Engine stopped mid passage. Why?

All the threads about redundancy got me thinking: how often does a diesel actually involuntarily stop running after its been running just fine for at least several hours?

Credible and first hand failures:

Jeff Merrill interviewed a Swede on a DD where the engine died in the middle of the pacific. Was a cracked fuel line. Took several hours but he scavenged one from elsewhere

I've had a water pump shaft break that disabled an engine

I've had an impellor shred that disabled an engine.

I've forgotten to turn fuel valves correctly and ran out of fuel (first date - she thought I did it on purpose - she's now my wife).

I've been on a power cat that picked up a crab trap. The whole line and wound the trap into his prop. That disabled the engine.

I've had electronic engines not run properly due to a bad connection in a control and hobble (but not disable) an engine.

All the above makes me wonder. What are the chances a diesel engine conks out mid ocean? With all the hand wringing over twins or a wing, what really is the risk, and to what extent can it be mitigated with spares or a small welder?

Peter

Fuel leaks and such are possible, but fairly rare. I'd say the vast majority of unplanned shutdowns I've seen on any type of engine have been either a cooling problem or other external factor that forced a shutdown. The engine just deciding it's no longer running is much less common and is usually fuel related when it happens, either contaminated fuel, failed pump, etc. My last engine shutdown was due to a transmission issue. The engine was perfectly fine, but there was no point in keeping it running as the transmission behind it had lost the ability to spin the prop shaft with no quick fix available.

Redundancy isn't always about just getting somewhere after a problem, sometimes it's about being able to isolate a problem (such as an unusable engine) and then fix it under controlled conditions, or have time to plan out a better fix, rather than having the issue be an emergency right from the start.

I have 3,000+ hours on my John Deere. The only thing that has stopped me so far (touch wood) was the mult pin plug mating with the computer. Resetting the plug solved the problem. The second time it happened, Corrosion X was applied to the connector. It hasn't happened again.

My thinking has evolved as far as outside of towing services or in remote locations where self sufficiency is the rule. Simply, twins that are completely 100% independent. If you're seriously going that far off the beaten path, you need to be able to cruise at normal speed with one of 2 engines.

Ted

That's one reason we wanted an older, mechanical engine. Except for start, alternator and gauges, all we have to worry about is fuel, air, oil, cooling, and compression!
The only time I ever had a diesel engine in a boat quit was for one of exactly the same reasons you stated above. I was drawing fuel from one tank, and returning excess to another tank . . . ran out of fuel with 300 gallons on board Completely pilot error, can't blame the engine for THAT one. . .

Several outboards threw rods. And a friends lobster boat twice due to running over trash. Not ordinary trash but a swimming pool cover and a large plastic trash can.

A hard to find air leak that is somewhat dependent on the amount of fuel in a tank can drive you nuts and randomly shut you down with a single numerous times a day......

A couple weeks ago there was a thread that included pressure plate failures in transmissions. Frankly, it never occurred to me. Before I venture too far, I will replace mine with a newer non-spring model.

I was just wondering about real world failures vs belt and suspenders approach to preventing failures. I totally understand the impact of a mid ocean failure. But what is the probability? Meteorite insurance?

Peter

If travelling in rough seas for some time the stuff stuck ti the bottom can get stirred up and plug an outlet or filter.

Had a freshly rebuilt high pressure fuel pump fail after 4 hours of running. But as Capital Ron says "well if anythings gonna happen its gonna happen out there"!

QSB 5.9, 5,500 miles not 1 missed RPM [ knock on fiberglass ]

Bottom mounting bolt of alternator worked itself loose, fan belt proceeded to turn itself into shredded pieces, resulting in a very overheated engine. I carry spare belts and tools to accomplish the repair but very lucky the head didn't warp. Temp was pegged at 250 for an unknown period of time.

Had the exit hose of my single engine's raw water pump burst two years back, but I was not running a slow boat with a low performance engine putting across a vast expanse. I was running my 6LPA Yanmar 315HP at 3400 RPM pushing around 35 gallons of seawater through its cooling system every minute. Tow BoatUS to the rescue for a two mile tow to home.

One my trawler with twins, I had a Borg Warner pressure plate give out - 200 yards from home.

Also on the twin had a starter burn up - 200 yards from the marina we were entering. New one arrived next day.

Had an air ingestion issue regularly stopping one engine for several months until I found/fixed. Until the fix. just turned on fuel transfer pump to pressurize it and ran fine for rest of the trips.

While on patrol in the ship I commanded in the Trust Territories of the Pacific we had our one and only diesel oil purifier crap out. None of our four D399 Cats quite due to un-purified oil from the day tanks (to which said purifier sent stored fuel from storage tanks - 96,000 gallons capacity), but being 1,000 miles from Guam, we worried about it a lot. In home waters around Hawaii, we had a cracked cylinder head in one engine, but there were three others available in that single prop diesel-electric setup; so we hardly noticed while the engineers swapped in another bulkhead spare.

Soo-Valley said:

If travelling in rough seas for some time the stuff stuck ti the bottom can get stirred up and plug an outlet or filter.

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If that happens then you will have two none working engines!

There's going to be a lot more engines failing at sea in the future. These new, electronically controlled engines are unreliable. Look at the trouble people with newer diesel pickups are having. Even my older diesel pu has been made unreliable because of the sensors. And there's no close by tow trucks in the ocean. That's why I have mechanical Detroits in my boat. If I was younger, I'd put a Detroit in my truck.

mvweebles said:

A couple weeks ago there was a thread that included pressure plate failures in transmissions. Frankly, it never occurred to me. Before I venture too far, I will replace mine with a newer non-spring model.

I was just wondering about real world failures vs belt and suspenders approach to preventing failures. I totally understand the impact of a mid ocean failure. But what is the probability? Meteorite insurance?

Peter

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In 25 years I’ve had one spring plate failure and two non-spring failures, both by Torflex where a bad batch of rubber delaminated from the attaching plate. Not sure any of them have a superior design or not.

mvweebles said:

I was just wondering about real world failures vs belt and suspenders approach to preventing failures. I totally understand the impact of a mid ocean failure. But what is the probability? Meteorite insurance?

Peter

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To understand probability you only have to look to Lindberg. Flying across the Atlantic one time on a single engine airplane (past the infant mortality period) is likely to have a good rate of success. The more complicated the plane becomes (requiring all systems to work versus redundancy) the greater the risk of failure. The more times that the single engine plane does the flight, the greater the likelihood of a failure.

So how many times you plan to wonder to the edge of the earth, probably has a lot to do with whether you need meteorite insurance.

Ted

Lepke, I love my twin Lehman 120s for the same reason, simple, no tearing your hair out trying to run down an electrical interface problem. However, the idea that there are going to be many at-sea failures in the future, I do not think so. I own a 2003 Chevy Duramax with 7,600 hours and 316,000 miles, all computer controlled with many sensors. Except for injector replacement, a wear item, this truck has never failed to start, with one exception and that was fuel supply related. One of my fuel filters was slightly loose and was sucking air but not leaking.

Lepke said:

There's going to be a lot more engines failing at sea in the future. These new, electronically controlled engines are unreliable. Look at the trouble people with newer diesel pickups are having. Even my older diesel pu has been made unreliable because of the sensors. And there's no close by tow trucks in the ocean. That's why I have mechanical Detroits in my boat. If I was younger, I'd put a Detroit in my truck.

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Lepke said:

There's going to be a lot more engines failing at sea in the future. These new, electronically controlled engines are unreliable. Look at the trouble people with newer diesel pickups are having. Even my older diesel pu has been made unreliable because of the sensors. And there's no close by tow trucks in the ocean. That's why I have mechanical Detroits in my boat. If I was younger, I'd put a Detroit in my truck.

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Certainly has been my observation, limited as it may be. The engine itself is probably rock-solid, but the gizmos providing micro-controls seem to be a bit fragile, especially in a marine environment. A friend's 2014 ~425 hp Cummins was hobbled with RPMs varying widely between 2500 and 1500. Cummins' tech diagnosed and replaced $5k worth of stuff over a couple visits before a crackerjack marine electrician finally found a small 4-pin connector in about 15-mins of troubleshooting. Watching it play out was sobering: I'd have zero chance of finding/fixing the problem. Yes, the boat kept going. But having the RPMs vary so widely was not at all reassuring.

Peter

Lepke said:

There's going to be a lot more engines failing at sea in the future. These new, electronically controlled engines are unreliable. Look at the trouble people with newer diesel pickups are having. Even my older diesel pu has been made unreliable because of the sensors. And there's no close by tow trucks in the ocean. That's why I have mechanical Detroits in my boat. If I was younger, I'd put a Detroit in my truck.

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I see no data on this. The diesel electronics seen to be rock solid . The failure is far more likely from a belt, pump or hose. Not a computer.

Ted wonder if that’s really true. Had my first new boat built for me. First year had more failures due to weird stuff than in all subsequent years. Bits of construction debris in the most unusual places acting as gremlins. Any seal or attachment or adhesive that could fail did. Each boat, even inside a given production run, is different. Over time you learn your boat in a very intimate way. You learn what to check or prophylactically inspect, service or replace before passage. Nothing teaches like experience. Personally feel more secure crewing or captaining a well maintained boat that does periodic regular passages in company of seasoned sailors then one that does it rarely.

I am protected by my Bermuda Triangle insurance policy. I bought it when I was in Bermuda. SMILE

O C Diver said:

To understand probability you only have to look to Lindberg. Flying across the Atlantic one time on a single engine airplane (past the infant mortality period) is likely to have a good rate of success. The more complicated the plane becomes (requiring all systems to work versus redundancy) the greater the risk of failure. The more times that the single engine plane does the flight, the greater the likelihood of a failure.

So how many times you plan to wonder to the edge of the earth, probably has a lot to do with whether you need meteorite insurance.

Ted

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I guess my point in asking is perception vs reality. Reality is that eventually, odds may catch up to you.....eventually. Walk around the streets of NYC and eventually something will fall and hit you on the head, meteorite or otherwise.....eventually (another crane recently toppled over). Does that mean you should wear a helmet at all times? Or not even go to NYC for fear of falling objects? Very low probability but very high impact. Yet we accept the risk without a second thought. Why are longer passages in boats different? Is it real or perception?

Peter

Failures and/or emergencies can happen to anyone, anywhere, anything at any time ....new or old.


At certain times they can be an inconvenient or fatal.


It's how they are dealt with that matters, whether you are new or experienced.


Success often means continuing on in obscurity or becoming famous, infamous or notorious.


Do anything long enough, often enough or challenging enough and your opportunity will come along.

When it comes to engine electronics, there are a few things that matter: pick something with a good track record so you know it'll be fairly reliable. And pick something where it's reasonable for you to obtain the diagnostic tools / software for. Being able to watch sensor values, etc. when something is acting up can narrow down where to look for the problem quite a bit.

As far as electrical reliability, as an interesting point, my boat has gas engines, so they're spark ignition. And they need power to run. Across about 1700 hours (times 2 engines) and 1400 hours on the generator in 35 years, it's never had an electrical or ignition related engine shutdown (according to my knowledge of the boat, my grandfather's old logs, etc.). There have been shutdowns due to cooling issues, a failed fuel pump, an oil cooler line leak, transmission issues, as well as limited power due to fuel or carb issues.

mvweebles said:

I was just wondering about real world failures vs belt and suspenders approach to preventing failures. I totally understand the impact of a mid ocean failure. But what is the probability? Meteorite insurance?

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Let's talk about mid ocean failure. From the POV of crew safety it doesn't seem to me to be a serious threat. Set a sea anchor, contact shore support and SAR on a satellite phone and take it from there. If you can't solve the issue the crew gets rescued and boat gets salvaged or replaced by insurance.

What am I missing? I can think of inshore situations where I'd be more concerned about failure - running an inlet, keeping clear of ships and barges, etc. In many respects mid ocean is the safest place to have a failure. Nothing bad is going to happen fast.

Jeff F said:

Let's talk about mid ocean failure. From the POV of crew safety it doesn't seem to me to be a serious threat. Set a sea anchor, contact shore support and SAR on a satellite phone and take it from there. If you can't solve the issue the crew gets rescued and boat gets salvaged or replaced by insurance.

What am I missing? I can think of inshore situations where I'd be more concerned about failure - running an inlet, keeping clear of ships and barges, etc. In many respects mid ocean is the safest place to have a failure. Nothing bad is going to happen fast.

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That's my attitude as well. A failure in crowded waters is more likely to be time-critical where the advantage of maintaining steerage immediately (twin engines) while you figure out the problem is much greater. In the middle of nowhere, the failure may be a big deal in the end, but figuring it out isn't as time critical.

Jeff F said:

Let's talk about mid ocean failure. From the POV of crew safety it doesn't seem to me to be a serious threat. Set a sea anchor, contact shore support and SAR on a satellite phone and take it from there. If you can't solve the issue the crew gets rescued and boat gets salvaged or replaced by insurance.

What am I missing? I can think of inshore situations where I'd be more concerned about failure - running an inlet, keeping clear of ships and barges, etc. In many respects mid ocean is the safest place to have a failure. Nothing bad is going to happen fast.

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Not all rescues are successful.... partly due to where (climate and time to rescue) and whether an injury occurring during breakdown is life threatening.

psneeld said:

Not all rescues are successful.... partly due to where (climate and time to rescue) and whether an injury occurring during breakdown is life threatening.

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Agreed. But if the crew is not in immediate danger the odds of a successful rescue go up. Crew should be comfortable and secure drifting offshore with a good sea anchor waiting for rescue.

It would be interesting to know the rate of failure (break down) and or loss (sinking) of <60' ocean crossing vessels. Can't say as I'm real interested in waiting days or a week for a tow.

Ted

two times that I can remember my engines shutting down were due to electrical issues with the electronic controls. In the future will only have pure mechanical engine, even on a new build.