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bp - Read your post 178 as well as the scary attached safety inspection.

Sure do want to repeat: Independent workers/business-owners have every right in the world to accomplish items or to not accomplish items for whomever they choose! One of the perks for sole proprietorship!!
 
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boatpoker said:
I seem to have upset some people with my refusal to survey liveaboard boats so thought i'd provide some background, not an apology, just background.

Many of the people on this forum keep their boats shipshape and there are some here that clearly know what they are doing ... these are not the type of people I usually come across, in fact after thousands of surveys I've concluded that you are quite rare.

The vast majority of boats that I survey have been maintained by people who have less than a clue and a significant number had questionable house training. The majority of liveaboard boats that I've surveyed are dangerous and likely contagious. I have not surveyed a liveaboard vessel since 2014 so I thought I'd show you the last one I did, the one that made me say ...
Enough !

PS. I've blanked out any identifying info as I don't like to be sued.

The attached example is not a complete survey but a "Marine Safety Inspection" so read carefully the "Commission" and "Scope" statements. There is a large marina with liveaboards on Lake Ontario. For years they hired me to inspect boats that they thought might be an issue. These inspections were referred to as "Marine Safety Inspections". Those boats continued acceptance at the marina depended on my report. This report is quite brief as I walked off before completing it. I could post very similar "Marine Safety Inspection" and complete "Marine Survey Reports" of a similar ilk every night for the next year ..... Enough !
Click to expand...

There were actually people living on that thing? Inconceivable.
 
boatpoker said:
The attached example is not a complete survey but a "Marine Safety Inspection" so read carefully the "Commission" and "Scope" statements. There is a large marina with liveaboards on Lake Ontario. For years they hired me to inspect boats that they thought might be an issue. These inspections were referred to as "Marine Safety Inspections". Those boats continued acceptance at the marina depended on my report. This report is quite brief as I walked off before completing it. I could post very similar "Marine Safety Inspection" and complete "Marine Survey Reports" of a similar ilk every night for the next year ..... Enough !
Click to expand...

As you stated, the very purposes of that inspection were suspicion of significant issues so to see disaster as you did would be anticipated and related to a specific population of boats. The thing that would bother me most is the marina was hiring you to do a job they for some reason weren't doing as they should. It's one of the "we know this boat isn't safe but we'll not address it directly, instead we'll get a surveyor to do our dirty work. That boat also didn't get that way overnight. They'd ignored it for a long time, likely from the day it arrived. I can tell you one thing, I would not be a tenant there if that's at all indicative of how they run things.

Truly disgusting conditions and I don't know who makes me angrier, the boat owner or the marina management.

It reminds me a bit of a young manager years ago who worked for me and came to me and asked me to terminate one of his employees. I explained that the guy didn't work for me and in order to terminate his employee, I'd have to terminate him first so it would then be my employee. I said "You made the mistake of hiring him and letting things get out of hand, now you must deal with your problem."

Now to the OP's original post, marinas allowing such as this sure leads to strong dislike of liveaboards. I've seen it many places. The marina that had the fire on the TN river was a great example. We really don't have the problem in Fort Lauderdale because dockage at marinas is too expensive for derelict boats but also the marinas do check for insurance and do examine the boats. However, north and south of here I've seen it. I would think anyone keeping a boat at such a marina could easily become very anti-liveaboard.
 
BandB said:
.

It reminds me a bit of a young manager years ago who worked for me and came to me and asked me to terminate one of his employees. I explained that the guy didn't work for me and in order to terminate his employee, I'd have to terminate him first so it would then be my employee. I said "You made the mistake of hiring him and letting things get out of hand, now you must deal with your problem."
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BandB - Maybe I'm not seeing the picture clearly; regarding your paragraph above.

Please explain how a "manager" who works for "you" would ask "you" to terminate one of "his" employees? And, that for "you" to terminate "his" employee "you" would need to terminate "your" manager first so that "his" employee would then be "your" employee?

I am confused.
 
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Art said:
BandB said:
.

It reminds me a bit of a young manager years ago who worked for me and came to me and asked me to terminate one of his employees. I explained that the guy didn't work for me and in order to terminate his employee, I'd have to terminate him first so it would then be my employee. I said "You made the mistake of hiring him and letting things get out of hand, now you must deal with your problem."
Click to expand...

BandB - Maybe I'm not seeing the picture clearly; regarding your paragraph above.

Please explain how a "manager" who works for "you" would ask "you" to terminate one of "his" employees? And, that for "you" to terminate "his" employee "you" would need to terminate "your" manager first so that "his" employee would then be "your" employee?

I am confused.
Click to expand...

It was his direct report, his responsibility. Not my place to terminate someone who doesn't report to me. Now if I terminated the manager, then the employee would report to me and it would be my job to terminate him. The point was, it's your responsibility and I'm not going to do your dirty work for you. I feel like that's all the marina is doing with BP, having him do their dirty work. You don't need a surveyor to know that boat was unsafe.

Also, once you let such a boat in, if it doesn't change, you have very poor legal standing to get rid of it. Be selective or you may be stuck.
 
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BandB said:
It was his direct report, his responsibility. Not my place to terminate someone who doesn't report to me. Now if I terminated the manager, then the employee would report to me and it would be my job to terminate him. The point was, it's your responsibility and I'm not going to do your dirty work for you. I feel like that's all the marina is doing with BP, having him do their dirty work. You don't need a surveyor to know that boat was unsafe.

Also, once you let such a boat in, if it doesn't change, you have very poor legal standing to get rid of it. Be selective or you may be stuck.
Click to expand...

Nice job of delegating. Do tell, did the manager fire that employee or did you end up firing both.
 
There are two major surveyor associations that I know of. To my knowledge most insurance companies will only accept insurance surveys from a surveyor in good standing as a member of one of those two. Perhaps BP can speak further concerning that.
My insurance vendor requested that I obtain a survey when the boat hit 7 years of age and we argued about value as there was a $100k difference between what they deemed appropriate and what I asked for. Surveyor deemed value $50k higher then what I asked for and I got my valuation at no increase in premium.
At every single one of the marinas in every country visited as well as throughout the American east coast I’ve been asked for ships papers and the face page of my insurance policy. I have yet to be in a marina that doesn’t ask for at least $1m liability. All have wanted to see adequate liability insurance and interacted with one that required additional as well. Spoke with the yard manager who said beyond liability they want to see in the event of a fire, boat breaking free or other mishap that you are insured for any losses. My understanding this is a new trend as it’s been just liability that I’ve needed to demonstrate in the main in the past.
You need insurance and a inspection sticker to keep a car on the road. Inspection sites are licensed by the various states. I would think that a similar system could be established for boats. Only licensed surveyors could provide a acceptable survey for this purpose. They would be at risk of losing said license if a fraudulent survey was shown to be submitted. Although checking for the sticker at private ramps might be difficult. Checking for this at public ramps, slips and mooring fields could be done by a glance at the vessel just like a police officer looks at your plate and for your sticker. Should anyone have issue with any anchored boat a glance by a LEO would determine if that boat should be impounded similar to condemning dirt dwellings. The Caribbean is littered with abandoned boats. Once they sink petrochemicals and fuel is released into the environment. Some places contain and remove the harmful chemicals and use them for reef formation or erosion protection but most are just left to rot. You see both abandoned commercial and recreational craft. I would gladly pay an additional fee to my home state or added to documentation fees to support such a system with goal of making sure liveaboard boats aren’t hazardous to their occupants nor the environment if it included reclamation of delerict or abandoned boats. As stated by multiple voices here there is a subset of liveaboard boats that are a definite problem. At least some acknowledge it isn’t all liveaboards.
 
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I've lived aboard on/off over the years, probably a total of 5 years aboard in three different marinas. For the most part, I'm not a fan of fellow liveaboard neighbors. Some truly embrace the essence of living on a boat - a simple, austere but fastidious lifestyle - great people and great neighbors. These are the ones who walk the docks proactively solving problems.

But at the upper end of the liveaboard spectrum are owners who try to emulate a land based abode with flower pots and stuff and end up with a beautiful condo that requires a lot of prep to move. At the other end, looking for cheap housing with derelict cars in the parking lot stuffed with junk. Booze is better at the homeowner types so a preference towards them, but I don't care for either. Both view their boat as housing, just different part of spectrum.

Peter.
 
I am not sure any of us disagree that there are variations in liveabords....just some don't agree that BPs policy of not surveying liveaboards is based on a "hate" or thinking that ALL liveaboards are slobs.
 
Still, I thought he said he won’t survey ANY live aboard. Seems inappropriate to lump good folks in with the problem group. By his own admission he, his friends, people like Peter and many other good people are off his list. Anytime people are not judged as individuals but rather by a group designation the probability of injustice increases imho. By the classic definition I have never been a liveaboard. Always had a dirt dwelling as well even if it wasn’t in use for long periods. My comments are not self serving but rather due to a repugnance of any a priori characterization of a diverse group of individuals.
 
Hippocampus said:
There are two major surveyor associations that I know of. To my knowledge most insurance companies will only accept insurance surveys from a surveyor in good standing as a member of one of those two.
Click to expand...

Some years ago I needed an insurance survey. The only sams/nams surveyor in the area was an arrogant, incompetent bozo who had no experience on larger boats. But he was nonetheless eager to take the job, and would have been accepted by the insurance company. I knew of a well known Marine Architect in Sturgeon Bay who had designed and supervised construction of many boats including a spectacular 40 foot trawler. He said he'd help me out. This gentleman refused to join either of the surveyor organizations, which he thought were a joke. The insurance company accepted him with no issues after I wrote a letter listing qualifications as long as your arm. The insurance companies are lazy and have no idea how unqualified most of these surveyors really are. Mall cops.
 
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Hippocampus said:
You need insurance and a inspection sticker to keep a car on the road. Inspection sites are licensed by the various states.
Click to expand...

You're mistaken.

Not all states require an annual inspection (Florida to name one). Those states that license private facilities for annual inspection often have "only pay for sticker". Having grown up in New York state, the annual inspection program was a joke. For those with cars in disrepair, pay a little more under the table.

Ted
 
Hippocampus said:
Still, I thought he said he won’t survey ANY live aboard. Seems inappropriate to lump good folks in with the problem group. By his own admission he, his friends, people like Peter and many other good people are off his list. Anytime people are not judged as individuals but rather by a group designation the probability of injustice increases imho. By the classic definition I have never been a liveaboard. Always had a dirt dwelling as well even if it wasn’t in use for long periods. My comments are not self serving but rather due to a repugnance of any a priori characterization of a diverse group of individuals.
Click to expand...


I don't believe BP has a prejudice towards all liveaboards....just against surveying their boats.

For all we know, he likes most liveaboards, just doesn't want to survey their boats. That way he doesn't get to one of the ones he is describing and has to walk away.

I just see the issues as separate.
 
Hippocampus said:
Still, I thought he said he won’t survey ANY live aboard. Seems inappropriate to lump good folks in with the problem group.
Click to expand...

When I get a call for a survey and "liveaboard" is mentioned. I have no idea of the condition of that vessel. My experience shows that the odds are higher than I want to play that it will be an unpleasant experience hence my routine ... thanks but I'm too busy.
 
Wow. Good information. Thanks for setting me straight. Sounds like the licensing of boat brokers, surveyors, credentials given at the lower levels of master/captains licensing and even local marine law enforcement all have serious deficiencies. Any suggestions as how ameliorate these situations? Just glad I’ve muddled through all these years. Must be lucky or have vetted well.
BP ever thought to ask “how much total loss are you are asking for?”. Might separate the wheat from the chaff and get you even busier.
 
BandB said:
As you stated, the very purposes of that inspection were suspicion of significant issues so to see disaster as you did would be anticipated and related to a specific population of boats. The thing that would bother me most is the marina was hiring you to do a job they for some reason weren't doing as they should. It's one of the "we know this boat isn't safe but we'll not address it directly, instead we'll get a surveyor to do our dirty work.
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree with that, The marina management are a bit like landlords pursuing an eviction and although they suspect issues or have had complaints, if issues end up in court they better have more ammunition than their unqualified opinion.
I believe they are wise to get an independent opinion from someone with the credentials to back up their position on things the marina are not qualified to assess like these pending sources of fire/explosion ...
 

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Hippocampus said:
Wow. Good information. Thanks for setting me straight. Sounds like the licensing of boat brokers, surveyors, credentials given at the lower levels of master/captains licensing and even local marine law enforcement all have serious deficiencies. Any suggestions as how ameliorate these situations? Just glad I’ve muddled through all these years. Must be lucky or have vetted well.
BP ever thought to ask “how much total loss are you are asking for?”. Might separate the wheat from the chaff and get you even busier.
Click to expand...

Thanks but not interested in anymore business, We've been slowing down the last few years to spend more time crusing and now Sharon and I just work when we feel like it or if we get a really interesting one come our way :)
 
Hippocampus said:
Still, I thought he said he won’t survey ANY live aboard. Seems inappropriate to lump good folks in with the problem group. By his own admission he, his friends, people like Peter and many other good people are off his list. Anytime people are not judged as individuals but rather by a group designation the probability of injustice increases imho. By the classic definition I have never been a liveaboard. Always had a dirt dwelling as well even if it wasn’t in use for long periods. My comments are not self serving but rather due to a repugnance of any a priori characterization of a diverse group of individuals.
Click to expand...
Ummm....... Hate to say, but before I offloaded 3 tons of crap for my refit, I was probably Exhibit #1 for Boatpoker reasoning on why he avoids liveaboards. Even an ex liveaboard had too many ghosts.

But thanks for the kind thoughts.

Peter
 
Soo-Valley said:
Nice job of delegating. Do tell, did the manager fire that employee or did you end up firing both.
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He fired the individual he was asking me to fire who had committed many serious offenses including against him directly. It was simply a part of the job he had to learn. Most unpleasant part of any job. Just like policing tenants is for a dockmaster or marina owner, but it's part of it.
 
Mall cops. I like that. Some are but many are quite competent. I know of one I would trust any day on any boat, excluding megayachts. Question: how many sales have been jeopardized by surveyors calling out life-and-death issues that are simply incorrect? I'm thinking of those that call out non-tinned wire on older boats. When I get around to selling my boat, I will not let any surveyor on my boat without seeing a redacted copy of a prior survey on a similar boat. I will make it a condition of sale. I will not be caring if a buyer walks because of the requirement.
Rufus said:
Some years ago I needed an insurance survey. The only sams/nams surveyor in the area was an arrogant, incompetent bozo who had no experience on larger boats. But he was nonetheless eager to take the job, and would have been accepted by the insurance company. I knew of a well known Marine Architect in Sturgeon Bay who had designed and supervised construction of many boats including a spectacular 40 foot trawler. He said he'd help me out. This gentleman refused to join either of the surveyor organizations, which he thought were a joke. The insurance company accepted him with no issues after I wrote a letter listing qualifications as long as your arm. The insurance companies are lazy and have no idea how unqualified most of these surveyors really are. Mall cops.
Click to expand...
.
 
If a surveyor shows up for survey of a decades old boat and says his/her latest copy of ABYC guidelines is the bible, that should be a clue that the individual. has no sense or experience or both. SAMS/NAMS and ABYC have a business partnership...not sure if it's formal, but they show up at marinas together to sell safety. Their relationship with insurance companies is insidious. Guess who pays...
 
Although ABYC has its issues it’s sure a hell of a lot better than EC. The European system speaks only to whether the vessel mets its standards at the time it leaves the factory. Given many of the large manufacturers build to that standard but with profit strongly in mind even without modifications by the owner and with average usage and maintenance these boats can rapidly deteriorate to the point of being dangerous. Find this particularly true with boats labeled “A”.
I’ve done Marion Bermuda on decades old Hinckley B40s. Would have no reluctance to get on a 40-50 year old one and do it again nor a wooden Concordia. Age isn’t the determinant. Quality of initial build and maintenance is.
Rating systems do have some worth but it’s important to understand the underlying thinking and genesis of “best practices “ so when there’s a deviation you can judge is the deviation better than, worse than or not important as compared to the rule. Of course decades ago some of the rating systems didn’t exist and all have been modified since inception. My first boat was Lloyd’s, third Norske, several since then ABYC. None of that lets you off the hook for doing your own due diligence, improvements and replacements in accordance to service life and maintenance. Every time I watch a survey I learn something. Most of these people aren’t idiots but rather skilled professionals. Only once have I felt the need to dismiss one and have the job redone. Word of mouth and reputation goes a long way to choosing a good one.
 
Condition per the original certification criteria should be the primary aspect of surveys. But it's a completely different story when a surveyor attempts to force a later design standard on a 30 year old boat (that was "safe" when it left the factory). Sixty year old airplanes are flying around over your head, which were designed to a safety standard that was in force at the time of manufacture. Their recertification/airworthiness is based on adherence to the original design criteria for the vehicle. A later design standard is only required if a safety issue is identified during operation. And even then, in the U.S. the government mandated newer standard is very often not the latest, most stringent iteration. Be very careful what level of power you think should be delegated to organizations such as ABYC, SAMS/NAMS..or insurance companies.
 
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In my mind, it's worth looking at the newer standards relative to the boat, but not applying them the same as you would for a new build. Plenty of things are not worth updating, or not reasonable to update. But in some cases, an update is easy or provides a large benefit, so it may make sense to suggest or require it.
 
Just to stir the pot....if you were born in 1950 or whenever, would you want your healthcare to stay at that year's standards during physicals etc.? Or would you want your Dr. to apply some "new fangled" medicine to keep you alive and healthy?

So I agree about overzealous surveyors, but there is a reason to find some middle ground.
 
And in defense of boatpoker, liveaboard boats are usually stuffed so full of crap, you can't access anything.
 
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