Live aboard haters

FYI and if you are interested.....

https://yachtsinvest.com/faq/ce-yacht-compliance-classification/

My AT34 carries a B certificate. Nice to know the boat can survive that weather, not so sure if I would survive.
I suspect cabinet doors would be flying open and the contents fly to the lowest point and then, back again.

Sealife said:

Just to stir the pot....if you were born in 1950 or whenever, would you want your healthcare to stay at that year's standards during physicals etc.? Or would you want your Dr. to apply some "new fangled" medicine to keep you alive and healthy?

So I agree about overzealous surveyors, but there is a reason to find some middle ground.

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Last time I checked, the boat wasn't a person, and doesn't have a vote. I want any elective for the boat to be my choice...not some surveyor forcing it on me via an insurance report. If they want to give me a sperate list of recommend items that's fine. Absolutely not OK if they put it in an insurance survey. If that's their mode of operation they get fired before they start. Some insurance companies don't see the difference between a recommendation and a real issue. We pay. Those boat owners who put up with that nonsense or even welcome it are part of the "safety creep' problem.
that the rest of us wind up paying for.

Rufus said:

Last time I checked, the boat wasn't a person, and doesn't have a vote. I want any elective for the boat to be my choice...not some surveyor forcing it on me via an insurance report. If they want to give me a sperate list of recommend items that's fine. Absolutely not OK if they put it in an insurance survey. If that's their mode of operation they get fired before they start. Some insurance companies don't see the difference between a recommendation and a real issue. We pay. Those boat owners who put up with that nonsense or even welcome it are part of the "safety creep' problem.
that the rest of us wind up paying for.

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Then that shouldn't be a problem for you. There are lots of unqualified shady surveyors that will use the value you provide and gladly let you dictate a report that suits your ends.

boatpoker said:

Then that shouldn't be a problem for you. There are lots of unqualified shady surveyors that will use the value you provide and gladly let you dictate a report that suits your ends.

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Nothing to do with qualified or shady. Everything to do with some surveyors insisting on putting putting recommendations and associated later ABYC criteria into insurance reports. The surveyor community does it to pad their reports to show the insurance companies how competent they are, how indispensable they are to the insurance industry, and to support their partner organization ABYC. I will absolutely dictate that an insurance report not include extraneous opinion.

With respect, your analogy is not even close to relevant.

Sealife said:

Just to stir the pot....if you were born in 1950 or whenever, would you want your healthcare to stay at that year's standards during physicals etc.? Or would you want your Dr. to apply some "new fangled" medicine to keep you alive and healthy?

So I agree about overzealous surveyors, but there is a reason to find some middle ground.

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Usually stuffed full of crap - another generalization with no basis in fact. I could easily argue that live aboards, the boat is their home you do know, maintain their home with pride. Remember, dirt home owners, some homes are a cluttered mess, others are neat as a pin. But, usually? Really.

Sealife said:

And in defense of boatpoker, liveaboard boats are usually stuffed so full of crap, you can't access anything.

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Rufus, absolutely. That is why I said I won't let any surveyor on board my boat without first knowing what he generally puts in his report. I have no respect for the ABYC because, as far as I know, it does not provide guidance to surveyors about what to put in a report and how to frame call-outs. The ABYC just writes standards and walks away. In many respects the ABYC does a disservice to boat owners. However, the really good surveyors are your friend.

Rufus said:

Last time I checked, the boat wasn't a person, and doesn't have a vote. I want any elective for the boat to be my choice...not some surveyor forcing it on me via an insurance report. If they want to give me a sperate list of recommend items that's fine. Absolutely not OK if they put it in an insurance survey. If that's their mode of operation they get fired before they start. Some insurance companies don't see the difference between a recommendation and a real issue. We pay. Those boat owners who put up with that nonsense or even welcome it are part of the "safety creep' problem.
that the rest of us wind up paying for.

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So, who are these shady guys? Anyway, what you are talking about is confined to an insurance survey. What we are talking about here is a purchase survey commissioned by a buyer.

boatpoker said:

Then that shouldn't be a problem for you. There are lots of unqualified shady surveyors that will use the value you provide and gladly let you dictate a report that suits your ends.

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Wow! All I can say without disrespect is...wow! I don’t ever see being able to explain it. I’ll see if boatpoker wants the frustration of trying.

Obviously, there is no explaining. As is usual on this forum, any forum, some opinions, some statements, offend others. And attempts at humor can often be misinterpreted. Boatpoker's opinion, his determination of what is right for him is, well, his right. It is also the right of others to disagree or be offended. Well-reasoned criticism should be encouraged, not criticsed, in my opinion.

Sealife said:

Wow! All I can say without disrespect is...wow! I don’t ever see being able to explain it. I’ll see if boatpoker wants the frustration of trying.

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I guarantee I've been on more liveaboard boats than anyone here.
The majority are boats that I want nothing to do with.

To me it's easy to see both side...having been mostly on the receiving side of bad surveys and ignorant insurance companies.


But I do see where even the best of surveyors are caught in between several pulls and insurance companies have become nothing but bureaucracies that live and die by checklists and number crunching as far away from individualism as one can get. Though I have disagreed with surveyors and initial insurance demands and wn easily buy using a bit or logic and reason that must have lessened their worry of a future claim. I should have never had to make the argument because the surveyors clearly went too far (or off base) and the insurer followed rather blindly (the other side of the coin and boater frustration).

Rufus said:

If a surveyor shows up for survey of a decades old boat and says his/her latest copy of ABYC guidelines is the bible, that should be a clue that the individual. has no sense or experience or both. SAMS/NAMS and ABYC have a business partnership...not sure if it's formal, but they show up at marinas together to sell safety. Their relationship with insurance companies is insidious. Guess who pays...

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Look at the NAMS study Guide for the NAMS Certification.

Study Guides:
Yachts & Small Craft — ABYC, NFPA, CFR's 33, 46, Subchapter C.

NFPA: National Fire Protection Association

CFR 33: Title 33 is the portion of the Code of Federal Regulations that governs Navigation and Navigable Waters within the United States.

-> CFR 33 Subchapter C: AIDS TO NAVIGATION

CFR 46: Title 46 is the portion of the Code of Federal Regulations that governs shipping within the United States for the United States Coast Guard, the United States Maritime Administration, and the United States Maritime Commission.

--> CFR 46 Subchapter C : UNINSPECTED VESSELS

So it's not completely clear what you're insinuating or what a surveyor should be referencing. Your opinion seems to lack facts or clear understanding of the subject at hand.

Here is the statement from my report on standards used.

I do not distuiguish between pre-purchase, condition & valuation or insurance surveys. I've never understood how one can come up with an accurate valuation with the abbreviated "insurance" surveys I've seen.I treat them all the same and make this clear to anyone who wishes to hire me. Should they choose someone else, thats ok with me.

Shrew said:

Look at the NAMS study Guide for the NAMS Certification.

Study Guides:
Yachts & Small Craft — ABYC, NFPA, CFR's 33, 46, Subchapter C.

NFPA: National Fire Protection Association

CFR 33: Title 33 is the portion of the Code of Federal Regulations that governs Navigation and Navigable Waters within the United States.

-> CFR 33 Subchapter C: AIDS TO NAVIGATION

CFR 46: Title 46 is the portion of the Code of Federal Regulations that governs shipping within the United States for the United States Coast Guard, the United States Maritime Administration, and the United States Maritime Commission.

--> CFR 46 Subchapter C : UNINSPECTED VESSELS

So it's not completely clear what you're insinuating or what a surveyor should be referencing. Your opinion seems to lack facts or clear understanding of the subject at hand.

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I know exactly what's required by law regarding safety of pleasure boats. There are few specifics precisely because there isn't a significant safety issue in the pleasure boat community that would require changes to current government requirements. All the rest that many (most) surveyors wave around (primarily ABYC) are guidelines for new construction....not 30 year old boats.

I've actually written technical information for ABYC at their request. It has its place....new construction. With decades of experience in the regulatory arena, I assure you I understand the difference between requirements and guidelines. Surveyors should be assessing boats for condition against the original design that was approved for entry into the country (the U.S. in my case). Laying out a list of items that don't comply with current practices for new boat construction should be banned by SAMS/NAMS as being outside the scope of survey reports. It's a fundamental error in their practices and "training"....and they've been told about it. They cost boat owners untold amounts of money to make unnecessary and unrequired changes to their boats. Insurance companies buy into it because their both lazy and they see an upside to killing off the older boat community. The "partnership with the insurance companies to have exclusive rights to conduct surveys is a subtle scam...rhyms with SAMS/NAMS...and is probably an unfair labor practice.

SAMS/NAMS won't change their way of doing business because it diminishes their status and influence. ABYC, of course, likes the current scam because it makes inroads for their guidelines into the older boat community. Boat owners need to screen surveyors regarding these practices. Permitting it to continue is cutting your own throat, and that of fellow boat owners.

Rufus said:

I know exactly what's required by law regarding safety of pleasure boats. There are few specifics precisely because there isn't a significant safety issue in the pleasure boat community that would require changes to current government requirements. All the rest that many (most) surveyors wave around (primarily ABYC) are guidelines for new construction....not 30 year old boats.

I've actually written technical information for ABYC at their request. It has its place....new construction. With decades of experience in the regulatory arena, I assure you I understand the difference between requirements and guidelines. Surveyors should be assessing boats for condition against the original design that was approved for entry into the country (the U.S. in my case).

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So with that line of thought it would appear that surveyors should make no reference to dangerous propane systems as there are no legal requirements for propane installations in pleasure craft in either Canada or the US. Is that your position ?

I was waiting for you to bring this up...and that's not what I said. Propane system installations originally installed by manufacturers 30 years ago were safe when they came into the country, and if properly maintained they are still safe. Maybe not as safe as what's adequate in your opinion, but the U.S, government has said nothing about a safety issue with originally installed propane systems in their regulations.

Now, if someone scabs on a system at a later date, then that system should meet the requirements that were in place at the date of manufacture for the boat. It's YOUR job as a surveyor to ferret out that criteria. But that's not what's done. Surveyors make a blanket statement, and in effect mandate via the insurance companies that every old system that doesn't meet the letter of ABYC is unsafe. Again, that is not supported by the safety statistics, or the regulatory authorities. A perfect example of design and safety creep being forced on boat owners.

I've had this exact discussion with SAMS management. They told me it's inappropriate for their surveyors to automatically characterize any older system, including propane, in their reports in this fashion. Of course they tell me that...who knows what they tell their members (nothing, it appears). Surveyors are not the safety arbiters for pleasure boating. Many like to think they are, but in fact it's the Coast Guard in the U.S.

In the U.S. safety rulemaking requires a public process that involves the end user. It also requires a cost-benefits analysis. Surveyors arbitrarily mandating current design criteria for old boats via insurance companies bypass this legal requirement. What they do is arguably illegal.

It says that in Canada too.

"Existing pleasure craft that were constructed according to an earlier version of this Standard are not required by the Regulations to comply with the current construction requirements of the Small Vessel Regulations, but are encouraged to do so insofar as it is reasonable and practicable."


People often (not Boatpoker) confuse code, standards and specifications. My most recent surveyor had no clue of the difference either.

Rufus said:

that system should meet the requirements that were in place at the date of manufacture for the boat. It's YOUR job as a surveyor to ferret out that criteria.

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Tough to ferret out (legal) requirements that don't exist.

So I'll ask again ... Should surveyors not report on dangerous propane systems because there are no legal requirements for them ?


None of the potentially lethal situations in the photos below are covered in the CFR's either. In your view these should not be reported on either ?

Jeff F said:

In defence of BP, I think his market area is a bit unique. I'm lightweight liveaboard in my second winter in Toronto. The only yachts in the water are liveaboards. The rest are ashore.....

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So, I was a casual browser here until I ran across your post. I remember heading across the lake a couple of years ago and staying at the TI marina (we're 30 miles south). Had an absolute blast there, but I was a bit confused about some of the obvious derelicts/tarps in the area. Now, after reading through this thread I understand.

Still, overall that was a great place to stay, and got to know a few locals there. Spent a night into early morning on one of their "beaches" facing the Tower.

Many of the year round liveaboard crowd seasonally migrate from there to here.

Jeff F said:

Many of the year round liveaboard crowd seasonally migrate from there to here. View attachment 112783

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C'mon Jeff, Lets see some photos, this is a perfect opportunity to show off you shrink wrap skills

I've got the worst wrap here. No pics. It's an embarrassment.

Here's the view from the pilot house.

boatpoker said:

Tough to ferret out (legal) requirements that don't exist.

So I'll ask again ... Should surveyors not report on dangerous propane systems because there are no legal requirements for them ?


None of the potentially lethal situations in the photos below are covered in the CFR's either. In your view these should not be reported on either ?

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One more time, boats that came off the assembly line 30-40 years ago were built to best practices at the time. That's the criteria if you can't find regulations that apply. The typical propane systems installed 30-40 years ago won't have a sealed container...but they typically do have overboard drains, etc. You as a surveyor don't come along and say the system is dangerous because it doesn't meet today's ABYC, or in your learned opinion it's unsafe. In my learned opinion those old systems are adequately safe if operated and maintained properly. And so said the U.S. government.

I interviewed a surveyor a decade ago and asked him what he thought about our factory propane system. He said it didn't meet ABYC guidelines at the time and he would report it as unacceptable/unsafe in his survey. But not to worry, he knew the managers of the yard and would get them to cut me a deal for the redesign and installation of a new system. Like hell he would...and I sent him packing. And that's when I called SAMS headquarters as mentioned above. The person I spoke with said his boat was just like mine and was safe. That's what's going on out there.

Regarding the electrical items in your photos...your report should say modifications to the original electrical system do not meet best practices that were in place at the time the boat was constructed. You never say the entire electrical system is unsafe or unacceptable because the constructor used untinned wire, and you don't say it doesn't meet ABYC.

Jeff F said:

I've got the worst wrap here. No pics. It's an embarrassment.

Here's the view from the pilot house.
View attachment 112784

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Drift alert !!! That doesn't look bad.
We installed a tropical aquarium.

Rufus said:

In my learned opinion those old systems are adequately safe if operated and maintained properly. And so said the U.S. government.

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Actually the US government did not say that .. unless you can provide an official reference.
Still talkin' propane right ?

The US government does say that commercial vessels with propane systems must comply with ABYC Standards however.

Rufus said:

One more time, boats that came off the assembly line 30-40 years ago were built to best practices at the time. That's the criteria if you can't find regulations that apply. The typical propane systems installed 30-40 years ago won't have a sealed container...but they typically do have overboard drains, etc. You as a surveyor don't come along and say the system is dangerous because it doesn't meet today's ABYC, or in your learned opinion it's unsafe. In my learned opinion those old systems are adequately safe if operated and maintained properly. And so said the U.S. government.

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Just because it was legal and acceptable at the time does NOT mean it's actually safe. However, that also doesn't mean that everything needs to be updated to the latest standards. There needs to be some logic and discretion applied if an update is required or suggested. Some newer standards are completely impractical to retrofit or provide minimal benefit. Others are fairly easy to update to and/or provide a large benefit.



With a propane system in particular, being that I don't trust people not to be a little bit dumb or complacent, I'd expect at least most of the newer standards to be met (at least as far as regulators, solenoids, detectors, ventilation of the locker).

Jeff F said:

Many of the year round liveaboard crowd seasonally migrate from there to here. View attachment 112783

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Yep, and my marina owner winter stores a lot of cross border boats as well. Last year was a bit of a challenge getting them reunited. Hoping this year will loosen up a bit, as I really want to cruise the Trent.

bracketracer said:

Yep, and my marina owner winter stores a lot of cross border boats as well. Last year was a bit of a challenge getting them reunited. Hoping this year will loosen up a bit, as I really want to cruise the Trent.

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And we'll be heading south from Ontario within hours of the border opening.

PS. We'd love to spend the entire year in the NY canal system but you guys got that winter thing goin' on too.

For my knowledge bank, what is wrong with that battery bank?

boatpoker said:

I guarantee I've been on more liveaboard boats than anyone here.
The majority are boats that I want nothing to do with.

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