We got waked...

We were waked in San Diego Bay by four Navy Dauntless patrol boats in succession, and took a beating. We were making eight knots and they were all ahead flank, passing us on our port quarter. No physical damage but it upset the Sicilian who had the con. E-mailed the Navy PIO, and got a response the next day. Let's see what happens.

ancora said:

We were waked in San Diego Bay by four Navy Dauntless patrol boats in succession, and took a beating. We were making eight knots and they were all ahead flank, passing us on our port quarter. No physical damage but it upset the Sicilian who had the con. E-mailed the Navy PIO, and got a response the next day. Let's see what happens.

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Don't you hate that. Everything gets thrown around. I always used to keep a weather eye out for that, especially as in our bay, with often narrow channels and little room to move, and which magnifies wakes.

If I saw fast boats approaching, I'd assume they wouldn't do the decent thing, all too often the case, so I'd always bear away, and then turn bow on in idle and just wait for the planers to pass. Always appearing to be blithely unaware of the havoc they can cause, because it all feels sooo smoooth to them up in their flybridge, doing 20kn plus..!

Peter B said:

Don't you hate that. Everything gets thrown around. I always used to keep a weather eye out for that, especially as in our bay, with often narrow channels and little room to move, and which magnifies wakes.

If I saw fast boats approaching, I'd assume they wouldn't do the decent thing, all too often the case, so I'd always bear away, and then turn bow on in idle and just wait for the planers to pass. Always appearing to be blithely unaware of the havoc they can cause, because it all feels sooo smoooth to them up in their flybridge, doing 20kn plus..!

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Out of curiosity, what would you prefer us faster boats to do? Generally I just trim way down for a moment when passing while on plane. I lose 3/4 of a knot and flatten my wake significantly. To make less wake by slowing down, I have to be doing less than 7 kts (which often means not passing).

rslifkin said:

Out of curiosity, what would you prefer us faster boats to do? Generally I just trim way down for a moment when passing while on plane. I lose 3/4 of a knot and flatten my wake significantly. To make less wake by slowing down, I have to be doing less than 7 kts (which often means not passing).

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To be honest, I don't know. I hear what you are saying about the practicality of coming down off the plane to pass being not really feasible, but in more open waters there is usually space to give us slow-pokes a wide berth and reduce the wake to much less by the time it hits us, and giving time to at least turn from full beam on. The rules say to not pass on the plane closer than 30metres, I think.

The real problem is when, like I described in our bay with lots of channels, there is not the room to do that. Hence the tactic of the slow boat turning into the wake wave bow on, at idle speed, or nearly so anyway.

Actually funny though it may sound, and it would be frowned upon anyway, but giving a brief blast on the horn would help. Because it would alert a slow boat ahead that you're coming though, and give time to take evasive measures.
The worst scenario is when you are caught unawares, and unable to adopt the tactic I just described, so that all hell breaks loose, because you take, what by then is quite a large wave, beam on.

I believe from comments I've seen on this subject, that many call up on VHF to warn of the proposed overtake there in the US, but this convention is virtually never followed over here for some reason. In over 16 years of boating out here in Moreton Bay I never heard such a warning of an overtake given over the VHS, which I usually had on ch 16, the recognised calling channel.

Maybe that is something our boating fraternity should push for more strongly..?

Under the US Inland Rules, an overtaking vessel is required to sound one short blast if overtaking the other vessel on it's starboard side, or two short for port. International Rules it's two prolonged blasts followed by the same signals. Or do it via VHF. So you should sound the horn even though the other guy probably won't know what it means. At least you woke him up and he knows you're coming. Hardly anyone does it though.

I think I was passed by those same boats on Saturday. It was a bit if a roll. But many other boats were out there as well causing lots of wakes. Wakes are part of boating . It doesn't bother me unless I am at an anchorage and am waked by a 'large wake". again dinghy wakes don't bother me at anchorage either.

I cruise in a 42 GB EU trawler. In response to your question about what to do?
If you can, give a wider berth. Put a little more distance between you and a trawler, which tends to roll.

What is frustrating to me is when another vessel, whether approaching or overtaking, does so too close to make adjustments. If there’s room please take advantage of this & give a wider berth.

Kind Regards,

Kevin

My boat on plane throws less of a wake than slowing down and plowing the water. The problem is that when on plane on a smaller wake footprint, to the other boats who aren't aware of this phenomena you appear rude. But if I slow down my wake is actually worse.

rsn48 said:

My boat on plane throws less of a wake than slowing down and plowing the water. The problem is that when on plane on a smaller wake footprint, to the other boats who aren't aware of this phenomena you appear rude. But if I slow down my wake is actually worse.

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Yes, with a truly planing boat, this is true, but with most larger vessels being semi-planers, not so much...

However, I agree that unless they come right down to hull speed, it doesn't make much difference just slowing a bit. So, that's why giving the widest possible separation is best - that or warning that the pass is on, so they can take the sort of evasive preparation I alluded to in my post #4 above.

When we were coming up the Tenn-Tom waterway my captain made a serious point to slow down to no wake EVERY time we saw a smaller boat (mostly Jon boats), no matter how far off. I asked him if that was really always necessary when the river was wide. He just showed me a photo of where someone had shot a crossbow through the hull once.

I agreed completely.
BD

Totally understand the problem. If at all possible the best solution is putting more distance between you and the other vessel. Distance gives the slower trawler ( or sailboat) time to react and take measures to steal into the wake. Too close and there’s no time to quarter the wake.

jgwinks said:

Under the US Inland Rules, an overtaking vessel is required to sound one short blast if overtaking the other vessel on it's starboard side, or two short for port. International Rules it's two prolonged blasts followed by the same signals. Or do it via VHF. So you should sound the horn even though the other guy probably won't know what it means. At least you woke him up and he knows you're coming. Hardly anyone does it though.

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I think if you read the COLREGS closely, you will see that these overtaking rules apply in narrow channels which San Diego Bay is not.

In our local bays, when I am running along at my usual 16 MPH and see a slow vessel ahead which I will soon overhaul, I sheer off a quart mile or so and just keep going.

In narrow waterways, the standard practice is for the overtaken boat to courteously slow to steerage as the faster boat approaches. The faster vessel similarly slows just as it approaches the slower vessel's stern passing at just a tad over the slower vessel's near idle speed before accelerating once well clear ahead. Everybody is happy.

It’s also good to remember that the captain of the vessel is responsible for the damage I could be caused by the vessel. there is liability involved. It’s important to understand The enormous energy that is transferred from the motion of the boat through the water and the water medium. This is the wake . A Normas Lee large mass moving it fairly high velocity and containing enormous amounts of kinetic energy.

cks said:

It’s also good to remember that the captain of the vessel is responsible for the damage I could be caused by the vessel. there is liability involved. It’s important to understand The enormous energy that is transferred from the motion of the boat through the water and the water medium. This is the wake . A Normas Lee large mass moving it fairly high velocity and containing enormous amounts of kinetic energy.

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I was hired by a certified subject matter expert to run back and forth in my Grand Banks 42 near a moored vessel (well isolated from any other vessels and piers) to create the largest wake I could while he videoed the event. It seems he had been hired by the boat owner because a person had been seriously injured in a fall aboard as the result of some PWC operators purposely circling viciously around the boat. The case was not successful. So liability, yes, when it can be proven in court which I am guessing is not often.

cks said:

I cruise in a 42 GB EU trawler. In response to your question about what to do?
If you can, give a wider berth. Put a little more distance between you and a trawler, which tends to roll.

What is frustrating to me is when another vessel, whether approaching or overtaking, does so too close to make adjustments. If there’s room please take advantage of this & give a wider berth.

Kind Regards,

Kevin

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I take the opposite view, if you're overtaking planing I like you to come by very close so the duration of the wake is tight and short. Of course if you're a very large fast boat and throwing a huge wake stand off! I will see it coming and maneuver to take it on the bow or stern (more so).

I think the duration has more to do with a bad roll than just the size of the wake, if I fall between them and roll it really tosses things around. It's nice to not have the chance to wallow before the next wake wave hits...

jgwinks said:

Under the US Inland Rules, an overtaking vessel is required to sound one short blast if overtaking the other vessel on it's starboard side, or two short for port. International Rules it's two prolonged blasts followed by the same signals. Or do it via VHF. So you should sound the horn even though the other guy probably won't know what it means. At least you woke him up and he knows you're coming. Hardly anyone does it though.

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I have heard it discussed that if the lead vessel does not respond, you are not supposed to overtake till agreement is reached.


That might be all day in some cases...

I always try to keep a lookout aft for boats overtaking us (I bought a camera & designated screen specifically to look behind us but never installed it because I like the large rear view mirrors at each helm) and definitely try to make radio contact to coordinate the passing event.
While nobody likes to be surprised by & inconvenienced by a wake, and if I'm reading your post correctly, these boats were military? You know what? I'm not going to complain one bit if I happen to be on the waters where the military or law enforcement is operating, be it heading to a crisis or just training maneuvers. I guarantee the crew onboard were aware of your 8 knot speed and made the decision to keep on getting it , short and sweet. I wouldn't expect or want them to do otherwise. I also guarantee the young crew onboard was full of piss & vinegar & watched with amusement as you negotiated their wakes. I would've done the same ,back in the day. My point is, I've got no problem with our military owning the waters they are patrolling, and if they happen to tip my tea while they're doing it, I consider it a small price to pay.

It would be nice is the overtaking boat would give a channel 16 warning, "Hang on to your wine glass."

You’re right about an overtaking boat. The roll will toss EVERYTHING. It’s awful. That’s why I like the distance. It gives me time to turn bow in. One has to turn at least 90 degrees to accomplish this. It takes time.

For those mentioning to give plenty of space, I agree. I always do when there's space to give (and if there's not, I'm often not on plane anyway). Whether I'm on plane or not, I go a bit nuts when someone passes needlessly close throwing a large wake.

With the mention of things like jon boats, anything small gets extra caution. There's always the mental assessment of whether there's a risk of injury, damage, etc. I'll often drop to dead idle for kayaks for that reason unless they're pretty far away or already coping with other waves from a similar direction and handling it well (in which case I'll still slow down, but maybe not quite to idle).

cks said:

You’re right about an overtaking boat. The roll will toss EVERYTHING. It’s awful. That’s why I like the distance. It gives me time to turn bow in. One has to turn at least 90 degrees to accomplish this. It takes time.

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Some places there's no room for a wide swing.


Sometimes putting the wake on the stern is easier.


90 degrees really isn't always necessary, or one needs to secure things better if it can't take some roll.

psneeld said:

or one needs to secure things better if it can't take some roll.

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Agreed. There's a big difference between a small wake and an unreasonable wake. Some people seem to complain if another boat causes them to roll 1 degree, which is a bit of a ridiculous expectation.

In response to the original post I suspect if you do get a response it will be along the lines that the ships were on a time sensitive patrol and therefore justified in making a large wake.

A couple of years ago I recall a CG boat blasting out of Block Island and creating all sorts of chaos to the folks who were rafted up.

That said give space if you can when passing.

rsn48 said:

My boat on plane throws less of a wake than slowing down and plowing the water. The problem is that when on plane on a smaller wake footprint, to the other boats who aren't aware of this phenomena you appear rude. But if I slow down my wake is actually worse.

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This is why when queried about a slow pass on the ICW I’ll ask that they go by up on plane and as fast as possible.
One, the wake is smaller and two, they pass by faster so I’m exposed to the wake for less time.

I have no "proof" of the following statement, but experience says it is likely true.

Many powerboaters do not really understand the impact that their wake can have on others, or how long a wake can "follow" your boat.(eg. like into a marina)

One time I was entering Dent Rapids at slack water (very short duration of slack and a very narrow pass). These rapids are very dangerous at full current with whirlpools, overfalls, etc. and currents exceeding 15 knots. A relatively large Rivieria passed me right at the narrowest part on full plane about 40 feet away with no warning. I had no room at all (nor time) to turn into the wake and had to take his 4-5 foot wall of water on the beam. It was not pleasant and we were lucky to avoid injury or damage. He could have slowed down for 2 minutes to allow us to get through the narrows and then passed when we would have had room to maneuver. My educated guess is that he just didn't think about it! Probably never entered his mind. Anyway, he never looked back to witness the results.
My 2 cents on how (in a perfect world) boaters should handle this, is where possible give a wide berth when overtaking. In a (prolonged) narrow waterway contact the boat ahead (VHF) and ask him to reduce speed to idle and then pass at a "low wake" speed like 5 knots (depends on the hull), and once past increase speed as desired. If the boat being overtaken doesn't agree with this plan (without a good explanation), then overtake as needed giving as wide a berth as possible. At least he would have been given the opportunity to experience a smaller wake and would have a warning that you are coming up on him.

However, this is probably not the real world, as I have never seen this done. (nor heard it on the radio)
Often a few seconds of thought and some consideration of others can go a long way.

I remember being anchored and seeing the Alaska Ferry go by several miles away. A half hour or more later we rolled violently as the wake finally arrived undiminished by the miles it had travelled.

Part of the problem with overtaking is that some boats do not monitor their VHF and if they do some are very reluctant to slow down enough for a low wake pass. I throw a pretty good wake at nine knots, but when I slow to under six where the wake is minimal I find myself sometimes barely creeping past.

Finally, if a boat does not have a legible and visible name so that I can hail them on the VHF or they do not answer a call to “vessel just passing marker 27......” then I just give the appropriate blast on the horn and come on by. I have 18x stabilized binoculars, but I’ll be damned if I can decipher some of the cartoon or italicized fonts on some boats sterns.

And don’t get me started on boats with the name only on the sides with much of it forwards of the maximum beam or with a tender blocking the name from the rear.

Lollygag1 said:

In response to the original post I suspect if you do get a response it will be along the lines that the ships were on a time sensitive patrol and therefore justified in making a large wake.

A couple of years ago I recall a CG boat blasting out of Block Island and creating all sorts of chaos to the folks who were rafted up.

That said give space if you can when passing.

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Dauntless patrol boats are 28 feet in length, not ships. If they were on a "time sensitive patrol" why did they have the time to do "doughnuts" in front of Seaport Village?

You did not mention the donuts part.

http://dbw.parks.ca.gov/pages/28702/files/DBW_ABCs_of_Boating_2017.pdf#ROTW

Based on the boating rules of the Sate of California, can you point out which specifically was violated?

My intention is not to be a jerk. However, I am pointing out that there is "Being in Violation", and there is "Being Rude". The latter sucks, but unless there is a regulation, ordinance or law, there is nothing prohibiting "I didn't appreciate that" behavior.

Unfortunately, that is the position most law enforcement and military organizations are going to take.

And before we start arguing about "wake"....there are really only two aspects of creating a wake.

1) A wake in a designated "No Wake" zone (No Wake does not need to be specifically posted, if, for example, there are published regulations such as a specific distance from an object, such as a beach, or a swimming area.

2) Damage resulting from wake. Potential for damage is not the same as incurring actual damage.

Lollygag1 said:

A couple of years ago I recall a CG boat blasting out of Block Island and creating all sorts of chaos to the folks who were rafted up.

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They would have too!! They don't sleep on the boat, or even near the boat. If they get called in the middle of the night, they need to wake up, get dressed, jump in a vehicle, take a drive from the CG station down to the dock at Champlins, fire up the boat, then creep around half of the mooring field, then out the channel in the salt pond, and out the main channel.

It would take them 30 minutes from the initial call until they got to the Red Buoy outside the breakwall if they went at headway speed.

When boats are dragging the harbor master and even BoatUS get up on plane in the salt pond.

Either last year, or the year before a captain on a 40-50 ft sportfish was having a heart attack. His crew came into the salt pond doing 25 knots all the way to the ambulance sitting at Paynes dock at 3:00am. We got the snot kicked out of us in the anchorage. One hell of a way to get woken up on a relatively glassy night.