Rudders are seized!!!

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Steve91T

Steve91T

Guru
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
898
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Abeona
Vessel Make
Marine Trader 47’ Sundeck
Hello everyone. Long story short, boat has been sitting for a while. Been catching up on maintenance. About once every month and a half I’ve been down to the boat. Diver has been diving every 5-6 weeks. He replaced zincs a few months ago.

6 weeks ago my buddy and I doing oil changes and other things. Ran the engines. All was well.

Yesterday I bring the family down with plans on taking a 4 1/2 hr trip to Fernando Beach and back. We arrived to a dead boat. Shore power was still working but all the batteries were dead. No idea why the charger stopped working. So I isolated the house batteries and that came back overnight. Now I’m letting the start batteries charge. So we were getting ready to fire up the engines and leave when my 2 1/2 year old discovered my rudders are locked up. Here’s what I found.

Are my dead batteries and this corrosion possibly related? Do I have a stray current? How do I check for that?

Also can I on blaster these stuffing boxes? Or is the damage beyond repair? The diver said every thing looked great 6 weeks ago.

Thanks guys.
Steve
 

Attachments

  • 56D04EB9-E284-4C64-B2C5-51EA3A0A04C2.jpg
    56D04EB9-E284-4C64-B2C5-51EA3A0A04C2.jpg
    193.6 KB · Views: 50
  • F57D7C05-3047-40A4-99D4-45F571EC4CAA.jpg
    F57D7C05-3047-40A4-99D4-45F571EC4CAA.jpg
    170.6 KB · Views: 51
  • 2BAD40E4-085F-4230-BA0F-4EC46E415A46.jpg
    2BAD40E4-085F-4230-BA0F-4EC46E415A46.jpg
    177 KB · Views: 53
Steve91T said:
Hello everyone. Long story short, boat has been sitting for a while. Been catching up on maintenance. About once every month and a half I’ve been down to the boat. Diver has been diving every 5-6 weeks. He replaced zincs a few months ago.

6 weeks ago my buddy and I doing oil changes and other things. Ran the engines. All was well.

Yesterday I bring the family down with plans on taking a 4 1/2 hr trip to Fernando Beach and back. We arrived to a dead boat. Shore power was still working but all the batteries were dead. No idea why the charger stopped working. So I isolated the house batteries and that came back overnight. Now I’m letting the start batteries charge. So we were getting ready to fire up the engines and leave when my 2 1/2 year old discovered my rudders are locked up. Here’s what I found.

Are my dead batteries and this corrosion possibly related? Do I have a stray current? How do I check for that?

Also can I on blaster these stuffing boxes? Or is the damage beyond repair? The diver said every thing looked great 6 weeks ago.

Thanks guys.
Steve
Click to expand...

Maybe you lost shore power for some time and the batteries went dead but usually it wouldn’t take your start batteries as well but it depends on how your boat is wired.

You have some serious corrosion going on on the rudder stuffing box. You can try loosing the stuffing box and see if the rudders free up some. However you may get some water leaking in, or a lot of water but probably not lots. I would just loosen up the nuts and see what happens then get some new packing and repack the box. I like Duramax stuffing. I would clean up all the verdigris that you can and see if it come back quickly.

Maybe get a certified marine electrician to check the boat out for the charging and for current leakage.

Good luck.
 
Comodave said:
Maybe you lost shore power for some time and the batteries went dead but usually it wouldn’t take your start batteries as well but it depends on how your boat is wired.

You have some serious corrosion going on on the rudder stuffing box. You can try loosing the stuffing box and see if the rudders free up some. However you may get some water leaking in, or a lot of water but probably not lots. I would just loosen up the nuts and see what happens then get some new packing and repack the box. I like Duramax stuffing. I would clean up all the verdigris that you can and see if it come back quickly.

Maybe get a certified marine electrician to check the boat out for the charging and for current leakage.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks. So there’s a chance they can be saved? I thought for sure the boat needed to come out.
 
A lot of people repack shafts and rudder shafts in the water. Be ready for the water coming in and make sure your pumps are in good working order. It should not be a huge amount of water but it may startle you. Have some rags ready to stuff in while you work on it. If you can determine what size packing you need have some on hand. You may not be able to tell what size before you take it apart though. If you do get it apart and you aren’t sure what size you need, take a drill bit and see what size bit fits between the shaft and the side of the stuffing box. Then order that size stuffing. You may get by just cleaning up all the verdigris and see what happens.
 
My advice is change everything out. Even if you got everything free, you might find the bronze boxes are compromised. The metal could be turning to dust. I would not waste time and money trying to safe them.
 
Mine have some verdigris on them too, not as much as in the photos, but structurally they are sound. This is usually just on the surface and doesn’t compromise the stuffing box.
 
So is this a normal thing to happen or does it indicate another problem? Like I said I thought zincs prevented this
 
There are several better mechanics on this forum than I am. But I just don't recall rudders seizing. The hydraulic steering system can operate at high pressure so this sounds unusual. But could be my inexperience.

Personally, before I did anything, I'd see if the rudders can be moved by hand. If there's a crossover valve between the two lines, open it. This allows the fluid to just move between the ends of the cylinder, not through the helm pumps. If there is no crossover valve, I'd disconnect the cylinder from the linkage. Rudders should move freely by hand. If it doesn't, I would certainly loosen the packing glands. And yes, repack. It's pretty straightforward. If youre not comfortable and have a decent mechanic, it would not take him long.

Not sure what I'd do after that. But would keep trying to isolate the component that is not allowing fluid to pass.

Good luck

Peter
 
Last edited:
Greetings,
Mr. 91. The verdigris is formed by a reaction between the bronze housing and salt water and probably hastened along by less than perfect grounding. You probably have had a long term seepage issue. Just a WAG.


Just read Mr. mv's post. YES. Try that first, then clean up the corrosion.
 
I would disconnect each rudder from the steering link and see if one or the other is the culprit. It may be neither and your problem is upstream. If you remove the linkage and both of them are locked up then I think it is time to pull the boat. Once disconnected they should free up. If so I would follow Comodave's course of action. My 1.5 cents.
 
moparharn said:
I would disconnect each rudder from the steering link and see if one or the other is the culprit. It may be neither and your problem is upstream. If you remove the linkage and both of them are locked up then I think it is time to pull the boat. Once disconnected they should free up. If so I would follow Comodave's course of action. My 1.5 cents.
Click to expand...

This. :iagree:

A lot of other parts of the system (linkage, hydraulic ram, hydraulic pump, etc.) could be locked up making you think it is the rudder(s). A stuffing box with packing inside doesn't really have much to "seize" IMHO.
 
Some verdigris is normal, yours looks a bit worse than I would like. But who knows how long it has been building up. In salt water it is very difficult to keep it gone completely. Some manufacturers have painted the bronze fittings with clear Alwgrip or the like to try and stop it but it isn’t usually something to really worry about unless it is stopping the rudders from turning. But as mentioned it could even be the hydraulic system causing your problem. I like the idea of pulling the cross tie bar and see if one or both will turn.
 
Thanks guys. Boat has been in the water for 2 1/2 years. Everything including bottom paint was fresh.

I was watching the linkages as my wife moved the wheel and I could see it straining and binding. I’ll definitely take it apart tonight and see if it’s 1 or both that are seized.
 
Pulling the tie bar is easy to do and will tell you a lot as to where the problem is. Keep us informed.
 
If I ever saw that kind of corrosion on any bronze fitting in my boat, I'd have the take a while to recover from hyperventilating before I could even begin to form a plan. Personally, I'd be heading to the travel lift under tow to have the rudders removed for shaft inspection and probable replacement of the packing assemblies.

If you elect to clean that mess off there and actually see solid bronze, you should hammer test the fittings before proceeding. This is not a big honking whack but rather a careful taping trying to detect the soundness of the metal. If you get a thud instead of a "tink," return to paragraph one above.

Sorry for your troubles.
 
Will do. At dinner. We’ll get the kids to bed and then I’ll start working on it
 
Should I grab some PB blaster?
 
I don’t see that it will hurt anything except maybe damage the packing. Probably not, but I would use it as a last resort. I don’t know if it will hurt the packing or not.
 
I would certainly soak them well with nut buster or a mixture of A.T.F. and Acetone. Try working on the rudders with a wrench or "cheater pipe"

pete
 
boathealer said:
A lot of other parts of the system (linkage, hydraulic ram, hydraulic pump, etc.) could be locked up making you think it is the rudder(s). A stuffing box with packing inside doesn't really have much to "seize" IMHO.
Click to expand...

Would be unusual for both rudders to jam at once due to stuffing box. Jam is related to linkage. 1) Disconnect hydraulic ram, attempt to turn. 2) Disconnect wire cable, attempt to turn.

At some point I would wire brush the bronze and I would repack the stuffing box.
 
PB Blaster won't hurt. And it might help. I zoomed one Pic that shows you may have done interference whether the shaft goes into stuffing box. But as someone else said, there's not much in there to seize. And the mechanical advantage for steering is huge.

Some vinegar and a wire brush will help clean up and give better visibility. The corrosion looks a bit advanced as Rgano observed. Andl I would definitely follow his advice about small taps with a hammer - mallet would be better.

Once you get this stabilized, suggest finding a good marine electrician. You may have some stray current issues.

Peter
Screenshot_20210227-183230.jpeg
 
Hey if you guys look closely you can see the bolts are twisted on one of the boxes.
 
Steve91T said:
Hey if you guys look closely you can see the bolts are twisted on one of the boxes.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. You could be right. Wouldn't be the first time someone cranked down on a bolt to stop the seeping.
 
Steve91T said:
Hey if you guys look closely you can see the bolts are twisted on one of the boxes.
Click to expand...

Maybe, my eyes can’t see it due to all the verdigris. I would clean it up and then see what you can find out.
 
While you're working on the symptoms, the rudder and stuffing, don't forget there's a cause you're not aware of. You need to get a marine electrician to go over the entire boat and look for stray current and other issues. Otherwise, you'll have other surprises in the future. Something took place and caused all this.
 
BandB said:
While you're working on the symptoms, the rudder and stuffing, don't forget there's a cause you're not aware of. You need to get a marine electrician to go over the entire boat and look for stray current and other issues. Otherwise, you'll have other surprises in the future. Something took place and caused all this.
Click to expand...

Thought so. Quick question, is this something I can poke around with a multimeter and at least get an idea of what’s going on?
 
I had a rudder get really stiff once, but it was a not the stuffing box causing the issue but rather the bearing atop the rudder table. In order to tell which rudder it was, I disconnected the linkage and found one free as a bird while the other could barely be moved using a six-foot 2X4 as a pry bar.

Cleaning your bronze up could include a small hand wire brush and some vinegar. PB blaster might help at some point, but either way, the packing is going to need replacement.
 
Really hard to tell what’s going on there, as others have noted but I wouldn’t be too alarmed by the green yet. My bronze stuffing boxes looked at least as bad, but it was mostly verdigris and not wasted metal. I had the yard remove them and they cleaned up beautifully. I also had them drop and inspect the shafts and therein were the real problems. The shafts were significantly crevice corroded from oxygen starvation inside the stuffing boxes. Took them to a well pump machinist who sprayed them with inconel and machined them back to spec. You might consider having them properly inspected next time your out of the water.
 

Attachments

  • D0891447-1710-4B21-9CE0-675BAFC6ACE7.jpeg
    D0891447-1710-4B21-9CE0-675BAFC6ACE7.jpeg
    168.6 KB · Views: 22
  • 214A2D0E-FD84-4981-9158-4E35080226E1.jpg
    214A2D0E-FD84-4981-9158-4E35080226E1.jpg
    123.6 KB · Views: 21
  • 0811E3D1-F6DC-44B5-847D-6A7C5847E186.jpg
    0811E3D1-F6DC-44B5-847D-6A7C5847E186.jpg
    67.8 KB · Views: 20
  • 81C99B70-678E-463D-A749-D14F58CDD01E.jpg
    81C99B70-678E-463D-A749-D14F58CDD01E.jpg
    119.3 KB · Views: 19
Steve91T said:
Thought so. Quick question, is this something I can poke around with a multimeter and at least get an idea of what’s going on?
Click to expand...
If it's possible to diagnose with a multi meter, let me know. Not my string suit. My understanding is it takes reference cells into the water to measure potential. It's why a good electrician vs just a mechanic is needed

Peter
 
I would disconnect the linkage from the rudder stock and see if it is actually the rudders or stuffing box. Work back from there. I also agree with the others, you have a separate, but maybe related issue going on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Lucky Chucky
Abt stabilizers
Replies
2
Views
380
twistedtree
twistedtree
Acdfpic
What does it mean to be a boater?
Replies
12
Views
1K
sobiecki
S
Mac2
LifePO4 Battery storage voltage
Replies
4
Views
354
twistedtree
twistedtree
MVCalypso
Oil analysis lab recommendation?
Replies
22
Views
2K
MVCalypso
MVCalypso
David Hope
Bahamas- Trip Advise
Replies
8
Views
1K
HalcyonDays
H

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom