Stabilized or not?

Vahevala · Apr 20, 2021

Looking for a live aboard long distance cruiser. The discussion is are stabilizers essential? We have been told by a few brokers that we definitely want stabilizers. But could a 52’ full displacement hull boat with 60,000 displacement handle beam seas without stabilizers? Looking at the Seahorse 52 in California and would cruise her down to the Sea of Cortez and maybe through the Panama into the Caribbean, or even up north to PNW/Alaska. Would you go with an unstabilized boat for this type of cruising? We are coming from a 37’ trawler that definitely rolled in beam seas!
Other considerations are DeFever 49RPH, Nordhavn 46 and Cherubini independence 50.
Thanks in advance.

Airstream345 · Apr 20, 2021

A proper blue water boat (Seahorse 52 for example) can handle it but the crew would be far more comfortable with stabilization.

Our unstabilized KK54 was brought around through the canal and up the West coast to Seattle by the previous owner. He reported no safety concerns but a couple of crew had bumps and cuts and bruises. To be fair the boat has a short ketch rig that can offer some stabilization in a beam sea/wind.

As we now prepare her for longer distance crusing (our itenerary is similar to yours with a trip to Alaska on the front end)...we're scheduled to have paravanes fabricated here in Seattle this Spring as I'd like my wife, family and guests to want to continue to cruise.

ktdtx · Apr 20, 2021

could a 52’ full displacement hull boat with 60,000 displacement handle beam seas without stabilizers?

As above-handle it yes but more comfortable with them--Yes.
2 trips from Anacortes to Glacier and back in 52' semi-displacement boat without stabilizers--no real problems but there were a few times stabilizers would have made passengers more comfortable

mvweebles · Apr 20, 2021

Vahevala said:
Looking for a live aboard long distance cruiser. The discussion is are stabilizers essential? We have been told by a few brokers that we definitely want stabilizers. But could a 52’ full displacement hull boat with 60,000 displacement handle beam seas without stabilizers? Looking at the Seahorse 52 in California and would cruise her down to the Sea of Cortez and maybe through the Panama into the Caribbean, or even up north to PNW/Alaska. Would you go with an unstabilized boat for this type of cruising? We are coming from a 37’ trawler that definitely rolled in beam seas!
Other considerations are DeFever 49RPH, Nordhavn 46 and Cherubini independence 50.
Thanks in advance.

This is easy. YOU WANT A STABILIZED BOAT for this type of cruising. Fins, fish, sail, other.....you need some form of stabilizer. Even without beam seas (they often come from every possible direction).

I'm guessing you've never been aboard a stabilized boat. If you had, chances are the question doesn't need to be asked let alone answered.

Peter

Vahevala · Apr 20, 2021

Gotcha. Yes, you’re correct, have never been aboard a stabilized boat. Reading that maintaining them is very expensive, and you need to run the genset the entire time they are active, so added fuel cost as well. We are used to planning our cruising around weather windows to avoid big seas, but know that isn’t always possible and weather happens.

mvweebles · Apr 20, 2021

Seakeeper/Gyro systems generally require full-time generator running. Hydraulic fins do not since most of the work is run off the engine for hydraulics (some boats setup the hydraulic pump off the generator, but that is less common). As far as expense of maintenance, a recent thread had several people state their service costs were in the $2000-$2500 range every 4-5 years or so. Yes, nothing to sneeze at, but not outrageous either.

Paravane/Fish stabilizers are a good option. Less expensive to install, no mechanical systems, and they work well. They are much more manual so not a flip-of-the-switch convenience of fins, but a good option too.

By the numbers, my Willard 36 is about as stable as you can get with a full displacement boat. She's very low to the water with low-ish ceilings (A/B ratio); has very high ballast to displacement ratio (6000# displacement in a designed 25,000# vessel, or almost 25% - Nordhavn and KK are barely 10%). I run my fin-stabilizers when needed which is often during meal prep and that's it. Other taller/bigger boats run them full time (N47, Defever 44, etc).

I promise you that if you cruise, you will not regret buying a stabilized boat. As a matter of fact, you will shake your head and think "Geez - I can't believe I even had to think about this." Any stabilization system is better than no stabilization.

Peter

Vahevala · Apr 20, 2021

Thanks! Just needed the trawlerforum confirmation! We will stay on the hunt for a stabilized boat

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Mako · Apr 20, 2021

Vahela, I wouldn’t be too concerned about finding a stabilized boat as one of your criteria, unless your budget cannot cover installing a new system.

There are alot of options out there. Personally for a boat with your 27 mt displacement, which isn’t so heavy, I’d favor a QuickItaly gyro with a small cruise generator to power it underway, over traditional active fins or a Seakeeper.

sunchaser · Apr 20, 2021

Some vessels have covered up the ideal location for active stabilizers with other equipment or building materials. Don't assume that stabilizers are an easy retrofit. Shop carefully and focus on a solid glass hull for retrofitting.

mvweebles · Apr 20, 2021

Mako said:
Vahela, I wouldn’t be too concerned about finding a stabilized boat as one of your criteria, unless your budget cannot cover installing a new system.

There are alot of options out there. Personally for a boat with your 27 mt displacement, which isn’t so heavy, I’d favor a QuickItaly gyro with a small cruise generator to power it underway, over traditional active fins or a Seakeeper.

Installing stabilizers into a boat that didn't have them is expensive. Assuming there is room, blocks need to be bonded to the hull. A hydraulic pump needs to be attached to engine including pullies and belts. Hoses, electronics, etc. Plus haul and incidentals. No bargain to add after.

Adding a gyro is difficult as an after-thought. Adding a cruising generator requires at least what is required to add a hydraulic pump for fins, plus all the electrics.

I just don't understand this recommendation, especially with an off-brand (to US market) Italian gyro. What could possibly go wrong?

Peter

Flatswing · Apr 20, 2021

Many of the DeFever 49 RPH ‘s (including mine) are stabilized. My admiral rated stabilizers and island Queen master as equally important #1requirements when we looked for our boat (previous GB36CL).

GoneDiving · Apr 20, 2021

I like the paravanes on my 54' steel trawler: makes the world of difference in rough conditions and up out of the way with no power, drag or maintenance costs when conditions are good.

Im pretty old school so would be wary of anything requiring too much power to drive or nouse to maintain.

Taras · Apr 20, 2021

Once you go stabilized, you never go back to an unstabilized boat. Buy a boat with them already installed. Its very expensive to install them yourself. Our Naiad's just run a hydraulic pump off the starboard main engine. Really little maintenance. Fins seals every 6 to 8 years (says the Naiad Tech).

twistedtree · Apr 20, 2021

Whatever boat you get, and however stable it is, it will be significantly more comfortable with stabilizers than without. I'm in the camp of "once you've gone flat, you never go back".

tiltrider1 · Apr 21, 2021

Once you have stabilizers you won’t complain about being waked in a narrow channel.

MYTraveler · Apr 21, 2021

Except while docking (they go crazy when I try to backup), my stabilizers are always on -- even in calm conditions, though I do occasionally forget. My daughters are very quick to notice, however, and ask that I turn on the stabilizers. The difference in roll is remarkable -- though note they do virtually nothing for pitching.

balder8 · Apr 22, 2021

Taras said:
Once you go stabilized, you never go back to an unstabilized boat.

Well said! I am very happy with my Keypower stabs installed ten years ago.
The staff in British Columbia is very reactive and friendly. Like their agent in FL, Shane Bradley from Starlight Marine Services. He just sent me new solenoids in less than four days to Europe!They know very well this kind of equipment which must be properly installed.
Also, I must try my plan B, horizontal paravanes in galva steel with fish, no hydraulics etc but less easy than push the button on dashboard.

AlanT · Apr 22, 2021

Vahevala said:
Gotcha. Yes, you’re correct, have never been aboard a stabilized boat. Reading that maintaining them is very expensive, and you need to run the genset the entire time they are active, so added fuel cost as well. We are used to planning our cruising around weather windows to avoid big seas, but know that isn’t always possible and weather happens.

I just had my Naiad Stabs serviced. Materials + Labor $1,033 in Tacoma WA. Tech said that they hadn't been done for 6 years or so (boat is new to me) and recommended a 3-5 year service interval.

My Stabs run off a main engine.

Beam Seas can and do occur even in any fair weather window, as can large wakes. With Stabs you set and forget. You do not need to steer into that wake from a passing ship, you just steam right on.

I am new to stabilizers and am wowed by the improvement. On our old boat we used to have to time our crossing of the Juan de Fuca channel early morning to avoid the constant beam seas, and it was still very uncomfortable at times. With Stabs the boat simply did not roll at all. ~A

Gordon J · Apr 22, 2021

What he said

mvweebles said:
This is easy. YOU WANT A STABILIZED BOAT for this type of cruising. Fins, fish, sail, other.....you need some form of stabilizer. Even without beam seas (they often come from every possible direction).

I'm guessing you've never been aboard a stabilized boat. If you had, chances are the question doesn't need to be asked let alone answered.

Peter

I would never own an unstable trawler. Only those without them dis them.

balder8 · Apr 23, 2021

Gordon J said:
I would never own an unstable trawler. Only those without them dis them.

There are not, indeed, many rules:

1 coastal cruising, semi planning with twin engines, medium size engines, run from 12Knt to 20 with flaps. Everything is ok in more or less normal weather and waves conditions. Flat seas, run at 7 knts, more economical, little rolling.
Very bad seas, obliged to run also at displacment speed, everybody sick, lockers opening underway, hope to back soon in the marina!

2 offshore cruising and coastal cruising in difficult areas ( predominant weather, currents etc), heavy displacment with one low RPM and silent engine, heavy duty M2 or M1 +stabs or paravanes, less noise and vibrations! Permanently at 7 or 8 knts, you accept to be late for dinner with friends at the marina.Or you have planned to do a lot of miles before arriving at destination, and you know the goal. Sometimes you may regret, but safety and comfort first, less maintenance with one engine than two...And you feel more relax, like on a sailing boat, but with more space aboard.

AusCan · Apr 23, 2021

I'm sold on stabilizers of some sort on a boat, even though I am a "keep it simple" kind of guy. I don't need thrusters or a generator many other things that others feel is a requirement, but without my steadying sails and rolling chocks, my opportunity for getting out in the boat would be cut in half.

If I boated in protected waters, it wouldn't be a big deal without stabilization. The occasional wake in a narrow channel can easily be dealt with. But in open water, a relentless swell on the beam is hard on the crew and the boat. Sure, I could often change course to reduce the rolling from unbearable to uncomfortable, and double the time to get from A to B, but in a confused sea there is no escape.

In my narrow 30 foot boat the options for stabiizatiion are limited, so rolling chocks and steadying sails do the job. They allow me to get out on the water much more than 90% of the boats in the marina, which wait endlessly for perfect conditions before venturing out.

JWellington · Apr 23, 2021

Stablizers are NOT essential, based on the fact that most boats in history havn't had them. but they are things like......desirable, perferable, etc. And as mentioned above, there are several kinds.

mvweebles · Apr 23, 2021

JWellington said:
Stablizers are NOT essential, based on the fact that most boats in history havn't had them. but they are things like......desirable, perferable, etc. And as mentioned above, there are several kinds.

Not essential? Good luck selling that to my wife.

MYTraveler · Apr 23, 2021

JWellington said:
Stablizers are NOT essential, based on the fact that most boats in history havn't had them. but they are things like......desirable, perferable, etc. And as mentioned above, there are several kinds.

Under that theory, neither is electricity, shelter more advanced than a cave, etc. The problem is referring to essential in the abstract. If, instead, the question is asked whether stabilizers are essential to enjoyable boating, for many the answer will be yes.

Dswizzler · Apr 26, 2021

Yes/No

Stabilization is great, if you can afford it and depending on where and when you travel. Eight years living aboard and 6 years full time cruising on a 58ft Vantare, with no stabilization on the boat. We left San Francisco in 2015, spent 5 years loving and cruising Mexico. currently 250 north of the Panama Canal, which we expect to pass through in June. We pick out weather windows when we travel have have never been concerned. If you plan to live aboard and cruise fulltime, I’d recommend a good water maker, great solar panel and lithium batteries. Stabilization is a great option, if you can afford it, but I’d put other items higher on the list.

jim.johnson3570 · Apr 26, 2021

Vahevala said:
Gotcha. Yes, you’re correct, have never been aboard a stabilized boat. Reading that maintaining them is very expensive, and you need to run the genset the entire time they are active, so added fuel cost as well. We are used to planning our cruising around weather windows to avoid big seas, but know that isn’t always possible and weather happens.

That is not entirely correct many active-stabilizers operate on a PTO off one or both mains and maybe a generator backup. Then there are the passive or fixed type like paravanes which require no hydraulic assistance

Mako · Apr 26, 2021

Dswizzler said:
If you plan to live aboard and cruise fulltime, I’d recommend a good water maker, great solar panel and lithium batteries.

Not to drift too far from the topic of stabilization... I like what you have to say except not sure I agree with the need for lithium batteries.

Spending time in remote locales I think I feel better with a dead-nuts dependable 2V industrial bank versus microchip controlled LiFePO’s.

It sound great to be able to capture every last electron into a lithium bank, but having a large bank of “great solar panels” means excessive power generation compared your daily needs, which works well with FLA.

“Milk and cookies”

Admittedly though I think my stance is in the minority these days.

rslifkin · Apr 26, 2021

Mako said:
Not to drift too far from the topic of stabilization... I like what you have to say except not sure I agree with the need for lithium batteries.

Spending time in remote locales I think I feel better with a dead-nuts dependable 2V industrial bank versus microchip controlled LiFePO’s.

It sound great to be able to capture every last electron into a lithium bank, but having a large bank of “great solar panels” means excessive power generation compared your daily needs, which works well with FLA.

“Milk and cookies”

Admittedly though I think my stance is in the minority these days.

I tend to agree. There are times where Lithium makes sense. If you need more power in a given weight envelope or won't be able to fully recharge them regularly, go lithium. If you can get them topped off almost every day and size / weight isn't an issue, save the $$$ and use some form of lead-acid battery.

garychurch · Apr 26, 2021

Most traditional stabilizers are hydraulic (I.e., ABT, NAIAD) and run of a PTO from the engine(s).

You want them.

timb7734 · Apr 26, 2021

balder8 said:
There are not, indeed, many rules:

1 coastal cruising, semi planning with twin engines, medium size engines, run from 12Knt to 20 with flaps. Everything is ok in more or less normal weather and waves conditions. Flat seas, run at 7 knts, more economical, little rolling.
Very bad seas, obliged to run also at displacment speed, everybody sick, lockers opening underway, hope to back soon in the marina!

2 offshore cruising and coastal cruising in difficult areas ( predominant weather, currents etc), heavy displacment with one low RPM and silent engine, heavy duty M2 or M1 +stabs or paravanes, less noise and vibrations! Permanently at 7 or 8 knts, you accept to be late for dinner with friends at the marina.Or you have planned to do a lot of miles before arriving at destination, and you know the goal. Sometimes you may regret, but safety and comfort first, less maintenance with one engine than two...And you feel more relax, like on a sailing boat, but with more space aboard.

What?
I have a semi displacement vessel with active stabilizers, and no uncomfortable issues at cruising speed or trawler speed.

Also have a 40 ton trawler with Seakeeper where the stabilizer removes 80% of the roll. Also has two engines, also we know our speed and adjust our commitments so we are not late for dinner.

Stabilized or not?

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