Getting weird with my search

I find myself turning more and more to the great discussions on TF. Some really sharp / experienced minds!!

You may remember me - PNW cruiser type. Need to be able to single hand it, cruising comfort for 2-4, Champagne taste, beer budget, want a boat that does everything, blah, blah, blah.

I was pretty settled on a nordic tug 32 (smallest boat that fits our program), but after making a run at a couple of them I guess I am coming to the conclusion that I don't seem able to value them as high as the market. This is not a knock on these boats by any means. Probably more of a a knock on me! I have not ruled them out, and I will look at all of them that I can. And yes, I am trying to consider the "round trip cost" (retired bean counter here!)

I have begun to coax my mind into thinking more expansively. (Dual engine?, Less robust?, Bigger? Project? Downeast? Hard to buy? Hard to transport? etc.)

In that regard I present 5 boats to noodle on for your entertainment. Each has a "hitch" of some kind or another. I value your thoughts!

https://www.seattleyachts.com/used-yachts-for-sale/32-Pacific-3200-2000-PURA-VIDA/6901705_2/amp

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/albin-trawler-3718434/

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/nordic-tugs-42-3682760/

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/eastbay-extended-hardtop-3614155/

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/wilbur-34-weekender-3723565/

For me it's the Wilbur. The lines alone do it for me.

Rob

Start searching out the orphans. i.e. parameters rather than brands. All three of my boats were orphans.
Two 1 of a kinds and one of 3.

People are not looking for these and don't know what they are when found. They very often sell for much less than they are worth.

The Nordic is my favorite of the pack of course with the Albin trawler #2. I prefer a true separate raised pilot house with wing doors. Are you weighing the significantly higher monthly cost of 10 feet and/or twin engines? Over multiple years that can be significant. Also in some areas is more challenging to find a slip. Looks like you are considering significantly increasing your budget for the purchase? That opens up many more possibilities.

All nice boats.

My .02:

No outdrives! Don't do it!

We put an offer on a Alvin 32+2 but it fell through after learning the hull was cored below the waterline and seeing some signs of water intrusion. The newer ones, after 2001 I believe, don't have this problem

That eastbay is pretty flat underneath, if memory serves...

Lots of nordic tug there.

I'm with Rob: I'd vote for the Wilbur by a long shot.

First, all them are fine for the PNW. Some of them can go fast which interests me. The Nordic Tug makes me the most nervous as to hidden surprise but maybe they just want it gone now. You need to tour them all and tell us which one fits you. The older the boat the more challenges there will be in maintenance but many times its worth the trade off to get what you want.

Alaska?

I like the Sea Ranger.

I like most of them.
If it matters the Tug was in an active charter operation out of Juneau--not sure how long but is probably part of the reason for engine hours.

boatpoker said:

Start searching out the orphans. i.e. parameters rather than brands. All three of my boats were orphans.
Two 1 of a kinds and one of 3.

People are not looking for these and don't know what they are when found. They very often sell for much less than they are worth.

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I really like this idea. I "think" I am doing that somewhat. If you look at this post from 50,000 feet, and look at the boats I am referencing above you will see that they were not only parameter driven, but I have begun loosening my parameters, sometimes drastically. No one has said it yet, but these boats are vastly different in many respects. Any tips on how to change this up even more would be much appreciated. Some very cool looking boats you have there!!

Datenight said:

For me it's the Wilbur. The lines alone do it for me.

Rob

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I love the looks of that Wilbur (Wilbur the wilbur I think...) as well. In non covid times I would hop on a plane and have a look. Bringing her from Alaska to Seattle would be quite the shake down cruise.

We don't get a lot of downeast boats in the pacific NW and I am curious why not. They seem very well suited for cruising around here, and they are a very proven design. I can't tell you how many times a boat on the dock has caught my eye and, sure enough, it is a Duffy or the like.

Never been out on one though!

READY said:

The Nordic is my favorite of the pack of course with the Albin trawler #2. I prefer a true separate raised pilot house with wing doors. Are you weighing the significantly higher monthly cost of 10 feet and/or twin engines? Over multiple years that can be significant. Also in some areas is more challenging to find a slip. Looks like you are considering significantly increasing your budget for the purchase? That opens up many more possibilities.

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I think the Nordic is my favorite too. That particular one is a bit of an oddity. It has been for sale for a looooong time at a reduced price from what that size boat generally sells for. I have recently learned that it was in charter for a while. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some charter operators are very good at maintenance. Some of course aren't. As you (and increasingly I) know, these boats tend to hold their value and have a ready market, so something is probably amiss.

The separate raised pilot house and wing doors seem very important for single handing a boat like this. Unfortunately, that narrows the field significantly. In this post, I am trying to open my eyes (and mind) to other options that I may have overlooked.

I have considered carrying cost of course (retired bean counter, remember?). This is another parameter I am trying to loosen up as I try to think expansively.

Good point on the. I am pretty sure I can get a 40 in my home port, harder as we cruise around.

I was in the "smallest boat that fits our program" mode for a long time. It is still my instinct, but again - I am trying to expand my horizons.

Budget is somewhat flexible. I am trying to keep "roundtrip cost" somewhat in mind due to a pretty uncertain health future. Shipping to Seattle is what kills a lot of these boats in other parts of the country.

Because of our PM chats, I have looked at a few old Hattarases!

Gabe n Em said:

All nice boats.

My .02:

No outdrives! Don't do it!

We put an offer on a Alvin 32+2 but it fell through after learning the hull was cored below the waterline and seeing some signs of water intrusion. The newer ones, after 2001 I believe, don't have this problem

That eastbay is pretty flat underneath, if memory serves...

Lots of nordic tug there.

I'm with Rob: I'd vote for the Wilbur by a long shot.

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OK, We need to expand on a few of these. I know people generally carp about outdrives. I am floundering, salmon tell me what's up? Is it just the fact that they are low tolerance machines made of dissimilar metals sitting in salt water? What could possibly go wrong with that going on?

Do you know, are all albins < 2001 cored below the water line? This really does seem like a bad idea to me. Coming from sailboats, I am well aware of how these older boats end up in the landfill. Water intrusion = death by budget. You can't even burn 'em if they are wet!

Yes, lots of NT's in the PNW. No one ever wants to sell them. There seems to be some secret club where they are bought and sold. And yes, I am a member of PANTOA. (Owners Association.)

Talk to me about the flat eastbay., and how it is different than the Wilbur. We don't know much about Downeast boats around here, other than that they look good at the dock, and the owners seem pretty happy.

I really look forward to hearing the wisdom here!

tiltrider1 said:

First, all them are fine for the PNW. Some of them can go fast which interests me. The Nordic Tug makes me the most nervous as to hidden surprise but maybe they just want it gone now. You need to tour them all and tell us which one fits you. The older the boat the more challenges there will be in maintenance but many times its worth the trade off to get what you want.

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Thanks tiltrider - I see you are in Seattle too. OA 54. Wow, that is a lot of boat! Wondering where you keep her?

ktdtx said:

I like most of them.
If it matters the Tug was in an active charter operation out of Juneau--not sure how long but is probably part of the reason for engine hours.

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Thanks Ken - curious how you know she was in charter. I did a little "light internet stalking" and it didn't pop. Could have been a name change or somesuch. As I mentioned above, some charter operators take amazing care of boats, some don't. It has been for sale for a long time at a fairly reduced price so ??? (Could be as simple as covid+Alaksa in winter)

The Wilbur is nice. I have a particular fondness for the Nordic Tug. In my mind, they would be 1 and 2.

You're a bit all over the board on brand and build quality. An Albin is tough to compare to a Nordic Tug or a Grand Banks.

Greg if you have it I would share your list of must haves vs must not have. Examples are flybridge, twins, walk around berth, pilot house, cockpit, walk around side decks, galley location, price range, # of cabins and heads, water waste and fuel tank sizes, etc. Otherwise with the large universe of boats for sale you and the contributing forum members are unlikely to be able to narrow it down. It is very difficult to predict "round trip cost" but I have found as a general rule recognized brands/models of higher quality older boats bought at a good price and kept in good condition might take the lowest hit. In your accounting terms I guess it would be accelerated depreciation? But if the market tanks all bets are off.

JohnEasley said:

The Wilbur is nice. I have a particular fondness for the Nordic Tug. In my mind, they would be 1 and 2.

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Thanks John. I think that Wilbur is really interesting, particularly on the west coast. We really don't get them much around here.

Shrew said:

You're a bit all over the board on brand and build quality. An Albin is tough to compare to a Nordic Tug or a Grand Banks.

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Yep - I sure am. Kind of by design. As I mentioned above, I am purposefully trying to get out of my locked in attitude.

I was pretty fixated on having a blue water capable super tough sailboat at one point in my life. A broker I trust (Ha Ha, can't believe I typed that) who had watched us using our boat for about 5 years told me to really examine my needs case, and consider a catalina (which he did not sell btw) as a lower cost, easier to work on, perfectly competent coastal cruiser sailboat.) We ended up with a catalina 36 which has been delightful.

I fear that my Nordic Tug 32 obsession may be similar. Not knocking the boat at all, but I may be perfectly happy with one of it's lesser competitors. That is the concept I am noodling on. eg: I have heard that Mainships / Rangers / Albins etc are just too lightly built for our waters. I have also heard that they are fine, and that is completely BS.

I find that I learn a HUGE amount from reading a response on TW and glancing over to see what the poster is running, and from where. Obviously, we all tend to be boosters for the boat we have. If I see a mainship owner from Seattle who likes / hates the boat for the waters they are in, I am going to perk right up and listen.

Thanks for reading and commenting. I value all of the experience around here! (Uually...)

When ever you look at a boat, I suggest taking your mate to make sure there is enough clothing space, especially hanging locker space for HER clothes.
Also 2 heads if practical.... she will fill up all the storage with beauty supplies and special shampoo etc.
The AT34/36 storage shortage can be overcome almost except for the hanging closet. One SR, one head. If you buy one, I will give details on how I increased storage, except for the hanging closet space.
You want most storage, the AT41, 2 SR, 2 heads.
Each have separate shower stalls. To me, that is a major plus.
I would stick with one engine to make the engine access almost perfect.

READY said:

Greg if you have it I would share your list of must haves vs must not have. Examples are flybridge, twins, walk around berth, pilot house, cockpit, walk around side decks, galley location, price range, # of cabins and heads, water waste and fuel tank sizes, etc. Otherwise with the large universe of boats for sale you and the contributing forum members are unlikely to be able to narrow it down. It is very difficult to predict "round trip cost" but I have found as a general rule recognized brands/models of higher quality older boats bought at a good price and kept in good condition might take the lowest hit. In your accounting terms I guess it would be accelerated depreciation? But if the market tanks all bets are off.

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Good call. I had done that, and zeroed in on NT32 as just about the only boat that fit my criteria (A few customs and oddballs (Transpac Eagle 32 for example - 36 made) notwithstanding ): low windage / good visibility (which implies no flybridge and yes pilothouse), Single Diesel, bow thruster, <37 moorage length, little to no exterior teak, easy to single hand (which implies either doors in pilothouse on both sides or walkaround, or cockpit steering), tankage and living suitable for two for week or two at a time with occasional overnight guests, also quick and easy day tripping, economical to run and a smart bet on an economical round trip.

I totally agree that recognized brands/models of higher quality older boats bought at a good price and kept in good condition are usually what you want. Slower depreciation. That is why I was looking at "Ready"

There really are not very many of these available at the moment!

So... I am challenging myself to look hard at my MUST haves, and see if I can flex. eg: What about a double? Some really advantages there obviously. Maybe bigger, get new slip? Maybe smaller, which puts the Camano Troll back in the mix? You get the idea...

OldDan1943 said:

When ever you look at a boat, I suggest taking your mate to make sure there is enough clothing space, especially hanging locker space for HER clothes.
Also 2 heads if practical.... she will fill up all the storage with beauty supplies and special shampoo

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That is funny. She is pretty low maintenance. No exterior teak!

But...she works for Patagonia, so we do have an excess of outerwear on the boat. (Mine as well as hers) Fortunately, she is an expert at "displaying" it in a stack on the counter if needed.

If you are a guest onboard and get cold, we have been known to let you keep what you wear if it looks good on you! (Generally our kids...)

Greg,
You mentioned possibly now "considering" a twin engine boat. I caution, that almost all of the sub 40 foot boats I looked at that had twins had very cramped engine rooms with some servicing being next to impossible to do (unless you are a circus member or do this for a living ). On top of that, it doubles your maintenance (and repairs) costs for engines. Obviously there are some advantages that go with twins, I am just pointing out some issues that caused me great concern with them in this size range of boat.
As far as Nordics go, it is "interesting" how few are now for sale considering how many are "out there". I have never handled a NT 32, but I would expect them to be fairly easy to single hand due to the pilothouse doors, swim platform, and relatively low freeboard.

Good luck.

The Wilbur all day long! But, and it's a big but, a downeast boat typically does not have the livable space of a lot of other brands. This means storage as well as sit down & chill space. It's the reason I own a GB. The Eastbay is a really nice boat and will have a little bit more room than the Wilbur but still won't compare to a more traditional trawler or tug design. I'm thinking in the PNW you'll want good comfortable interior space simply for weather concerns. I'm in the NE so the season is short and we usually want to be outside so less interior is usually OK ... we use the flybridge on our GB36 everyday we're on board 'cause it's big and outdoors - cruising, sitting, drinking, napping, reading, etc.

Personally I'd steer clear of the charter vessel simply because it's got lots of hours and is for sale a long time at a depressed price ... suppose it could be a good deal for a DIYer.

And since you're acting openminded, keep looking!

I'm surprised you haven't considered an American Tug 34 (or perhaps you have). Older one is in the same price range as some of those you list, and seems to meet all of your criteria.

Greg,
For me, for use in the PNW, I would avoid the Wilbur. Almost half of the boat is devoted to the cockpit (exterior) area. While this could be a nice feature, it rains enough here even in the summer, that I would put more value on interior space. It is a balance though, as part of the reason most people boat is enjoying the outdoor aspects of it.
Just personal opinion. An NT 42 is much, much bigger boat compared to the 32, and single handing would be a bit more difficult, although Sue on the forum does it.
I know an NT 37 owner who has over 10,000 hours on his Cummins engine, but he has been totally on top of all maintenance. However, a charter boat, located in Alaska (in winter) does complicate things for that boat.
Good luck

My old boat has thrusters both ends, I can walk it sideways at the dock in tight places safely. With lines and cushions set up, means I'm not dashing around. Means I don't need doors port/starbd. That keeps your boat choices broader.

Re: Being all over the board on brand and build quality.

Greg Salish Cruiser said:

Yep - I sure am. Kind of by design. As I mentioned above, I am purposefully trying to get out of my locked in attitude.

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I think you are on the right track (course?)! Many folks do get laser focussed on particular manufacturers and miss otherwise great opportunities on "lesser known" brands.

My first liveaboard was a custom William Garden designed Gulf 40 sailboat. She was completely overbuilt and beautifully finished. But because she wasn't a familiar "name brand", she cost less than half that of a comparably equipped (and often lesser quality build) 40-foot pilothouse sailboat.

After that experience, I was very open to ANY boat, as long as it met my criteria and budget...

First, I'm a bit of a speed freak. Interestingly I didn't start out this way but in refit I made decisions that impacted how fast my boat would become without realizing it. My boat pre-refit could go about 12 knots top. When I increased the engine size I was aiming to hit about 18 knots, but instead turned it into a 30 knot cruiser. Yes it burns substantially more fuel.

Most of the areas in Washington State (ocean) and coastal BC have destinations that after a "hop" provide multiple opportunities. These hops are repetitious and the more times I do them the more I want to get it over with and get to the area I want to slow down and cruise.

Also when I am headed to the Broughtons, I either go through "rapids" or I go Johnstone Strait. Averaging 22 knots, I can leave Comox in the morning at 8:00 AM and be at Echo Bay in the Broughtons by 1:00 PM that same day. If I instead go through the rapids I have enough power to cheat a little bit on the currents.

I like to have the choice of fast or slow. My credit card company always votes slow. I like the Eastbay Extended hardtop. The boat has a lot of power. My one whiney comment on boat specs is why don't they list cruising and WOT speed and fuel consumption on both. Seven hundred horsepower should move that boat along briskly.

First the hard top, the one surprise is that there are no solar panels on top of the hard bimini and area. That would be the first change I'd make. The second change would be to add some soft roll down side walls for the cockpit in the assumption you aren't going to be just a fair weather sailor. Its nice to have the cockpit area in the rain.

After writing all of this, I just noticed the back seems to be canvas, if it isn't - great - but if it is that would put a damper on this otherwise great boat. The reason is that I do a lot of out of season cruising and that boat would be colder due to the canvas. However, it might even be worth the money to put a "hard" wall in.

firehoser75 said:

Greg,
You mentioned possibly now "considering" a twin engine boat. I caution, that almost all of the sub 40 foot boats I looked at that had twins had very cramped engine rooms with some servicing being next to impossible to do (unless you are a circus member or do this for a living ). On top of that, it doubles your maintenance (and repairs) costs for engines. Obviously there are some advantages that go with twins, I am just pointing out some issues that caused me great concern with them in this size range of boat.
As far as Nordics go, it is "interesting" how few are now for sale considering how many are "out there". I have never handled a NT 32, but I would expect them to be fairly easy to single hand due to the pilothouse doors, swim platform, and relatively low freeboard.

Good luck.

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I hear you on the engine room situation... I think I am chasing a unicorn though!