NUC, did you buy two seats of TZ Pro?
Very interested in what you think about routing?

 

[BCRyan]

How are you doing the second NUC, did you buy two seats of TZ Pro?
Very interested in what you think about routing?

Good info, thank you for your response.

As you probably know, Nobletec offers a 2nd install at half price ($750). I haven't purchased that 2nd seat, yet, but want to at least plan for a 2nd NUC for now.

I didn't end up purchasing the routing module, based on your advice and from others. Manual routing is such a piece of cake that I'm fine leaving it at that level, at least for now.

 

[Arthurc]

Agree on routing.
Having a second seat is a great idea, if your hardware fails you are totally out of luck until you talk to their support team. I technically have a second but unusable seat when my first nuc had a corrupt drive and I had no way to get into TZ and release the license.

 

[BCRyan]

The next thing I'd like to understand is how the Ethernet network will work for my setup. Here's the updated schematic:

Obviously the yellow Ethernet "bus" will physically be a switch. But I'm wondering how address assignment happens. Will I need DHCP services running here (like on the PC), or does it work via hard-IP addressing?

The manuals for both the radar and the sonar appear to assume that there's some flavor of TZT display that is used for initial configuration, but I'm hoping to just run both as black boxes feeding Timezero. Furuno has confirmed that this configuration is supported, but before I start plugging stuff in, I'd like to have a better understanding of how it will work. Thanks!

 

[Arthurc]

I’ll ask my buddy to confirm but I don’t remember it being a problem and I did not assign a specific IP to the radar, AIS manually. They all operate on 172.31 I think. The key thing with Navnet is to keep it a clean network, it should not be mixed with any other devices nor should you try and change its range. There are even specific switches they recommend. For my TZ box I use the hardline interface for navnet and the wan interface for my 192.x regular network. The ip is manually assigned for the navnet interface.

Btw for some reason your pict didn’t come through for me. I’m headed to the boat today so can look at any details if you would like.

 

[Arthurc]

I think I just gave you bad info, I remotely jumped into my TZ pc and the 172.31.252.55 ip it’s assigned is dhcp, not sure where it’s getting that assignment, I’ll look once I’m up there but my guess is its from the tat.

The TZ Pro install manual has this comment in a specific section dedicated to setting up a DRS to TZ connection without an MFD on page 253.

"The computer needs to have an IP address that “matches” the Furuno Network (172.31.x.x/255.255.0.0) in order to exchange information with the DRS. We highly recommended using 172.31.3.150 as a fixed IP address for the computer with a subnet mask of 255.255.0.0."

 

[BCRyan]

Btw for some reason your pict didn’t come through for me. I’m headed to the boat today so can look at any details if you would like.

Still figuring out how best to attach pictures. Here's another attempt: