That is a complaint I've heard frequently over the decades.
Never from a client but only from sellers and yacht brokers and I'm a little proud of that.
It also shows I have some skill in weeding out undesirable clients.
Live aboard haters
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
That is a complaint I've heard frequently over the decades.
Never from a client but only from sellers and yacht brokers and I'm a little proud of that.
It also shows I have some skill in weeding out undesirable clients.
O C Diver
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Really?
Did you happen to look at BP's survey pictures?
I don't think 1 in 3 boat owners has a clue about boat safety. I think if you surveyed 100 boats that were 20 years old, you would find 20% that had atleast 1 seacock that was frozen open, 1 of the bilge pumps that didn't work, and 1 of the fire extinguishers out of test. Your average boat owner is focused on what makes the boat go, not what keeps it from sinking or burning up.
Ted
mvweebles
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Some really good information on the technicalities of surveys. Too bad it's buried in a thread on liveaboard haters. 200 posts with nary a mention of the original topic. Fascinating.
Peter
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Yep, some posts seem to take on a life of their own, depending on the agenda of the posters. Kind of like asking a politician a question and you get an answer totally unrelated to the original question, just a point that the politician was determined to make no matter WHAT the question was!
Spoiler alert: This post has about as much relevance to the original thread title as the last couple of hundred posts!
Hippocampus
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Unless you’re always in protected waters that are warm, well populated, and with SARS/tow services right at hand fire and sinking can’t ruin your whole day and possibly prevent future ones. Think most people know that. So think the 1/3rd comment is possibly a bit overstated.
Believe that’s definitely not true for the cruising community. We routinely exercise our through hulls and suspect the gentle readers on this site do as well.
Believe that’s definitely not true for the cruising community. We routinely exercise our through hulls and suspect the gentle readers on this site do as well.
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Thank you.
The owner survey checklist and comprehensive photo list covers it. The insurance company also says to hire someone if you can't do it yourself. The boat owner signs a document stating that the questions and photos honestly represent the boat. Every seacock on the boat is photographed in the closed position. Fire extinguishers certification is a Coast Guard requirement. A condition survey is not rocket science.
I've been on this forum since it was spun off from Passage Maker decades ago. Bp has posted those exact same old sensational photos many times. BP seems to think they justify his behavior. They don't.
Portage_Bay
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During my membership on TF I've read Boatpoker's posts and taken his statements as very valuable and informative. I have read much of BP's web site and learned quite a lot. I find BP to be a cut above the typical surveyor. Well, more than a cut above, far above. If he weren't on the east coast I'd use him without reservation.
As one who has always owned older boats, for those that have a problem with surveyors calling out the best current practices, ABYC or other, on insurance surveys of older boats I share your frustration when expected to be held to a standard that did not exist when the boat was built. I suggest a pre survey conversation with the surveyor and ask that the boat not be held to current best practices, but to the best practices at the time she was built. Unless the survory's finding is a serious safety concern. If the surveyor won't agree to that, find another surveyor.
That doesn't mean I don't want to know what the surveyor finds. I just want him/her to leave ABYC references out of the report where not appropriate. But I need the surveyor, not myself to make that call. When I hire a surveyor I am hiring his / her expert opinion. I'll give an example, my previous boat was an early 70's Tolly with propane cooktop, catalytic heaters and refrigerator. The boat may have met best practices when she was built. But the propane system cobbled together out of tees, elbows, couplings and nipples was a dangerous mess by today's best practices. That NEEDED to be pointed out by the surveyor. A less knowledgeable owner would not have appreciated how dangerous the system was and taken it upon themselves to clean that mess up. I removed propane service the the refrigerator, removed the catalytic heaters and brought the supply tanks to cooktop up to current best practices.
Pre-purchase surveys are a different kettle of fish.
On the subject of ABYC being a for profit classification society. Yes, they are. And that is not necessarily a bad thing. Commercial shipping classification societies are among others ABS, DNV GL and Loyd's Register. ABYC is a recreational boat version of those classification societies and provides a valuable service in building and maintaining safe boats.
On the subject of an insurance underwriter's reliance upon ABYC. Many of the underwriters we use are not solely in the marine business. They depend upon outside experts, the surveyors and ABYC, to help them determine the risk involved in underwriting a boat and her owner. We pay them a rather modest annual fee (premium) to accept a significant risk. In my case I ask the underwriter to assume the financial risk of a potential $3,129,800 if everything goes wrong.
Also there is the personal financial risk to consider. In the event of a major claim I don't want to give an adjuster any leverage to deny my claim. I want to have used a qualified surveyor recognized by the underwriter as reputable to have performed the insurance survey.
As one who has always owned older boats, for those that have a problem with surveyors calling out the best current practices, ABYC or other, on insurance surveys of older boats I share your frustration when expected to be held to a standard that did not exist when the boat was built. I suggest a pre survey conversation with the surveyor and ask that the boat not be held to current best practices, but to the best practices at the time she was built. Unless the survory's finding is a serious safety concern. If the surveyor won't agree to that, find another surveyor.
That doesn't mean I don't want to know what the surveyor finds. I just want him/her to leave ABYC references out of the report where not appropriate. But I need the surveyor, not myself to make that call. When I hire a surveyor I am hiring his / her expert opinion. I'll give an example, my previous boat was an early 70's Tolly with propane cooktop, catalytic heaters and refrigerator. The boat may have met best practices when she was built. But the propane system cobbled together out of tees, elbows, couplings and nipples was a dangerous mess by today's best practices. That NEEDED to be pointed out by the surveyor. A less knowledgeable owner would not have appreciated how dangerous the system was and taken it upon themselves to clean that mess up. I removed propane service the the refrigerator, removed the catalytic heaters and brought the supply tanks to cooktop up to current best practices.
Pre-purchase surveys are a different kettle of fish.
On the subject of ABYC being a for profit classification society. Yes, they are. And that is not necessarily a bad thing. Commercial shipping classification societies are among others ABS, DNV GL and Loyd's Register. ABYC is a recreational boat version of those classification societies and provides a valuable service in building and maintaining safe boats.
On the subject of an insurance underwriter's reliance upon ABYC. Many of the underwriters we use are not solely in the marine business. They depend upon outside experts, the surveyors and ABYC, to help them determine the risk involved in underwriting a boat and her owner. We pay them a rather modest annual fee (premium) to accept a significant risk. In my case I ask the underwriter to assume the financial risk of a potential $3,129,800 if everything goes wrong.
Also there is the personal financial risk to consider. In the event of a major claim I don't want to give an adjuster any leverage to deny my claim. I want to have used a qualified surveyor recognized by the underwriter as reputable to have performed the insurance survey.
O C Diver
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You're working under the assumption that they are aware of the risks and choose to ignore them. What part of owning and operating a boat required them to gain that knowledge? I would imagine in the USA that most boating fatalities and sinkings happen within sight of land. So a raw water hose fails between the seacock and engine. What percentage of boaters know or remember there's a valve there to close? What percentage could find it or even figure out the flooding problem?
While I would expect cruisers (especially the ones who do their own service and repairs) to be more dialed in, there is a significant percentage that only fix what's broken. I guess it also depends on your definition of a cruiser.
Ted
You need to start previewing your quotes so they show up under the name of the person you're quoting. Another one here that made it look like it was you that you were quoting. Perhaps something going strange with the forum, but double check.
QUOTE [I'm sorry you feel that way. It sounds like you've had a bad experience with a surveyor who didn't appreciate your vessel as much as you think he should have. ]
I've had great surveys for almost two decades. For the first three I hired a Naval Architect who considers SAMS/NAMS unprofessional at best and refuses to join their ranks. The last survey I did myself (and fixed a few items after going through the check list provided by the insurance company).
I've had great surveys for almost two decades. For the first three I hired a Naval Architect who considers SAMS/NAMS unprofessional at best and refuses to join their ranks. The last survey I did myself (and fixed a few items after going through the check list provided by the insurance company).
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Re: Post #236. "The US government does say that commercial vessels with propane systems must comply with ABYC Standards however."
Interesting that the US government require adherence to "suggestions".
Therein lies the problem. SOME surveyors (present company excepted, of course) seem to think AYBC has some legal clout. AYBC suggests "best practices" but unless these same items are required by COLREGS, they are not enforceable other than by collusion and blackmail by insurance companies.
Re: Post #236. "The US government does say that commercial vessels with propane systems must comply with ABYC Standards however."
Interesting that the US government require adherence to "suggestions".
Therein lies the problem. SOME surveyors (present company excepted, of course) seem to think AYBC has some legal clout. AYBC suggests "best practices" but unless these same items are required by COLREGS, they are not enforceable other than by collusion and blackmail by insurance companies.
Thanks but I won't be posting here anymore.
Sealife
Guru
Ignorant masses for the win. Another resource lost. But hey, anything to save a buck and not upgrade your boats for the safety of those onboard or around you.
It’s funny really, people come to the forum to get “professional” advice for free, but don’t listen until the narrative fits their budget and motivations, usually provided by “non professionals”. Then revolt against the resources that originally made the forum worth using.
Technology making all our lives better
mvweebles
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I hope that's not true. Sometimes threads get a little out of hand. I said it very early in this thread, Boatpoker has been quick to provide newbies with good advice and guidance. His website is chock full of useful information. I hope you'll continue to be so generous with your experience, if not for old farts, at least the newbies. We were all there and giving back a bit is one of the best parts of TF.
That said, many people on this thread have often provided good information. And it's been interesting to see the exchange, though I have to say I've never had the issues with surveyors many of y'all have had.
Hope to see you around BP.
And thanks to all.
Peter
Ignorant masses for the win. Another resource lost. But hey, anything to save a buck and not upgrade your boats for the safety of those onboard or around you.
It’s funny really, people come to the forum to get “professional” advice for free, but don’t listen until the narrative fits their budget and motivations, usually provided by “non professionals”. Then revolt against the resources that originally made the forum worth using.
Technology making all our lives better
You might want to be careful who you label as ignorant and non-professional. I have three decades of experience as a safety professional with the FAA...from engineering test pilot to regulations and policy manager to Aircraft Certification Directorate manager. Experience and responsibility includes air vehicles from birth to post certification continued airworthiness (what we've been discussing here). The Coast Guard operates much the same way, but they are pretty much hands off for recreational boats. The safety record does not support a need for more. Boat operations yes...vessel safety no. You should be thankful for that. Unfortunately it allows for manipulation of the system.
My concerns have centered on the introduction of unapproved technical guidance that gets forced on owners. Rulemaking by fiat. The Coast Guard needs to look into this. That means the price of doing business goes up and so do your taxes.
Boat Poker has stated he's through posting in the past. Don't believe it...he comes back after his supporters tell him how great he is. Quite.... amusing.
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Sealife
Guru
I’ll stick to my labels. But thanks for posting again to prove my point
Planes vs. boats...
“Introduction of unapproved technical guidance”....WTF
His supporters...oh you mean the ones that can differentiate ____(pick a word, experience, factual based recommendations, education, relevance to the topic, etc.) from the BS...got it
Next you’ll tell us Nigel Calder doesn’t know anything about electricity.
Usually let this nonsense slide....but this is why forums become garbage. I think back to Jay Leonard on the old yahoo Mainship forum and such, I learned so much before all the armchair sailors starting mucking it up.
As an old salt once told me....I guess it’s time to go to sea again. At least there is no internet out there.
Planes vs. boats...
“Introduction of unapproved technical guidance”....WTF
His supporters...oh you mean the ones that can differentiate ____(pick a word, experience, factual based recommendations, education, relevance to the topic, etc.) from the BS...got it
Next you’ll tell us Nigel Calder doesn’t know anything about electricity.
Usually let this nonsense slide....but this is why forums become garbage. I think back to Jay Leonard on the old yahoo Mainship forum and such, I learned so much before all the armchair sailors starting mucking it up.
As an old salt once told me....I guess it’s time to go to sea again. At least there is no internet out there.
Sealife
Guru
I'd expect nothing less than more unsolicited advice. I'm sure your experience on a government ship maintained to those standards with a full crew has alot to do with a cruising couple using their 42' boat. Right, because earlier you were an airplane expert with decades of experience. So are you 100 some odd years old?
But hey 1 yr of experience repeated 30 times must be 30 yrs of experience...right...wait which distinguished career are we talking about.
Think I'm following BP out of this waste of time as well.
But hey 1 yr of experience repeated 30 times must be 30 yrs of experience...right...wait which distinguished career are we talking about.
Think I'm following BP out of this waste of time as well.
BruceK
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Never thought I`d see an excellent TF member like BP vilified like this. Nasty stuff. Wish it would stop. Wish it never happened. Originating from not wanting to survey liveaboard boats being sold. His business, his choice.
As in the past, boatpoker infers he's leaving the forum to stir up his supporters and seek sympathy. Works every time He's out there lurking.
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djones44
Senior Member
I've seen a lot of nouveau boaters come into the game deciding that they just 'plan to live aboard', and that they simply need a comfy boat and a few hundred bucks a month for moorage and expenses.
My own advice, being many times impecunious, and now using my boat as my studio but not my home, is to do the same. Keep a base on land, however modest, and that will allow the rest to follow along.
In post #161 I described an incident from our last marina where a local town resident advised that we were "being watched" because it wasn't fair that we had a water front view and didn't pay local taxes. We were planning the move to another town the next year anyway, so while I was taken aback, I just blew it off.
Last summer (third year at the new location) a local resident walked up beside the boat and struck up a conversation. He has a nice waterfront house a few blocks away and moors his 38 Rinker out front. I invited him aboard for a beer. It didn't take long before he asked how much we were paying for the slip (municipal marina). He was outraged when I told him and said we'd be paying three times that amount in Chicago (where he has a boater friend). I said, but this isn't Chicago, and your house and slip would be worth three or four times it's current value in Chicago....or any place that at least had a gas station or a convenience store or a restaurant....or a bar. I told him I'd pay whatever the town/state charges. Very odd...small town politics and attitudes...a little creepy, actually.
Anyway, there's another example of just plain old envy and greed playing out against a live aboard.
Last summer (third year at the new location) a local resident walked up beside the boat and struck up a conversation. He has a nice waterfront house a few blocks away and moors his 38 Rinker out front. I invited him aboard for a beer. It didn't take long before he asked how much we were paying for the slip (municipal marina). He was outraged when I told him and said we'd be paying three times that amount in Chicago (where he has a boater friend). I said, but this isn't Chicago, and your house and slip would be worth three or four times it's current value in Chicago....or any place that at least had a gas station or a convenience store or a restaurant....or a bar. I told him I'd pay whatever the town/state charges. Very odd...small town politics and attitudes...a little creepy, actually.
Anyway, there's another example of just plain old envy and greed playing out against a live aboard.
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