Negotiate or Not

• At the very least, given the cutlass bearings, and engine mounts, along with existing vibrations . . . you probably need to have the shafts removed and inspected for true and wear around cutlass and packing. Worst case: need new shafts. Best case, you pay for inspection and all is well. Get estimate for replacing cutlass bearings and inspection of shafts. Ask for 100%. Figure on eating the cost of new shafts if needed.
• Soft spot in fly bridge: Get estimate, ask for 100% of estimate. (It'll cost more, but at you're getting part of the way there. Do the work yourself if you are up to it.)
• Stern thruster, I'd go with half the price of a new one. Then decide if you even need it.
• Engine mounts: 100% of cost of replacement and realigning engines.

IMHO the rest of the items are housekeeping, and general maintenance. I think you are looking at North of $15k. Only you can decide if the price is worth it. Instead of looking at reductions from asking price, or agreed price, you've received good advice to ask yourself what the boat is worth TO YOU.
One last note. If any of the above items were disclosed in the ad, or by the seller prior to accepting your offer, than you probably won't have much luck getting the owner to reduce price based on survey findings.
Last last note: I would not accept the owner accomplishing the repairs on his own. I would want to control the repair process, AND the standards to which the repairs would be accomplished.

Last Last LAST item: Understand that there are going to be items missed by ANY survey. If they are not LARGE items, go out and purchase a lottery ticket, but it doesn't matter if you win, as you've ALREADY won the survey lottery!
Good luck in your negotiations!

Watching the progression of opinions on this thread decline reminds me of the old Muppets skit with the two old guys in a balcony box over a play or similar

https://youtu.be/NpYEJx7PkWE

For the record, negotiate. Given the unpredictable nature of repairs, if have the owner consider the repairs but by a reputable yard.

Good luck. Nice model boat. Not sure this is the right example. Depends on your aptitude and appetite.

Peter

MAYBE get a second survey and compare the two?

mvweebles said:

Watching the progression of opinions on this thread decline reminds me of the old Muppets skit with the two old guys in a balcony box over a play or similar

https://youtu.be/NpYEJx7PkWE

For the record, negotiate. Given the unpredictable nature of repairs, if have the owner consider the repairs but by a reputable yard.

Good luck. Nice model boat. Not sure this is the right example. Depends on your aptitude and appetite.

Peter

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Gives me an idea for the COVID thread!

Menzies, i like your response.!

menzies said:

Gives me an idea for the COVID thread!

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But but but, my boat does not have Covid. It was tested.

Word of advice, "There will always be another boat, maybe even better."

We all want a boat we can step on board, fill with fuel, food, water and head out. (Plus a wide selection of spare parts and tools)
Yours example is not one of these boats.

I still remember picking up my N46. We went from LI to FL with fuel, water food, 2 screw drivers, pliers, a couple of adjustable wrenches. Ran the Lugger WOT all the way when outside.
Not a lick of trouble.
Oh for the good ol'days

Juliet 15 said:

I absolutely would walk away unless the seller dropped it to a price that made it a steal, something below 100k. There's a TON of things wrong you and your surveyor are unaware of. My concern with what we do know is the possibility of some kind of un-repaired underwater strike.
-Prematurely worn cutlass bearings
-Engine motion visible
-Leaking "dripless" shaft seals
-Prematurely failed engine mounts.

Those things spell a lot of money and time, aside from the laundry list of other items the surveyor found. There are other boats available that people have loved and cared for. My 2 cents: Wait for one.

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I agree.

rgano said:

On the face of it, the vessel does not appear to have been well cared for. How much did the surveyor NOT find? Are you handy and willing to deal with all that, or do you want a boat ready to go?

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Good point. Although I thought I was buying a boat "ready to go" the surveyor missed a few things, some small, some not so small. Safe to assume that there will be some things that were NOT found.

Seems to me that the dripping shaft seals, the vibration, the bad motor mounts, and worn cutlass bearings are all a related problem! Bad motor mounts could well have caused the other three problems.
As far as the deck problem goes-- those kinds of problems will ALWAYS TURN OUT TO BE LARGER THAN ANTICIPATED!

What about financing?

If this guy were to try to finance his purchase of this boat and let's say it needed a total of $35K of work to make it seaworthy, how is he supposed to come up with the necessary cash if the finance company will only cover the value of the boat at purchase? What do most people do?

The seller gets the repairs done-- and adds some amount to the purchase price which is financed...

I wouldn't negotiate for a repair. Seller could find the cheapest repair person, the cheapest parts, or the cheapest way to repair something to make it 'acceptable'.

I would negotiate a reasonable amount off of the offer price. The offer was under the assumption that these were suitable based on time of service. However, the seller doesn't owe you a new boat either. I'd probably get quotes for repairs, then reduce the offer by 75% of the cost of repairs, showing you're taking on some of the cost yourself. This should be considered reasonable.

Negotiation on problem areas

I must agree. With all that has been stated
I am rather shocked to hear that a 2006 vessel would have these problems. Yes, I would contact an independent surveyor and see what he says
If the owner wants to sell it, you will reach a negotiated price.

Good offer

I believe that's a generous offer.

2006 MS 34 shouldn't have those kinds of problems

We have a 2005 MS 34. It has none of the issues mentioned in the survey so I can only assume the 2006 you're looking at was not well maintained and may have, as some in this thread have suggested, been the victim of a hard grounding. The asking price seems very high for that boat in its apparent condition.

It doesn’t really matter how long the list is. This is a negotiation not a beauty contest. The OP has two choices

1) Walk away and lose all the time and money he spent getting this far

2) Offer a lower price. Most sellers and all brokers expect to discount some post survey. At a minimum to pay the cost of the survey. For most, a maximum discount might be 10% erode they put it back on the market. Which would be about $120k.

You don’t have to emotionally justify it. Don’t’ insult the owner by calling his boat ugly (e.g. poorly maintained). Engine mounts and cutlass bearings are often changed at 10 years. And you get lots of conflicting advice about when they should be changed from different mechanics. Just show them the list of things and ask for $117k (10%). See if they come back at $120k. If you really like the boat and they come back at $125 I’d take that over losing it.

SILENTKNIGHT said:

So my hull survey came back for a 2006 Mainship 34T

here is what came back as to big $$$ issue

1. Flybridge deck soft spot 3sq feet. i plan to negotiate that right away, and prefer Marina/broker to give me estimate 5-7k.

2. Both cutlass bearing are shot, do i ask seller to fix ?
3. All motor mounts on both engines are shot. Do i ask seller to fix?
4. Both dripless shafts have small drip. Do i ask seller to fix?

are these items negotiable or just wear & tear that seller neglected to do.

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Hi there. I see a lot of opinions on this boat and what you should or should not do. Get an estimate or estimate the cost of each item. Talley it up. Compare against what you think the market is and what your willing to pay for it. Most of the items I see fall into electrical minor issues. Light bulbs, some switches, a float switch, AC cooling pump. There are all items which wear and need regular maintenance. The seller did not want to fix everything to make it pristine working condition. Are you handy and can you test an electrical circuit and change a light bulb or change a float switch? The misc. safety equipment you would replace anyway. Shame on both the broker for not asking to seller to update all safety equipment. However, in the end the sales price of a prudent buyer will deduct all these things. Or just go buy and or fix the items which are about $2K.

The question my wife asked me when we purchased our $152K sailboat was are you willing to walk for a $5K difference. We were down to $5K difference. We had gone back and forth several times on various items. We bought her 23 years ago and still have her. So, I've been in and out of yards for a couple of decades.

Onto the big items:
1. Soft deck on bridge area. Get 2 quotes. Deduct that from the price and go have it fixed. These are expensive repairs. You may want require the seller to fix it and or have a hold back on the contract subject to the repairs. So, $6K on the 3 sq Ft. fiberglass repair. That is 48 hours at $125/hour. No way your going to get 3 sq ft repaired for $6k. More like $12-15K. Get yards who have experience with soft fiberglass estimate and sound the area. There could be rot under it, the core may have to dry. On and on. Don't believe the broker on any cost estimates like this one, get a reputable yard to estimate repairs. Now that it is know it will have to be disclosed to the next potential buyer.

2. Shaft cutlass, is very common to delay fixing. The owner may have just been living with it and caused accelerated wear on the engine mounts. Once wear gets past a certain point the wear accelerates. How many hours a year for the last 4-5 years? The real question is did the shafts get damaged. If the shafts are damaged and require repair, welding or polishing etc that is more money. Are there intermediate or upper shaft bearings? If so that would be 2 per shaft. Get 2 quotes. The big big item is if the shafts have to be replaced. Could be $5K each or more. SS shafts are expensive.

3. Get two quotes on the engine mounts. Subtract it as deferred maintenance.

4. A related item. The additional shaft vibration will cause the PSS shaft bellows to go bad.

5. The stern thruster should be operational. Get 2 quotes on the repair and deduct.

6. Group all the misc. bulbs, float switches and electrical into a bucket. Negotiate that price and deduct it. Figure 2 hours each for diagnosis and 2 hours for repair. Then estimate a bucket price, deduct it. These are deferred maintenance. Not a sign of someone who keeps their boat in tip top shape. If they are asking near market price all of the systems and safety equipment should work.

I agree the engine mounts and cutlass bearings are related. Overall I do not see a lot of major items except for the 1. soft fiberglass, 2. (motor mounts, cutlass bearings, PSS all related) 3. Stern Thruster. (A big one.).

Ok that is my .05 cents worth. Good luck in your purchase.

John

Walk Away

This sound like a boat that could have additional problems and/or was not well maintained. There are other well maintained boats in good condition out there.

Shrew said:

I wouldn't negotiate for a repair. Seller could find the cheapest repair person, the cheapest parts, or the cheapest way to repair something to make it 'acceptable'.

I would negotiate a reasonable amount off of the offer price. The offer was under the assumption that these were suitable based on time of service. However, the seller doesn't owe you a new boat either. I'd probably get quotes for repairs, then reduce the offer by 75% of the cost of repairs, showing you're taking on some of the cost yourself. This should be considered reasonable.

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That would be an EXTREMELY generous offer, especially since items like shafts, soft decks, etc rarely end up only costing what was estimated . . . so an offer of 75% of the estimate of repairs is probably REALLY only 50% of the cost of the ACTUAL repairs. . . . .
I'd have to either really, REALLY want that boat, or know that I could do most/a lot of the repairs myself . . . . Otherwise, walk, and find another boat . . .

$130K was your first offer, now work you way down to $120K for all the work required. The soft spot is easy to repair if you have access from below, the rest is just parts replacement.

Sieben said:

There could be rot under it, the core may have to dry. On and on. Don't believe the broker on any cost estimates like this one, get a reputable yard to estimate repairs. Now that it is know it will have to be disclosed to the next potential buyer.

John

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John, a very concise post! I agree with everything you stated except what I highlighted in red above. This is not a real estate transaction. To my knowledge, there is NO requirement anywhere in the 50 US states for a boat seller to legally disclose problems with a boat he is selling. I may be wrong, but if don't thinks so. If I am, someone please let me know and quote the requisite law.
I have personally seen several, really MANY boats for sale that had known issues, that the sellers knew about, and that the seller's broker knew about, and were NOT disclosed to potential buyers. I almost made an offer on one that the sellers broker swore up and down was in perfect shape. I specifically asked about the four fuel tanks. The broker swore to me that they were all in perfect shape, and functional, no leaks, etc
We even made an offer that the broker refused to even convey to the seller, saying "He would never accept that, so I'm not going to even waste his time presenting the offer!" Anyway, about 3 months later, I chased down the seller himself. Turns out the two aft fuel tanks had been disconnected 20 years before when THEY purchased the boat, because they LEAKED! He knew it, the broker KNEW IT, had actually been given a statement of the few things that were wrong with the boat, read it, and told the seller that he didn't need it, and flat lied about it to us. We didn't make another offer on the boat as we had moved on to other things, but the seller ended up accepting an offer about a year later for 12% less than WE HAD offered, but the broker had never presented . . . We could have lived with the aft tanks being condemned, but we couldn't live with a broker who flat lied to us.
Everything ended well for us however, as we just closed this month on our new to us boat!

Independence

I looked at this boat ( I believe it is in Long Island)but passed because I wanted a lower station. This boat has been on the market for at least 2 years. Probably a reason. It was originally listed at close 160,000. Twin screw 34T is a little more scarce. Go with your gut if it does not feel right keep looking. I just bought a 34T in Nova Scotia I have not seen it in person.I was not able to visit because of COVID restrictions. I had two surveys and it is a one owner boat. Both surveys confirmed some issues and I made my decision based on this. It has been maintained by one yard for its life and I got to speak with them about it’s servicing. I know I am taking a gamble but I had reference of the broker and the owner who I have contact with. If I made a mistake I will be sure to post.

actually this is quite simple.
1) what is the boat worth to you?
2) What will it cost to professionally repair the soft deck, replace motor mounts, cutlass bearing and realign motors (add contingency here and use an independent respected yard for the quote)
3) subtract 2 from 1, buy boat.

Now that the survey is done, even if you walk, the owner must repair or will have to deduct cost of repairs from future sale price. My personal preference is to reduce the purchase price & have the repairs done under my supervision. Other buyers may not want the unknown of the contingencies that inevitably arise if they undertake the repairs (but by default, accept that the seller will try to get the repairs done as cheaply as possible).

Good luck, actually not that uncommon to get bad motor mounts, misalignment, shot cutlass bearings in a 2006.

What do you expect? An old boat in as-new condition? The seller isn't pretending to offer a new boat?

"My concern with what we do know is the possibility of some kind of un-repaired underwater strike.
-Prematurely worn cutlass bearings
-Engine motion visible
-Leaking "dripless" shaft seals
-Prematurely failed engine mounts."

Why would you make absurd assumptions?

Prematurely, dripless, underwater strike????

To the OP what does YOUR broker say? What does the yard Forman say? Double IT! For you to ask "should I TF"? You haven't done your homework, it's not OUR money or time. Good Luck

I am impressed with the detail in your survey report. I would hire this surveyor if I were buying another boat. When I purchased my 2004 MS 400 my surveyor and the mechanic I hired to survey the engine did not pick up on the fact that the motor mounts were shot. My mechanic pointed it out when I got the boat home. As I discovered, this in fact this is not unusual with Yanmar mounts. Yanmar recommends replacement every 5 years. I replaced mine last year on a single 370 Yanmar and it cost me around $2000. The mounts can cause misalignment and vibration so that could explain the cutlass bearings and shaft seal issues.
The surveyor did point out a number of other issues and I was able to negotiate to get some of the items repaired and a discount off the price for others. In the end, even with the previously undiscovered motor mount issues I feel like I got a fair deal on the boat and absolutely love her.
Good luck

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Every thing is negotiable!!!

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Ditto!

All price adjustments are dependent on how low the seller will go and how high the buyer will rise. ... Horse trading comes to mind!

Art said:

Ditto!

All price adjustments are dependent on how low the seller will go and how high the buyer will rise. ... Horse trading comes to mind!

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Negotiation Fun

Useless negotiation exchanges:
Buyer: What`s the least you`ll take
Seller: What`s the most you`ll pay
And afterwards:
Seller: I`d have taken less
Buyer: I`d have paid more
Rejections:
We spit on your offer
May the fleas of 1000 camels/dogs/horses infest your armpit

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Every thing is negotiable!!!

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It sounds like a big can of neglected worms. The price you pay for it is not the issue. It is the Total Cost of Ownership. They build boats every day!