Xantrex Inverter Tick Tock noise

My Xantrex XM1800 inverter makes a tick tock sound when switched off or not in use but connected to shore power. Comes on intermittently and then lasts for perhaps 10 mins and then stops again. Any ideas on what is causing this? The inverter works fine otherwise, so I am reluctant to replace this unless it is actually dying.
Tony Diering
Pocket Aces, Mainship '08 34T

Out of curiosity, do the outlets work when it is in this state? In other words, does shire power pass through okay?

About the only think I can think of it therebthat could tick would be the transfer relay, and it would be more of a click.

Also, out of curiosity, is the shore power stable at a good voltage (and frequency) vs a low voltage marina or something off a generator at too low a frequency?

My best wild guess would be that the transfer really is having an issue -- but that aint it if it works.

PocketAces said:

My Xantrex XM1800 inverter makes a tick tock sound when switched off or not in use but connected to shore power. Comes on intermittently and then lasts for perhaps 10 mins and then stops again. Any ideas on what is causing this? The inverter works fine otherwise, so I am reluctant to replace this unless it is actually dying.
Tony Diering
Pocket Aces, Mainship '08 34T

Click to expand...

I had a same model xantrex and the fan would come on even when it wasnt in use or turned on ---

Further info re Tick Tock. The microwave oven is on a dedicated circuit which only works if the inverter is on. So normally shore power powers the other circuits and plugs and while the Inverter is off, the microwave is not available but the tick tock persists. (Definitely two different sounds as in on/off).
Shore power is generally stable and no power failures or anything like that.

So, with the inverter off, as long as shore power is available, loads on the inverter should continue to work.

What turning the inverter off means is that if shore power is unavailable, the inverter won't be available to supply it.

If you aren't able to use devices "pass through" when shore power is available, that is an interesting data point. It points to a possible problem with the shore power relay, which disconnects the inverter from the output and connects the shore power, instead.

Can you confirm that pass through is not working? But that inverted output is working? Can you also confirm that the inverters AC breaker is on and that it is showing AC power on the display?

I have an older Xantrex 3000 that made a faint tick/tock noise whenever it searched for an AC load. The load trigger that would turn the inverter on is user selectable on my model, and it has been set to zero (or off) almost since new so that the inverter does not cycle on/off when looking for a load.

So, in our installation, we manually turn the inverter on when we have a need for inverter AC. The main reason for this configuration is the 5A draw when the inverter idles.

Thanks JayN and gkesden, Your replies have given me a much better idea of what is going on.
More info: There are three AC circuits on my boat. Two separate 30A circuits from shore power and the Inverter circuit.
The 30A shore circuits which can be jumped to work as one 30A circuit. This powers plugs, hot water tank, fridges etc.
The inverter circuit is only used to power the microwave and TV outlets. (This separation is to prevent accidental use of the inverter to make hot water for example and has worked well)

The inverter appears to have three operational modes. A) Inverter from battery, B) Using Shore power when Inverter is ON and C) pass through mode when Inverter is OFF.
A and B are working well, but C is where there is an issue.
The flow "diagram" is as follows: Shore power goes into Inverter which then does to a breaker marked Inverter. This breaker connects to two other breakers Microwave and TV. So the Inverter breaker must be on to operate either Microwave or TV.
If the inverter is off, then the Inverter Breaker light will still come on and I can switch the Microwave on. But if I try to run it at full power, if fails suggesting that there is a fault with the pass through circuitry for option C? That fault could also be the cause of the tick tock?

Does that explanation make sense? If that is right, then perhaps it is time for a replacement.

When you say the microwave fails, what do you mean? In what way?

Normally, the inverter has a relay, basically an automatic switch. If it detects shore power, the switch bypasses the inverter directly connecting the inverter's input to output. If it does not, the inverter supplies the output (or not).

Can you sketch the electrical diagram and post it. I'm not sure what is mean by "jumped", etc.

Normally, shore power comes into a main panel. One breaker from that panel is the input to the inverter. The output of the inverter goes to its own panel, or a separate set of breakers in the main panel. Those breakers feed the "invertable loads", those loads that will either be supplied via the inverter, either by pass-through or inversion, as selected by the inverters relay. Normally, the neutral wires, e.g. white wires, are separated such that those loads supplied by the inverter are on a separate neutral bus, that can also be managed by a relay in the inverter, isolated for inversion and combined for pass through.

do you have a fault light or description on remote panel? I just took mine in for repairs as it started clicking and gave a fault reading.

Soo-Valley said:

do you have a fault light or description on remote panel? I just took mine in for repairs as it started clicking and gave a fault reading.

Click to expand...

That's a really good question, Soo-Valley. Those things do have a long list of self reported codes. I had just assumed none since none were reported. Good call to ask.

When you say the microwave fails, what do you mean? In what way?

Click to expand...

when I first switch on the microwave, it defaults to showing the timer as 00:00 blinking. When the microwave fails (as per previous post), then instead of the time counting down, it reverts to 00:00 blinking.
Flow diagram (as best I know) is below.
The Tick Tock is when the Remote power switch is OFF (so I cannot see any fault indication as it is off). But some power is passed through to the microwave, but not enough to actually have it work (until the Remote power is switched on)

"The inverter appears to have three operational modes. A) Inverter from battery, B) Using Shore power when Inverter is ON and C) pass through mode when Inverter is OFF."

Although I have an older inverter, and it is installed differently, I don't think the above is correct.

Regardless if the inverter is on or off, if it senses shore power, it will transfer AC to its distribution circuits. The only function of the inverter on/off switch is to control the conversion from batteries to AC when there is no shore power.

Of course, it doesn't explain the tick/tock.


Note: Just caught your post #11 with schematic. While it may not be important for your solution, double check your inverter operations as suggested above, for better understanding.

What does the vertical OFF ON ON within the box labelled inverter represent?

There should be over current protection, normally a circuit breaker, between shore power and the AC input to the inverter.

The same is true of the DC battery connection, except that it is often a fuse.

If AC power is not being supplied to the inverter, and the inverter is turned off, there should not be output to the load.

If there is, that seems "not right" and potentially very bad. For example, if the outlet is also being served by the other shore power source and it is "out of phase", as it most likely could be, one could end up with a very high voltage between hot and neutral.

Do you have a volt meter? Are you familiar with how to use it? If so, and if comfortable that you can do so safely, it would be interesting to know what voltages you see at that outlet when it is in this problem situation. I'd measure all pairs (hot-neural, hot-ground, ground-neutral).

JayN: I agree that the ABC options above seem odd articularly getting some voltage output when the unit if off. But that is what is happening. However, I am thinking that this is new behaviour indicative of a failed (or partially failed) relay somewhere within the Inverter.

Gkesden: The Inverter breaker switch is definitely on the output side of the inverter, so it seems that there is not any breaker on the AC input side. This would be bad (unless there is an internal fuse within the Xantrex unit itself). I will investigate this further.
I have a voltmeter and am familiar enough to do the checks you suggested. (Even build a few audio amplifiers back in the day when they had transistors instead of circuit boards )
Anyway, I am now of the opinion that inverter is definitely on the blink. Time for a replacement...
Thanks for all the useful replies!

One more thought: The relay(s) within the Inverter are actual moving parts with some arcing every time they make contact, so presumably with age this part can wear out or cause poorer connection with associated potential to overheat etc so that is bad...

I recommend sorting things out before replacing the inverter. If the breaker on the output side is turned off, and there is power at that outlet, we are missing something, potentially important, from our model.

I'm not yet seeing a fault with the inverter. It has not yet been reported to supply power when it shouldn't or not when it should. Or, am I missing something?

The noise is a curiosity, and should be sorted out, but until the downstream wiring is square, there is more that could be going on.

The circuit protection on the input side of the inverter isn't something that can be fixed by circuit protection within the inverter.

By memory, with its associated faults and unreliability, that inverter has internal fuses. If something internal to it goes over current, e.g. shorts, those fuses will protect the AC input wiring.

But, if there is a wiring failure leading up to the inverter, the inverter's over current protection can't help. For an example, imagine that the input wiring chafes and shorts at the clamp going into the inverter, or as it passes through a too-small hole in a bulkhead that has shifted over the years, or as a staple or nail holding it wears its way in. Now we have a short circuit between black and white before it gets to the inverter, shunting the inverter.

The wiring to the inverter is now carrying a huge amount of current, and unless protected at the end closest to the source, can potentially get very hot and burn, etc.

Circuit protection at the source protects the wiring and needs to be sized for the wiring. Circuit protection at the device needs to be sized for the device, and protects the device.

PocketAces said:

One more thought: The relay(s) within the Inverter are actual moving parts with some arcing every time they make contact, so presumably with age this part can wear out or cause poorer connection with associated potential to overheat etc so that is bad...

Click to expand...

A lot of things could be wrong. But, before assuming that, I'd want a reason.

If the coil was going bad and couldn't hold, there could be a clicking-- but then the supply via the relay would also be flickering. The relay could also become sticky and be in the wrong mode. Or, indeed, resistance could go up, which could cause heat at the relay and lower voltage at the device.

But, I don't think we know that we have any of these symptoms?

Again, I'm not there and could be misunderstand what you've written.

But, I think we have two things...a clicking and an unexplained problem.at the device. The easiest thing to do next is to see if we can quantify the electrical problem with voltage measurements

Thanks again for the useful replies. I will head over to the boat and do several more tests to further understand what is happening. Of course, as the Tick tock is intermittent, it is quite possible that it will be quiet when I am doing my tests . Will provide more feedback later.

A further update on this thread...
I checked at the boat today. My earlier flow chart was correct. I also checked the manual and it clearly states that active shore power should be passed from input to output whether the unit is powered up or not. That is not happening properly. With the inverter OFF, I can fire up the TV and Microwave but if I run the Microwave at full power, then the TV switches off and the microwave resets. So that mode is NOT as per spec. With the Inverter on, all behaviour is okay on AC and DC.
I also did voltage measurements ( with inverter on and off). The TV socked showed 115 - 120V between Live and Neutral and Live and Earth and about 1V between Neutral and Earth (which is the same as other plugs not related to the Inverter). So that seems okay.
And, of course, no tick tock when I wanted it!

The overall setup is adequately fused / covered with breaker switches (30 amps on input and 15 amps on output and 300 amps on DC). So I am comfortable there is not a safety issue.
I believe it is okay to continue to use, but should be replaced at some point. (I would use that opportunity to upgrade to an Inverter/Charger)
Thanks again for the helpful suggestions.

So, a few more things to check...

What is the voltage where the AC power input screws into the inverter without a load? What about under the problematic mode?

What about at thebjnverter's output without a load? And under the problematic load?

It is certainly possible that the inverter is bad, perhaps probable. But, one concern I have is that it is also possible that there is a high resistance connection leading up to or at the inverter's AC input. And that, as a result of this, the inverter is getting low voltage in and, when inverting, switching that same low voltage to the output. Another concern I have, especially since you said there is no circuit protection for the inverter's AC supply feed (please fix this), is that there could be wire chaffing and a connection between hit and neutral upstream.

Should either such a situation exist, and again I am not saying that it does or probably does, the bad spot ould get very hot and be a fire hazard. So, even though it is perhaps less likely than a bad inverter -- please check for. Low voltage if you are comfortable you can do so safely, or have someone else check.
(Please also add that circuit protection).

If it were me, I'd want to prove the voltage theory by measuring the low voltage. Then, I'd want to prove where the voltage was dropping and address that quickly. Although not always, unintended point drops in voltages can often be fire hazards.

Also, that 1v between neutral and ground is a lot. You may want to trace that to see where it is leaking, e.g. start at your power pedestal, and the the other end of your power cord, and the shore power inlet, then the main breaker, then the inverter input, then the inverter output, then the loads, and see where it first appears with everything upstream disconnected.

If the boat is leaking it, it could, for example, be enough to pop shore GFCI/RCD if you plug in at a modern marina.

gkesden: The process of divide and conquer suggests that the fault must be inside the inverter. If it were on the connection into the inverter, then we would see similar behavior when the unit is on or off (which we do not). I cannot get back to the boat for a while to do any more tests, but don't think there is much more I can do anyway.

The manual for the Xantrex unit also describes various thermal protections to prevent overheating situations. Plus, now seeing that there is a problem running the microwave when the Inverter is off, it is a simple matter to ensure that it is on (which is pretty much what I have been doing for the last 10 years).

I do understand about the potential hazard of unplanned voltage drops under load so overall, so will do some more testing at a later stage.

Thanks again for your help!

PS there are three 30A circuit breakers leading up to the Inverter AC input, so I do believe this is well covered.

PocketAces said:

gkesden: The process of divide and conquer suggests that the fault must be inside the inverter. If it were on the connection into the inverter, then we would see similar behavior when the unit is on or off (which we do not). I cannot get back to the boat for a while to do any more tests, but don't think there is much more I can do anyway.

Click to expand...

I don't want to suggest that the following scenario is probable. Just possible...

Let's assume the inverter is seeing low voltage. When the inverter is enabled, it's "brown out" mode supplies good voltage to the device from the batteries by inversion instead of shore power. The energy is replaced by the battery charger. With the inverter off, it can't bridge a brown out, so it supplies the low voltage via the transfer switch ad it has no other option other than supplying nothing at all.

Normally, inverters kick in at ~90VAC. For some inverters a lower voltage won't be passed by the transfer switch when the inverter is off, but for others it will. So, although possibly unlikely, a low input voltage could still explain the symptom.

I don't know your battery or charger capacity, but how long it can support the load and the behavior of the charger might also be tells.

I'm not trying to discouraged you from buying a new inverter. The new ones are much nicer, e.g. true sine wave vs modified sine wave, most integrate chargers, and often times play nicer with RCD on shore. I just don't want you to miss another problem or buy something you don't really want or before you want.

Hey PocketAces,

Also, out of curiosity, what type of charger do you have? What is its capacity? What about batteries serving the inverter?

My thinking is that, whether the problem is inside or outside of the inverter, since the voltage is only right when the inverter is on, you are likely to be supplying that load by inversion from 12V. So, beyond your chargers capacity, it is likely to be coming from the batteries, which then might be recharged later.

...you may want to check the water on those batteries more often if they are flooded and they get loaded and charged a lot.

Going from my memory which is bad my inverter same brand as yours used to make a tick sound about every two seconds and the ac voltage gauge would show a ac current kicking in but for only a second and then the ac voltage gauge would go back to zero. It was some kind of power saving mode to save power. The voltage gauge kept bouncing up and down. I changed out of this power saving mode somehow, I don’t remember how and the tick and voltage meter stoped bouncing up and down.

freshalaska said:

Going from my memory which is bad my inverter same brand as yours used to make a tick sound about every two seconds and the ac voltage gauge would show a ac current kicking in but for only a second and then the ac voltage gauge would go back to zero. It was some kind of power saving mode to save power. The voltage gauge kept bouncing up and down. I changed out of this power saving mode somehow, I don’t remember how and the tick and voltage meter stopped bouncing up and down.

Click to expand...

They do have a battery power saver mode, a search feature to see if anything wants power and then sleep to draw less during no demand times.

gkesden: Thanks for the ongoing feedback. I will do a few more tests on the 1V between Neutral and Ground. Do you know what a more reasonable value would be? (0.1 or 0.5?) I will also do a few checks for the source as you suggest.

I have 4 newish GolfCart batteries which are in good shape and relatively new and topped with water only a few weeks ago. I simple check would be to turn off the switch between batteries and inverter, then turn on the inverter and try the microwave. I will do that next time at the boat.

From memory, the charger is a Promariner 1230 (12VX30A). That is not great but has worked well enough for me. Supplementing that with an additional 40A or so from an Inverter Charger would make sense if I do replace the inverter.

Regarding the other comments re Battery Power saver mode: I believe that if the inverter is off (as is almost always the case), then the inverter should not be drawing anything from the battery?

Even with the inverter off, like most modern electronics it probably draws a little. This is a type of "parasitic load".

As for that 1v N-G, I'd 1st want to understand it better. Is it present at the power pedestal? End of shore power cable? Back of shire power inlet? Main panel? Inverter input? Inverter output? Receptacle?

How concerned I am depends on how long the run is and what is attached to it. If it is a really long run with a lot of cumulative resistance or had many devices that could be capacitive coming, 1-3V wouldn't bother me. But, most runs in boats are relatively short with a relatively light load.

So, what is more concerning to me is something like a high-resistance corroded connection, or water or corrosion where the shire power cable meets the pedestal or boat or a soggy or worn out shore power cable or other wiring or extension cord or a runnwith a lot of splines, etc.

So, if the problem is the marina has old wiring and it is coming to you like that -- not your worry. If the problem is that you are buying up either end of your shore powerncord or receptacle because salt water got in there, or yourbshore power cord is old and soggy, etc, you want to fix that.

If Un plugging devices lowers it, a lot, probably not a problem.

So, I'm more concerned about the possibility of it occurring at a single point (bad connection) or few, than if it is just the result of along run or a bunch of leaky loads.

In a residential setting ~2-3% of 120v is probably where people would start getting concerned.

But in a boat with /no/ load on the circuit, I'd look for an explanation even at 1v. The reason is just that there is often a point problem at a bad connection rather than just acumulative effect.

On my boat, if it isn't just old marina wiring, it is always a blackening, overheating or wet shore power connection.

Also, that Premarin 1230 is a workhorse, reliable charger, at least among those I know with it. It may not have the capacity or features you want, but Ibsusoect ut'll do what it does for a long time.

Update: I check the 1V between neutral and ground and it originates in the shore power outlet. My boat has isolation transformers, so one question is which components are isolated? Live, Neutral and/or ground? It looks like the 1V is being passed through the isolation transformer into the boat AC.

I tried disconnecting the battery to see if the AC would be passed through the inverter, but with no DC, the Inverter does nothing and passes nothing through. With Inverter on, if I use the microwave, the green light denoting Shore power remains on, so it is unlikely that it is switching to DC supply due to voltage drop.

I have sent an email to Xantrex technical support asking their input, but am not optimistic of any reply. I will wait a while and take it from there.

An isolation transformer is normally wired so that no current path from shore continues to the boat's wiring.

Normally the shore hot (black) runs through the primary coil of the transformer and returns via the neutral (white) completing the circuit.

The shore grounding conductor (green) is tied to neutral back at the main and is basically a parallel safety neutral to keep a metal chassis from becoming hot if wiring goes bad. I'll come back to this in a minute.

The boat power is electromagnetically (inductively) coupled to the shore power via another coil, called the secondary coil, placed next to the primary coil in the transformer box. Just like the primary, it has a black connected to one end, which, in this case, will serve as the boat's hot. And, just like the primary, it has a white connected to the other end, which, in this case, will serve as the boat's neutral. As loads are connected between the black and the white on the boat side, they complete the circuit.

As alternating current from shore power passes through the primary coil, like an electromagnet, the current generates a perpendicular magnetic force. It is this magnetic force that, because it is changing, produces the flux that can drive current flow in the 2ndary circuit.in this way there are two different circuits, one including the primary qinding and one including the secondary winding. These circuits each have electrical current flow, and the primary is driving the secondary -- but through a magnetic (inductive) coupling vs an electrical coupling.

Since the transformer is the source of current for the boat, the grounding conductor on the boat is tied to the white wire on the boat. In this way if a hot wire chaffes and touches exposed metal, it'll shirt and pop an on-board breaker or fuse rather than being a shock hazard for a human.

The transformer, itself, us in a metal case. Thus case could become energized by a chuffed shore hot wire or by a chaffed boat hot wire. Bht, UT can only be protected from one or the other by connecting UT to either the shore grounding conductor or the boat grounding conductor. Since the greater risk is from the boat's wiring as it is more prevelant on the boat, that is the one it is tied to.

What then happens with the shore grounding conductor? It is either not connected to anything or, more commonly is connects to an electrostatic shield (not to be confused with the chassis, which is the outside metal tied to the boat's grounding conductor and neutral). This shield is just a piece of foil between the two coils that prevents a certain type of capacitive electrical noise that can result from having two energized blobs of metal nearby.

The upshot is that I'm not seeing how the 1v measured between neutral and ground on the boat can be related to the 1v between neutral and ground on the shore side.

....but this email is full of assumptions.

One question might be, if you unplug shore power and let your inverter supply the boat...is the 1v still present? If so, you know it isn't coming from shore!

The control bits of most inverters are powered off of the 12v circuit. As a result, I am unsurlrised that it seems off, disabled, and shutdown without 12v.

One thing you can do is to look at your Premarin charger. Shut down all of the loads except Keith's and the inverter (just briefly) and look at the current it is supplying to the battery. Microwave a cup of qater and see if it jumps up a lot. Stop the microwave and see if it settles back down in a few minutes after replenishing the batteries. When it does repeat the experiment. If you see the current jump, do it 2, 3, or 4 times to convince yourself.

If the current goes up a lot tgen the microwave comes on, even though correlation isn't necessarily causation, it'll be a good bet it is supplying the microwave. If you can run the microwave for a few minutes and the charger doesn't start working hard, good bet the inverter isn't inverting 12vdc into 120vac