Abnormal Diesel oil analysis.

I made an offer to purchase a trawler. The oil analysis came back not good with some critical severe and abnormal. They are 1989 Ford Lehman 6 cyl turbo charged diesels, 275 hp with about 3000. hours. Would you buy a boat with these readings? The engines ran strong during the sea trial with no smoke. With these readings,


I am concerned that these engines are on the verge of requiring a rebuild.

What am I looking at?

Appears to be bearing material. I’m looking at the picture on an iPad which makes it hard to read. I see nothing indicating hour on the oil. Do you know what the hours on the oil are?

Just seems like a lot of iron also which would indicate other issues. I’m sure other with more experience will chime in with a better understanding of the numbers.

The high sodium could be from coolant or water ingestion into motor along with the high copper content. How are the heat exchangers and maintenance on them? Fresh water or salt water kept? If you are still interested in the boat, I would look into an engine survey!

-Rich

Were the results similar in both engines?


Have the engines been inspected by a diesel mechanic, especially knowing the oil sample results?


Personally, I would walk away. The combination of sodium and wear metals suggested salt water got in the engine with resulting corrosion. That almost certainly means new engines.


But the guy you want to hear from is Ski_in_NC, so contact him if he doesn't reply on his own.

Report shows 100 hours on oil and 3000 engine hours

Decent article by Steve D on oil analysis and offers some indicators of what each elevated number might indicate. He also has several pdf articles if you google "Steve D'Antionio oil analysis"

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/oil-analysis/

High aluminum is from pistons. High iron levels is probably from the cylinders, but could be some simple rust. Copper? Not sure - might be indicative of the bearings, but I would expect Chromium to be high in that case.

The aluminum is enough for me - I'd move on to another boat myself.

Peter

One engine had normal sodium ... suggesting the one with abnormal sodium brought salt water in somehow.

100 hours on the oil, according to the owner.

Iron and aluminum could be from pistons/cylinders. Copper usually from bushing bearings like wristpin bearings. Sodium is usually from seawater. Definitely looks like a problem engine.

The engines were strong on sea trial.
I suspect the oil and water heat exchangers. Where else does tin and lead come from. Mine were '0'. The report does not present the same as Blackstone that also gives universal averages and same engine averages to give a benchmark to compare with.

I wonder how the same test would look like if the oil was changed.

How much calendar time on the oil? Copper can leach from oil cooler, really nothing to worry about there. More will be present with more calendar time. To some extent Fe and Al too. Those numbers like kinda normal too.

The Na is troubling. There may be a bit of coolant weep of a head gasket, but that could be so minor to be a non-issue, especially with a lot of calendar time. A few drips a month can really add up if oil has been in there for four years.

Not likely sea water, as it has a ratio of Na to K of about 40:1 and the K reading is nil. Some coolants have lots of Na, and some lots of Na and K, but that varies with the particular coolant formulation.

Look in the oil fill caps with a good light and see if there is any corrosion on the valve gear. Should be grey shiny metal with no rust.

Owner said both engines had valve jobs four years ago. Also, one turbo looks newer than the other, but must have been done by a previous owner.

Ski your knowledge is impressive.
I must be the only one here that has to look up what Na, K, Fe etc is.
Any reason you cannot speak english and refer to post 1 names on the report?

Hammer said:

Owner said both engines had valve jobs four years ago. Also, one turbo looks newer than the other, but must have been done by a previous owner.

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That would suggest an answer of 4 calendar years on the oil, as I would change the oil after doing that work to start fresh.

Soo-Valley said:

That would suggest an answer of 4 calendar years on the oil, as I would change the oil after doing that work to start fresh.

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But would you buy the boat? Could be old oil but maybe not. Not sure where aluminum came from if only a valve job.

I'd pass on the boat. Maybe it's fine. I wouldn't want the chance it's not.

Good luck whichever direction you go.

Peter

mvweebles said:

But would you buy the boat? Could be old oil but maybe not. Not sure where aluminum came from if only a valve job.

I'd pass on the boat. Maybe it's fine. I wouldn't want the chance it's not.

Good luck whichever direction you go.

Peter

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If I was interested in the boat I would investigate further. For instance there are aluminum heat exchangers available. I would not use one with salt water cooling, but suppose the one on the boat IS aluminum. Suddenly it changes the oil report.
Oil sample testing is becoming the norm. What if the next boat you look at had the oil changed a month before but the seller says it was done two years ago, some 200 hours ago. The oil test would come back looking good for two year old oil.
I watched the video at the end of your link, that was very informative and everyone should watch it.
https://vimeo.com/158187739

Soo-Valley said:

If I was interested in the boat I would investigate further. For instance there are aluminum heat exchangers available. I would not use one with salt water cooling, but suppose the one on the boat IS aluminum. Suddenly it changes the oil report.
Oil sample testing is becoming the norm. What if the next boat you look at had the oil changed a month before but the seller says it was done two years ago, some 200 hours ago. The oil test would come back looking good for two year old oil.

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Well, there's an engine I won't own. Okay with aluminim in an outboard (no real choice), but not aluminum on the main. Some of the Perkins' 6.354s had aluminum housings for the heat exchange and it's a fragile part.

Sure, seller could be dishonest and misrepresent hours. If the boat doesn't have maintenance records or they look like they were all written-up at once, that's a problem in and of itself.

A powerboat has two basic jobs: it must float, and it must have an engine. The engine oil analysis the OP shared shows a serious flaw in one of those two criteria.

Peter

mvweebles said:

Well, there's an engine I won't own. Okay with aluminim in an outboard (no real choice), but not aluminum on the main.

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Sorta depends on the component. I had 2 aluminum block Jimmy 6-71’s. I would prefer iron blocks but I have to admit they were really solid even after 50 years.

The 5000 hour Lehman in the boat I just sold had miniscule numbers of those elements with 80 hours on the oil.
If it were me I'd also pass on this one.
Unless you feel lucky

jleonard said:

The 5000 hour Lehman in the boat I just sold had miniscule numbers of those elements with 80 hours on the oil.
If it were me I'd also pass on this one.
Unless you feel lucky

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Jay, the jury is still out. Bailing is an option.

These engines means more than one and only one oil report shown. Both engines ran strong at sea trial.

As I said if interested in the boat, I will first exhaust the investigation to ensure the test was not a false positive, misleading information. I have alluded to how a clean report can be manufactured by an underhanded seller. Most boats are sold because the current owner got tired of fixing things and may have let it go to long. So expect things to fix will be normal.

Can you buy it at that right price and solve the problems to bring it to market value, that is my approach.

Hammer said:

I made an offer to purchase a trawler. The oil analysis came back not good with some critical severe and abnormal. They are 1989 Ford Lehman 6 cyl turbo charged diesels, 275 hp with about 3000. hours. Would you buy a boat with these readings? The engines ran strong during the sea trial with no smoke. With these readings,


I am concerned that these engines are on the verge of requiring a rebuild.

What am I looking at?

Click to expand...

Back out and move on.

The SP275 has saltwater cooled aftercoolers. I would suspect it is leaking allowing the engine to ingest saltwater. Bomac has replacement cores for about $2K a piece.

"Running strong" is such a great term. They all do until they don't. My westerbeke 8BTD with similar oil analysis ran strong until it would not start coming out of storage. Low compression (270 psig) in all 3 cyls.

It may need a rebuild. Adjust the offer accordingly or walk away.

Sodium is high. Water is not but that evaporates with use. Iron is rust or liners, probably rust at jackets. Suspect a water leak, jacket or coolers. Bearings would indicate tin before copper as copper / nickel is the interlayer. Aluminium is pistons but can come from scuffing or sitting around with dampness on the tops. Oil hours can be misleading, anyone can change the oil to cover this up. I'd get the coolant system pressure tested firstly then the compression. Coolers can be fixed. Everything else seems ok, just that salt level is suspicious. Remember the seller is probably a decent honest guy so if you want the boat work with him a while to get to the bottom of it all.

Having certain bad numbers in an oil analysis do not always spell DOOM. That engine might go a long time before it starts having serious problems.

Then again...it may crash very soon, you are looking at $20,000 for a complete professional rebuild.

You have to ask yourself, "Do I feel Lucky?"

pete

I just re read Blackstone info. They say take the sample after running engine and letting it settle down and from the middle, never from the bottom to avoid reading many years of settled metals etc.
Often taken through dipstick hole but that could be from the bottom.
Previously I suggested if you like the boat investigate further. For a cost of $50 send your own oil test sample. I kick the tires before I open the hood.

Can be lack of use for cylinder rust (aluminium & iron) and leaking coolers for the same reason (sodium & copper).

At the end of the day ford engines are relatively simple and can be rebuilt to give another >10,000 hrs of use.

If the boat is clean adjust the offer to at least cover new coolers, and some possible engine work. If you purchase have the seller fix the coolers, and have bores inspected with a decent bore scope. Change the oil and filters and run the engines lightly <1400rpm for the next 25hrs and do another oil and filter change. If just very light bore rust you may get lucky and have many more years of trouble free use.

In the end it all comes down to the overall condition of the boat and the purchase price. Good luck with your decision moving forward

Decided to pass

The seller had already invested significant sums in restoring the boat, and I did not want to ask for concessions enough to cover a rebuild. Further, we wanted a boat to be a cruising boat, and did not want to worry about significant downtime even with concessions.

The remedies, further testing and analysis put forth by all would be feasible, but the boat is 200 miles away, and not sure who would pay for the testing. Although we felt there was a very good chance the engines would test differently. We did not want to invest more.

Based on comps, I was paying market price for the boat. I just didn't see the seller giving me a $14k concession. So we decided to decline to complete the sale.

Thanks all for the advice.

Hammer said:

The seller had already invested significant sums in restoring the boat, and I did not want to ask for concessions enough to cover a rebuild. Further, we wanted a boat to be a cruising boat, and did not want to worry about significant downtime even with concessions.

The remedies, further testing and analysis put forth by all would be feasible, but the boat is 200 miles away, and not sure who would pay for the testing. Although we felt there was a very good chance the engines would test differently. We did not want to invest more.

Based on comps, I was paying market price for the boat. I just didn't see the seller giving me a $14k concession. So we decided to decline to complete the sale.

Thanks all for the advice.

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I think that's a really good decision. There is just no reason to buy a project, unless you are specifically looking for a project.

Ski, what Na to K ratio would indicate saltwater intrusion?