Marine Insurance

I wanted to take everyone's temp on what marine insurance provider they like. I have an '81 Present trawler. I have always been with BoatUS, in the last several years they have partnered with Geico and the policy has changed to depreciate parts to 20 percent of replacement cost. I had to file my first claim last year on another boat and really got dinged by this provision. I have talked to a couple of insurance guys and most policies tie spill coverage to an event, such as an accident to get coverage. As I have an old trawler, I want to make sure spill coverage is independent to cover a potential diesel tank leak.

Any opinions on carriers or agents? I am located in Wisconsin.

Appreciate the input.

floatingmick said:

I wanted to take everyone's temp on what marine insurance provider they like. I have an '81 Present trawler. I have always been with BoatUS, in the last several years they have partnered with Geico and the policy has changed to depreciate parts to 20 percent of replacement cost. I had to file my first claim last year on another boat and really got dinged by this provision. I have talked to a couple of insurance guys and most policies tie spill coverage to an event, such as an accident to get coverage. As I have an old trawler, I want to make sure spill coverage is independent to cover a potential diesel tank leak.

Any opinions on carriers or agents? I am located in Wisconsin.

Appreciate the input.

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I have been using Jack Martin in Annapolis over 4 boats in widely varied locales. They have always offered me alternatives at each renewal and if asked will talk you through policy differences between the various policies.

Even though I live in Florida, I continue to use:

Gowie Group Inc
formerly: International Marine Insurance Services (IMIS)
in Grasonville, Maryland

Have been extremely happy with them since 2014.

Ted

There is boat insurance and then there is Yacht Insurance. Maybe Pau Hana will jump in here. He used to be an underwriter for Gieco.

It seems most people pay less than I do for insurance. It appears most people get less for their money than I do.

A good Insurance broker is everything.

Consider speaking to Peter Ricks (info below). He got insurance on our 39 year old trawler through Red Shield. No depreciation on less than total loss, spill cleanup is separate item on policy. Reasonable rates, but that is in the Pacific North West. Also, please note, as of 1 January 2021, Geico/Boats US is no longer insuring boats over 30 years old, or longer than 30 feet. Some people report that they are grandfathered, but I'm not sure if they've renewed their policies since 1 Jan, or for how long Geico will continue to grandfather people. We applied to Geico, as I was pleased that they covered navigation area of US and Canada, with no increases for hurricane dates, but they elected not to respond due to their new policy. Good luck and please let us know what you decide!


If you use Peter, give him our name. He sent me coffee cups and pens for recommending people!


Scot Kellersberger

Peter Ricks
Northwest Regional Manager
NOVAMAR INSURANCE GROUP, INC.
WA Lic # 249824

2500 Westlake Avenue N, Suite D
Seattle, WA 98109

Office: (800) 823 2798
Direct: (206) 350-5051
Mobile: (253) 377-0649
Fax: (206) 281-8036

I'll post another recommendation for Pete

He has been insuring boats for us for a couple decades and even helped us with a policy issue while he was working for Geico as a underwriter.

Wonderful guy, and very knowledgable!

Ditto on Pete. He got me a very nice yacht policy on my 33 year old boat with no depreciation and great coverage terms. He's the best!

+100% for Pete. He contacted me a month out for renewal. When I was with other insurances I was lucky to get notified. Great customer service.

My friends of the Pairadice was having issues with his insurance in Mexico. Pete was having dinner with his wife and dropped what he was doing to assist Pairadice.

Peter Ricks is Pau Hana.

I want to be careful in my response to the OP as I believe insurance for our 20 year old 25' boat does not translate cleanly for larger boats, especially older larger boats.


We insured our boats with Boat US for over 20 years. In 2007 Boat US was sold to National Indemnity Company (Berkshire Hathaway) and this past January ownership was transferred to another Berkhire Hathaway entity; Geico, per Trade Only Today (Soundings). After prior TF and Rosborough Owners insurance threads I was waiting for an increase and perhaps cancellation due to age. Boat US/Geico did send a policy increase of 30% but no issue with age of our 2000 boat. Went to bid with Progressive, Chubb and State Farm. All were cheaper but Boat US/Geico had better coverage except for Fuel/Liquid spill which BoatUS/Geico was superior at $1 million. It appears the standard industry coverage starts at $500K. We ended up insuring our Rosborough with State Farm where we have other policies including an umbrella policy that we confirmed would supplement our new boat policy. Age of boat was non-issue at all three bidders.


Lots of companies are raising fees this year. So far we have been able to avoid all price increases simply by bidding with appropriate vendors. My two cents.


Was happy to only receive a 5% dockage increase. My marina had held pricing for the past 5 years.



Leonard

Leonard Atkins said:

I want to be careful in my response to the OP as I believe insurance for our 20 year old 25' boat does not translate cleanly for larger boats, especially older larger boats.


We insured our boats with Boat US for over 20 years. In 2007 Boat US was sold to National Indemnity Company (Berkshire Hathaway) and this past January ownership was transferred to another Berkhire Hathaway entity; Geico, per Trade Only Today (Soundings). After prior TF and Rosborough Owners insurance threads I was waiting for an increase and perhaps cancellation due to age. Boat US/Geico did send a policy increase of 30% but no issue with age of our 2000 boat. Went to bid with Progressive, Chubb and State Farm. All were cheaper but Boat US/Geico had better coverage except for Fuel/Liquid spill which BoatUS/Geico was superior at $1 million. It appears the standard industry coverage starts at $500K. We ended up insuring our Rosborough with State Farm where we have other policies including an umbrella policy that we confirmed would supplement our new boat policy. Age of boat was non-issue at all three bidders.


Lots of companies are raising fees this year. So far we have been able to avoid all price increases simply by bidding with appropriate vendors. My two cents.


Was happy to only receive a 5% dockage increase. My marina had held pricing for the past 5 years.



Leonard

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Check on if your policy has a salvage cap. Some limit coverage. I ran into this several times as a salvage operator. It’s a bad day if you sink, worse to find out why your policy was so cheap.

Greatlaker221;


Good point. I have $80K in salvage on the policy plus an umbrella policy which I confirmed would cover our boat without limitation from the same insurer.


Leonard

AlanT said:

I have been using Jack Martin in Annapolis over 4 boats in widely varied locales. They have always offered me alternatives at each renewal and if asked will talk you through policy differences between the various policies.

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They administer our Markel policy, but by buying it through the MTOA we got better coverage for less money than by going direct. The cost of MTOA membership was a fraction of our savings.

Always feel like I should know every abbreviation, but, what is "MTOA"? I appreciate all the responses!

floatingmick said:

Always feel like I should know every abbreviation, but, what is "MTOA"? I appreciate all the responses!

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Marine Trawler Owners Association

I use Anchor Marine Insurance out of Seattle. They brokered me to Lloyds. It costs less than Geico and they KNOW boats! I had a loss with them about 10 years ago after my boat was sunk at the dock due to a storm. They were awesome. I just remember being on the phone for an hour with Geico trying to explain why I did not keep my 36 foot 30000 pound boat on a trailer.....

Finnegus said:

I use Anchor Marine Insurance out of Seattle. They brokered me to Lloyds. It costs less than Geico and they KNOW boats! I had a loss with them about 10 years ago after my boat was sunk at the dock due to a storm. They were awesome. I just remember being on the phone for an hour with Geico trying to explain why I did not keep my 36 foot 30000 pound boat on a trailer.....

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I was with them for a number of years until I got a letter saying ASD was too old (1988) and unless I could prove I re-powered in the last 6 months my insurance was gone. I contacted Peter Hau (sp) and he set me up a good policy and I go through him know. Awesome service. He is a member here.

Peter Ricks
www.novamarinsurance.com
peter@novamar.net
TF User name Pau Hana

+1

I did not think of that... My boat is 45 years old but the power plant is 2006. I gave up on Geico after trying to explain to the rep that "No, the HIN # is not pop riveted to the transom" of the 70 year old wood trawler I had at the time. She was unable to grasp that the Documentation number etched in the main deck beam at build was the vessel ID number.

tiltrider1 said:

Peter Ricks is Pau Hana.

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No spoiler alert or anything, just threw it right out there.

Small Dinghy said:

No spoiler alert or anything, just threw it right out there.

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Thanks I couldn't remember right off the spot.

Geico just informed me by mail that they're increasing my insurance by 44% this year after increasing it 25% for moving from a slip to a mooring earlier this year.

1979 CHB 41, agreed value of $85k, now up to $1700/yr. $1M fuel spill, $500k uninsured & liability. I should probably increase the latter, too... Let's see if Novamar can hook me up!

One other exclusion on hull and equipment that struck me: any loss, damage or expense caused directly or indirectly by "...mechanical breakdown, structural breakdown, overheating or galvanic action"

I'm wondering if there's really much point in anything but liability insurance on an older vessel like this.

socalrider said:

Geico just informed me by mail that they're increasing my insurance by 44% this year after increasing it 25% for moving from a slip to a mooring earlier this year.

1979 CHB 41, agreed value of $85k, now up to $1700/yr. $1M fuel spill, $500k uninsured & liability. I should probably increase the latter, too... Let's see if Novamar can hook me up!

One other exclusion on hull and equipment that struck me: any loss, damage or expense caused directly or indirectly by "...mechanical breakdown, structural breakdown, overheating or galvanic action"

I'm wondering if there's really much point in anything but liability insurance on an older vessel like this.

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Since you are in SD you might want to give Beth a call at Douglas K. Smith Marine Insurance in Pt. Loma. They got me a pretty good policy for my boat and Beth is really responsive. bchavet@dksmarineinsurance.com

Last week had a long chat with a broker as I was preparing to put in a offer on a boat. Current situation.
Vendors continue to consolidate, leave the market or limit who they will insure.
Vendors are paying more attention to experience and expected cruising grounds.
My assumption from inferences from this conversation is vendors are aware of prior claims made regardless of prior insurer.
Vendors act as though they believe in MMCC so have factored in increased named storms and increased severity of said storms. Language for storm plans has and will change. They took a huge hit in recent years in US east coast and eastern Caribbean so in that area you can expect to pay and pay.
Vendors do pay attention to where you live and distance from principal berthing.
Brand matters. Both in valuation and insurability. They will insure quality boats of greater age at less of a premium.
For equivalent boats one offs are likely to be more expensive to insure.
Vendors will continue and probably increase the tactic of paying out claims slower. They make money off of the premiums which are then invested. Longer they hold those funds more money they make. Therefore as a customer it’s important you are insured in a company based in your home country where you have legal standing and are protected by the laws of your home country.
Due to Covid boats and owners where stranded. Resulted in boats sitting with owners sitting in a different country. Hence, decreased service, mooring situation putting more risk on the boat and increased risk of claims. Again my inference but seems insurers have appreciated this risk will likely be recurrent and there’s a risk of future similar events. International rate increases in part reflect that possible future.
Net result you can expect insurance rates to continue to climb, policies to have more outs so the insurance won’t pay and more restrictions on your activities while boating.
Personally this will impact on my purchasing decisions. Will effect how old a boat I’ll buy, what brand and how much I’ll budget for insurance.

Very good analysis Hippocampus.
The Insurance industry is all about minimizing risk and now with so many push button boaters and saturation numbers in popular destination , the risks are now too high for them to be competitive

Age of boat has nothing to do with seaworthiness as a 3 year old boat, abused and not maintained can be very dangerous .

I only carry liability to satisfy marina policy and have always operated with the conservative mindset that there is no safety net.....which happens to be very true here in Asia .

What I'm trying to say is that I would never let an Insurance company dictate my choice of boat, or how/where/when I operate.

I take full responsibility for those decisions and am prepared to pay the price....
Just think it keeps you a bit sharper!

Sounds like good insurance market analysis, except for purposely paying out claims slower to maximize investment income. For the big boys it's a steadily rolling payout average. Purposely delaying the claims payment conveyor belt doesn't really get you anywhere in the long run - in fact, the company risks bad faith claims by doing that, and the payable claims just stack up on your balance sheet.

KT - would think if you delay payments out by let’s say a year every year in 2 years you’ve held x dollars for an extra year and got a years worth of investment income from those dollars. In ten years you still you’ve stil got that extra year of income in your pocket. If you started to pay in less time you’d eat into that extra years investment income. If you changed and started to pay out in a year and a half you’d have that year that runs through the years unchanged plus an extra 6 months. What am I missing? Please explain.

socalrider said:

Geico just informed me by mail that they're increasing my insurance by 44% this year after increasing it 25% for moving from a slip to a mooring earlier this year.

1979 CHB 41, agreed value of $85k, now up to $1700/yr. $1M fuel spill, $500k uninsured & liability. I should probably increase the latter, too... Let's see if Novamar can hook me up!

One other exclusion on hull and equipment that struck me: any loss, damage or expense caused directly or indirectly by "...mechanical breakdown, structural breakdown, overheating or galvanic action"

I'm wondering if there's really much point in anything but liability insurance on an older vessel like this.

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Since you thought of liability only, How about ask them what if the agreed value was say $50,000. I am suggesting go below market value with the agreed value.

Soo-Valley said:

Since you thought of liability only, How about ask them what if the agreed value was say $50,000. I am suggesting go below market value with the agreed value.

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Check out your home/car insurance agency. When Geico sent me a non renewal notice (reason not important) I found that my agency with which I already had a substantial relationship (home, 3 vehicles, jewelery, etc) offered good coverage (damage, liability, etc.) at a lower price than marine insurance brokers offered. My point is check out all possibilities. And let’s not start arguing “yacht vs boat” insurance.

Just got my Insurance renewal. It went up 1%. Pu Hanna is my broker and Red Shield is the underwriter.