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Lostsailor13

Lostsailor13

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
439
Location
Usa
Vessel Name
Broadbill
Vessel Make
Willard 36
What is considered long range these days just out of curiosity
 
Wild ass guess...Pacific crossing potential.
 
MurrayM said:
Wild ass guess...Pacific crossing potential.
Click to expand...

That's more likely a passage maker.

LRC would probably be capable of cruising through the Caribbean or maybe cruising from Seattle to parts of Alaska.

Ted
 
Probably another "definition" that really isn't well defined, more marketing than anything else.

One aspect is capability to be self-sufficient for long periods of time (fuel capacity and burn, food storage, water maker, etc.).

I would add to the definition the boat is rigged for multi-day off shore cruising so that you can comfortably run for those long periods of time.

My assumption is that LRCruising (apart from possibly the Great Lakes in this region) is offshore.
 
Maybe I should have been more specific,lemme restate it,for a vessel to be considered a LRC how many miles should she be able to steam on her own fuel reserves
 
Lostsailor13 said:
Maybe I should have been more specific,lemme restate it,for a vessel to be considered a LRC how many miles should she be able to steam on her own fuel reserves
Click to expand...

Twice half way.

That's a tough question. Most boats will have a range of distances based on cruise speed. Not uncommon for people crossing oceans to reduce their speed atleast for the beginning of a trip to ensure enough fuel reserves. As an example, at 8 knots my boat has a 1,300 mile range. At 7 knots it's 2,100 miles. At 6 knots it's 3,000 miles.

It would probably depend more on how slow you're willing to go. Where you plan to cruise and distance between fuel stops, is probably a bigger consideration. While some boats have less than a 500 mile range, I would be happier with over 1,000. One of the advantages of large tanks, is the ability to fuel at the less expensive docks.

This is from heading South in November:

20201113_072458.jpg

Ted
 
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Don't rely on labels. Instead, consider fuel capacity, fuel consumption rate, and speed. My boat should be able to go non-stop from San Francisco to Seattle with its 310-gallon fuel capacity cruising at six knots.
 

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Vessels fall into two categories.

Can cross oceans

Cannot cross oceans.

Beyond that fuel range is frankly unimportant.

Why???

The two farthest places in North America between fuel availability are Yakutat Alaska to Cordova Alaska and Turtle Bay Baja Mexico to Cabo.

Both are in the 300NM range.

So... If you can make 300NM safely you can go anywhere.

Ocean crossing is another story. 2,000 miles of safe fuel range is needed.

Anything between 300 and 2,000 has little meaning really. More fuel just adds choices but is not necessary.
 
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Cross oceans like California to Hawaii
 
ksanders said:
Vessels fall into two categories.

Can cross oceans

Cannot cross oceans.

Beyond that fuel range is frankly unimportant.

Why???

The two farthest places in North America between fuel availability are Yakutat Alaska to Cordova Alaska and Turtle Bay Baja Mexico to Cabo.

Both are in the 300NM range.

So... If you can make 300NM safely you can go anywhere.

.
Click to expand...

In america maybe, here its yes and no.
Smaller boats yes, bigger boats possibly no
Size of boat and maneuverability or lack there of makes a difference
Many fuel docks are simply to tight in the quest to jam in maximum marina berths
Nearest next stop for us from where we are now is a good 500nm away.

If I go north once I have passed Cairns next easy dock is probably 1500nm further on
Sure, I can get fuel from barges and tie up to barnacle encrusted jetties but easily accessible floating pontoons for big, cumbersome white boats are few and far between.

But its OK, we are good for 3500nm @ 7.5 knots.
More again if dropping back to 6 knots @ 1000rpm
 
Was just wondering if I could call my vessel a lrc
 
What ya got for tankage? Fuel burn at cruising speed?

I'd be willing to bet the your Willard is a LOOOONG range cruiser. They took that 30' Willard to Bermuda. That's long range, fer sure!
 
Gabe n Em said:
What ya got for tankage? Fuel burn at cruising speed?

I'd be willing to bet the your Willard is a LOOOONG range cruiser. They took that 30' Willard to Bermuda. That's long range, fer sure!
Click to expand...

500 gallons at 7.5 knts burning 2 gph,if I pull her back to 6knts just over 1gph at that speed with 500 gallons in favorable conditions should give me 3000 mile range plus maybe closer to 3500
 
Gabe n Em said:
What ya got for tankage? Fuel burn at cruising speed?

I'd be willing to bet the your Willard is a LOOOONG range cruiser. They took that 30' Willard to Bermuda. That's long range, fer sure!
Click to expand...

500 gallons at 7.5 knts burning 2 gph,if I pull her back to 6knts just over 1gph at that speed with 500 gallons in favorable conditions should give me 3000 mile range plus maybe closer to 3500,another 36 hull with smaller engine crossed from cali to Hawaii burning something like 350 gallons over 18 days,so I guess it may even be considered a passagemaker
 
Lostsailor13 said:
500 gallons at 7.5 knts burning 2 gph,if I pull her back to 6knts just over 1gph at that speed with 500 gallons in favorable conditions should give me 3000 mile range plus maybe closer to 3500
Click to expand...

No one would bat an eye if you called your boat a long range cruiser!
 
A funny side note: our boat has about 170 gallons of diesel tankage, giving it an approximately 400 mile range at 12 kt cruising speed in good weather and it says " passage maker" right on the side, from the manufacturer!

Call it what you want! Those Willards are a sweet ride
 
Gabe n Em said:
A funny side note: our boat has about 170 gallons of diesel tankage, giving it an approximately 400 mile range at 12 kt cruising speed in good weather and it says " passage maker" right on the side, from the manufacturer!

Call it what you want! Those Willards are a sweet ride
Click to expand...

I bought this boat in Rhode island was at safe harbor,curious what does your cat have for power in her
 
There's a few safe harbor marinas I believe.

If you make it back down, we are in wickford during the season and would love to trade boat tours in a post-COVID world.

She's powered by twin 75 ho yanmars (4jh3-te).
 
Safe harbor Portsmouth,there is nothing fancy about my boat it's built more towards utility and efficiency,the interior is very plain,simple,anyway I was on a world catamaran and couldn't believe how smooth and sturdy they ride,you rig must be unbelievably stable and smooth
 
We're pretty happy with it. Going into steep seas makes the bridge deck pound, otherwise it's great. I think you could go down swell in almost anything in this boat.

There's a lot to be said for utility and efficiency.
 
Gabe n Em,

Does your boat "hull steer" when going down swell? What I mean is, does one side of the boat bite first and pull the boat to one side or the other? I have been on Cat fishing boats and they often do. You need to keep a firm hand on the helm when surfing down the backside of waves.
 
I don't think we go fast enough for that effect. I've experienced it on a buddy's twin vee. We've surfed into Narragansett bay doing 17 kts down the face of 6-8' seas and she ran well. I did turn the autopilot off, but that was more to try to stay in the sweet spot("surfs up, dude!") vs worries of swerving wildly.

More often than not, the opposite is true and I'm complaining about how this thing acts like it's on rails. I used to be able to walk our mainship sideways into a slip. This boat won't walk, she just lurches backward!! You can turn it in it's own footprint though, so it's still crazy easy....
 
I looked at Beebe and others (this blog post for more) and decided, for us, "a passage maker or long range cruiser can be classified as being able to go at least 2,000nm on standard tanks at a speed of 6-8kn"
 
To me, LRC is a Hatteras term to differentiate their longer-range designs from motoryacht models as they are primarily known as a builder of motoryachts and sportfisher style boats.
 
ksanders said:
Beyond that fuel range is frankly unimportant.

Why???

The two farthest places in North America between fuel availability are Yakutat Alaska to Cordova Alaska and Turtle Bay Baja Mexico to Cabo.

Both are in the 300NM range.

So... If you can make 300NM safely you can go anywhere.
Click to expand...

Careful here - first, minor correction it's at least 700 nms from Ensenada to Cabo with the leg from Turtle Bay to Cabo just over 400 nms. Second, fuel at Turtle Bay is via a panga (Enrique) famous for being a mixture of 98% diesel and 2% mystery sludge; and for seeking breathtankgly high price for the pleasure. On the plus side, nice guy, nice family, and they'll pickup your trash. I would consider this an emergency or convenience stop only.

As a past delivery skipper out of San Francisco, I played these mind games for keeps for a living. Can a boat with 400 nm range get delivered the 4500 nms from Florida to California? On paper, yes - stretch from Cancun to Key West is just under 400 nms. Can it be done "safely?" Not to my tastes and tolerance - it means total reliance on accuracy of weather forecast, and means you're stopping for fuel ten times in places like Honduras and Nicaragua, neither of which I would consider safe. Best option would be to add barrels or bladder tank to increase range to at least 700 nms and you're still doing a meet-and-greet with Enrique and his family, especially if you're headed north into the prevailing "Baja Bash" weather.

I've long advocated for a term "Coastal Passagemaking" where a boat is equipped for serious weather within a 3-day zone of reasonably reliable weather forecasting, and carries enough fuel so the voyage isn't a tavern-to-tavern run of fuel stops in pretty rough commercial ports. For me, that means 1500 nms of range at normal cruise speed - San Diego to Acapulco is 1500 nms so you can dawdle all you want along the way, avoid the trappings of Cabo for La Paz, or just head to Mazatlan (which is actually about the same distance from Cabo as La Paz).

Peter
 
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mvweebles said:
Careful here - first, minor correction it's at least 700 nms from Ensenada to Cabo with the leg from Turtle Bay to Cabo just over 400 nms. Second, fuel at Turtle Bay is via a panga (Enrique) famous for being a mixture of 98% diesel and 2% mystery sludge; and for seeking breathtankgly high price for the pleasure. On the plus side, nice guy, nice family, and they'll pickup your trash. I would consider this an emergency or convenience stop only.

As a past delivery skipper out of San Francisco, I played these mind games for keeps for a living. Can a boat with 400 nm range get delivered the 4500 nms from Florida to California? On paper, yes - stretch from Cancun to Key West is just under 400 nms. Can it be done "safely?" Not to my tastes and tolerance - it means total reliance on accuracy of weather forecast, and means you're stopping for fuel ten times in places like Honduras and Nicaragua, neither of which I would consider safe. Best option would be to add barrels or bladder tank to increase range to at least 700 nms and you're still doing a meet-and-greet with Enrique and his family, especially if you're headed north into the prevailing "Baja Bash" weather.

I've long advocated for a term "Coastal Passagemaking" where a boat is equipped for serious weather within a 3-day zone of reasonably reliable weather forecasting, and carries enough fuel so the voyage isn't a tavern-to-tavern run of fuel stops in pretty rough commercial ports. For me, that means 1500 nms of range at normal cruise speed - San Diego to Acapulco is 1500 nms so you can dawdle all you want along the way, avoid the trappings of Cabo for La Paz, or just head to Mazatlan (which is actually about the same distance from Cabo as La Paz).

Peter
Click to expand...

There is a Huge difference between need and want. You Need fuel to get to the next fuel stop.

You might want fuel to be able to bypass fuel stops, but you certainly do not need it.

Being a ex delivery captain you will also understand that as a delivery captain your job was to deliver a boat from point A to point B as quickly as possible, in a safe manner. Frankly that is not normal recreational cruising, that is a delivery cruise.

I, my self have made the 1500NM trip multiple times from Washington to Southcentral Alaska, every one being a "delivery" trip. I long for the day whan I can do it as just a cruiser. Take more time, see the sights, decide on weather not based on safety, but the tighter standard of comfort.

That style of cruising makes coastal regions anywhere in at least North America, and yes central America I suppose open to most of our cruising boats. Yes this is not taking into account geopolitical instability that might occur regionally in central America but it's a start.

I have never been to Turtle Bay but hope to in 2022. I have heard that fuel is expensive there but at least it's available, and the organizers of the CUBAR event must recognize it's suitability for use, as it is a fuel stop for them. Actually someone I know did the CUBAR rally last year in pretty much my same model boat. :)
 
ksanders said:
There is a Huge difference between need and want. You Need fuel to get to the next fuel stop.

You might want fuel to be able to bypass fuel stops, but you certainly do not need it.

Being a ex delivery captain you will also understand that as a delivery captain your job was to deliver a boat from point A to point B as quickly as possible, in a safe manner. Frankly that is not normal recreational cruising, that is a delivery cruise.

I, my self have made the 1500NM trip multiple times from Washington to Southcentral Alaska, every one being a "delivery" trip. I long for the day whan I can do it as just a cruiser. Take more time, see the sights, decide on weather not based on safety, but the tighter standard of comfort.

That style of cruising makes coastal regions anywhere in at least North America, and yes central America I suppose open to most of our cruising boats. Yes this is not taking into account geopolitical instability that might occur regionally in central America but it's a start.

I have never been to Turtle Bay but hope to in 2022. I have heard that fuel is expensive there but at least it's available, and the organizers of the CUBAR event must recognize it's suitability for use, as it is a fuel stop for them. Actually someone I know did the CUBAR rally last year in pretty much my same model boat. :)
Click to expand...
Of you need fuel, Enrique in turtle Bay can get it done. Won't be pretty, won't be fast, won't be cheap. And frankly, fuel there has had reports of crud. But if you are in need of fuel, it's doable.

If you simply want fuel, bypass and head to the fuel dock in Cabo 400nms further.

Im not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying serious coastal cruising can't be done with 300 nm range without adding tankage. And it's a much different trip with even 400 nm range - constantly searching for the next fuel dock, hoping it's open, has staff, has electricity, and the fuel is relatively clean. And then you have to climb uphill into prevailing weather to go home.

So yea, I kept a delivery pace because I enjoyed it and because that's what I was paid to do. But especially if I were to dawdle and seek out anchorages, I'd especially want the additional range as that gives freedom to go places.

Ksanders, you have a beautiful boat - really a gem. If I had that boat, I'd do the trip too. I knew a guy with a Uniflite 48 CPMY with 500 g diesel (at least 600 nm range at 7.5 kts) and had a great time over a 2 year period headed down as far as Acapulco and back to SF. Worked out fine. But this type of trip was not the use case these boats were built for. So you have to adapt. I personally like long runs and view refueling as a necessary evil, sort of like headed to the dentist. For me, I want (note "want") 1500 nms but my intended cruising grounds are a bit more remote than others (central America and Mexico). But someone else may be fine with less, a lot less. Less than about 600-700 starts to get a little cramped and alters the trip.

Peter
 
mvweebles said:
Of you need fuel, Enrique in turtle Bay can get it done. Won't be pretty, won't be fast, won't be cheap. And frankly, fuel there has had reports of crud. But if you are in need of fuel, it's doable.

If you simply want fuel, bypass and head to the fuel dock in Cabo 400nms further.

Im not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying serious coastal cruising can't be done with 300 nm range without adding tankage. And it's a much different trip with even 400 nm range - constantly searching for the next fuel dock, hoping it's open, has staff, has electricity, and the fuel is relatively clean. And then you have to climb uphill into prevailing weather to go home.

So yea, I kept a delivery pace because I enjoyed it and because that's what I was paid to do. But especially if I were to dawdle and seek out anchorages, I'd especially want the additional range as that gives freedom to go places.

Ksanders, you have a beautiful boat - really a gem. If I had that boat, I'd do the trip too. I knew a guy with a Uniflite 48 CPMY with 500 g diesel (at least 600 nm range at 7.5 kts) and had a great time over a 2 year period headed down as far as Acapulco and back to SF. Worked out fine. But this type of trip was not the use case these boats were built for. So you have to adapt. I personally like long runs and view refueling as a necessary evil, sort of like headed to the dentist. For me, I want (note "want") 1500 nms but my intended cruising grounds are a bit more remote than others (central America and Mexico). But someone else may be fine with less, a lot less. Less than about 600-700 starts to get a little cramped and alters the trip.

Peter
Click to expand...

Thanks Peter! I have a safe range of 600NM, but tend to err on the side of caution, also realizing that every day on the hook takes precious fuel.

I fully agree that my boat was not necessarily designed for extended cruising, but it works, it's what I have, and I am not in a position to buy a higher dollar boat without trading years of my limited lifespan to buy it. So... I will have to make the best of it.

I suppose that is the point I was trying to make, but I'm not too good at wording things.

Folks dreaming need to think realistically about their cruising lifespan. They need to look at their finances realistically, and their age realistically knowing that the clock is ticking. At some point many of us have to make a choice, work longer for a more capable boat, risking never going cruising, or...

Use the boat they have, or can buy, maximizing it's potential through prudent decisions.

We all dream of a new Nordhavn but most of us cannot ever buy one, so if we really want to cruise we do it in a decent boat and make it work. :)

BTW, I love the Willards and would have bought willard 40 that a friend owned if the wife would have let me. :)
 
ksanders said:
Thanks Peter! I have a safe range of 600NM, but tend to err on the side of caution, also realizing that every day on the hook takes precious fuel.

I fully agree that my boat was not necessarily designed for extended cruising, but it works, it's what I have, and I am not in a position to buy a higher dollar boat without trading years of my limited lifespan to buy it. So... I will have to make the best of it.

I suppose that is the point I was trying to make, but I'm not too good at wording things.

Folks dreaming need to think realistically about their cruising lifespan. They need to look at their finances realistically, and their age realistically knowing that the clock is ticking. At some point many of us have to make a choice, work longer for a more capable boat, risking never going cruising, or...

Use the boat they have, or can buy, maximizing it's potential through prudent decisions.

We all dream of a new Nordhavn but most of us cannot ever buy one, so if we really want to cruise we do it in a decent boat and make it work. :)

BTW, I love the Willards and would have bought willard 40 that a friend owned if the wife would have let me. :)
Click to expand...
I agree - too many people overthink the boat and it keeps them from heading off. With a small investment in weather tools and some very achievable skills in forecasting, a lot of boats can venture very long distances even without extreme tankage.

Years ago on the original T&T bulletin board, there was a guy with a improbable moniker "Rick the Mouseherder." I think he lived aboard a Westsail 32 sailboat. His email signature tag line said something like "a small boat tied to the wind beats a big boat tied to the bank."

The Bayliner 47/45/38 series had amazing layouts. I'm surprised they didn't have broader market influence with other builders. They are a bit light, but low profile and wide and are surprisingly comfortable in bigger water. And comparatively fuel efficient. Biggest issue is spray intrusion through the windows and ports. No surprise your wife put her foot down compared to the W40.

Peter
 
Wickford, RI hug fest here! I'm at Safe Harbors, Wickford. My Transpacific Eagle 40 "Fungirl" has about a 1400 mile range at 8kts and 2300 mile range at 5kts. I consider her a long range cruiser. At the least, I can go most of a regular cruising season on one tank of fuel. Once we set off on the Loop, I figure it will give me lots of choices of where to fill up based on price.
 
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