Change electric stove, install gas stove

catalinajack said:

My two-burner induction cooktop is 1,800 watts, total. One burner can draw 1,800 watts, the other 1,300 watts but, when used together, the total does not exceed 1,800.

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The 1800 watts equates to about 15 amps. That still allows me something for the microwave/convection oven.
Considering I have a 30amp boat, I can shut off the WH and not miss it for a couple of hours. The recovery time on a boat water heater if far faster than at home too. I guess that is because the volume of stored HW is less on a boat.
Of course during the cooking, with a 6KW generator, one or both A/Cs is off too.
The only advantages of induction cooking is speed so the time the A/Cs and HW heater are off, is considerable less than using electric coil cooking.
I am still trying to squeeze in electrically a microwave/convestion oven

OldDan1943 said:

The 1800 watts equates to about 15 amps. That still allows me something for the microwave/convection oven.
Considering I have a 30amp boat, I can shut off the WH and not miss it for a couple of hours. The recovery time on a boat water heater if far faster than at home too. I guess that is because the volume of stored HW is less on a boat.
Of course during the cooking, with a 6KW generator, one or both A/Cs is off too.
The only advantages of induction cooking is speed so the time the A/Cs and HW heater are off, is considerable less than using electric coil cooking.
I am still trying to squeeze in electrically a microwave/convestion oven

Click to expand...

6kw from the generator is a lot more than a single 30A shore hookup (it's 50A total). If you've got a single 30A but a 6kw generator, have you thought about splitting the panel into 2 legs and adding a second 30A inlet? Maybe 1 for cooking appliances, the other for everything else?

mvweebles said:

Oh man.....this thread was almost back on track.

David, I know you want to talk about your latest boat-crush, a Unicorn of a vessel with a 150kw generator and 15kva inverter (gulp and double gulp!). It's not that anyone is denying it exists, it's just that it's so exotic that it's just not relevant to the folks on a forum such as this with people who actually own boats, with the average likely falling in the 45-foot range. Around here, $300k is a pretty expensive boat, and a gold-plater is above $800k or so. Roughly 400-600AH house battery banks are the most common, with 6kw-12kw generators aboard.

Don't take it so personally. Its just you're in the wrong place to discuss these concept boats. Someday they will become more mainstream. But that day isn't today, and the venue for discussion isn't a thread on gas vs electric cooking.

I'm sure you consider yourself a disruptor. I think most consider it disruptive which is too bad. It's an interesting concept boat and deserves its own thread. But please, just because you want to talk about it, don't barge every conversation, respond to every response.

This isn't about you.

Peter

PS - I know you're reading this, even though you said you wouldn't

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I know when most of the posts start disagreeing with me, I have broken my own rule of discussing the norm and more to the extreme.


And as you pointed out earlier, we all like to see peer review links or at least what ones experience/credentials are (other than reading magazine articles and manufacturer brochures).

rslifkin said:

6kw from the generator is a lot more than a single 30A shore hookup (it's 50A total). If you've got a single 30A but a 6kw generator, have you thought about splitting the panel into 2 legs and adding a second 30A inlet? Maybe 1 for cooking appliances, the other for everything else?

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I have a 2nd 30amp leg that provides for the 2 A/Cs

OldDan1943 said:

I have a 2nd 30amp leg that provides for the 2 A/Cs

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Tap into that one for the convection microwave outlet. You could run a small AC and a smaller Conv/micro at the same time.... everything else on the other leg.

I have never read a totally honest review in a mag. Give them a bad review and they will pull their ads.

psneeld said:

Tap into that one for the convection microwave outlet. You could run a small AC and a smaller Conv/micro at the same time.... everything else on the other leg.

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I have a 16k and a 12k A/C. There is no amp meter on the 2nd leg so I do not know how much room I have left.

When on the 6KW generator, I still think I will have to do the "30amp" dance.
Load shedding has become a way of life for me.
LOL

OldDan1943 said:

I have a 16k and a 12k A/C. There is no amp meter on the 2nd leg so I do not know how much room I have left.

When on the 6KW generator, I still think I will have to do the "30amp" dance.
Load shedding has become a way of life for me.
LOL

Click to expand...

If each leg of the panel is breakered at 30 amps, then yes, you're still limited to 30A per leg. If the panel isn't breakered at 30A and only the inlets are, then as long as the generator has a single 120V output fed in parallel to the 2 legs (rather than a 120/240 split phase output), you could use 50A total distributed however you want, provided the panel wiring can handle 50A on one leg.

My 16k A/C in the salon uses about 14 amps in cool mode with the pump included. Heat uses a bit more. A 12k will use less. So with an induction microwave on the A/C circuit you could run the smaller A/C and the microwave at the same time. Depending on how much the microwave draws, you might be able to use it and the big A/C.

If you really wanted to get fancy, install a selector switch for the microwave circuit so it can run from either leg as needed. Then if it's really hot out, you run it on leg 1 and load manage there but keep both A/Cs running. If it's not so hot, you can flip it to leg 2 with less or no A/C and use the microwave and stove at the same time with minimal or no power management concerns.

I know when most of the posts start disagreeing with me, I have broken my own rule of discussing the norm and more to the extreme.


And as you pointed out earlier, we all like to see peer review links or at least what ones experience/credentials are (other than reading magazine articles and manufacturer brochures).[/QUOTE]

So when guys here say that boat makers lie, then, like with that one boat mentioned above, they advertise that they offer to sell you aboat with the following, how do you verify what they offer for sale is true? Heres whatt one 55 footer claims:::::::10Kw solar panels...2 X 250kW, electric motors...150kW genset....300kh battery bank. Some here even said a 110 kWh battery bank couldnt fit, while admitting they have no idea pf the dimensions or weight. How would you see those claims are true? Be specific.

mvweebles said:

As far as fire related safety, ...
Of that 2%, well over half are still caused by alcohol stoves.

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It is interesting that alcohol stoves used to be preferred for fire safety reasons. You can put out an alcohol fire with water. Of course, you have to sort of light the whole range on fire to get them started.

One alternative not discussed is diesel stoves. Dickinson makes them, as does Wallas.

10Kw solar panels...2 X 250kW, electric motors...150kW genset....300kh battery bank. Some here even said a 110 kWh battery bank couldnt fit, while admitting they have no idea pf the dimensions or weight. How would you see those claims are true? Be specific.[/QUOTE]

Could you show us a 55' boat with 65sq (10kW) meters of solar panels please

David Ess said:

I know when most of the posts start disagreeing with me, I have broken my own rule of discussing the norm and more to the extreme.


And as you pointed out earlier, we all like to see peer review links or at least what ones experience/credentials are (other than reading magazine articles and manufacturer brochures).

Click to expand...

So when guys here say that boat makers lie, then, like with that one boat mentioned above, they advertise that they offer to sell you aboat with the following, how do you verify what they offer for sale is true? Heres whatt one 55 footer claims:::::::10Kw solar panels...2 X 250kW, electric motors...150kW genset....300kh battery bank. Some here even said a 110 kWh battery bank couldnt fit, while admitting they have no idea pf the dimensions or weight. How would you see those claims are true? Be specific.[/QUOTE]


Realize, if a magazine gives a negative review of their product, they will pull all their ads.
Without ad revenue the magazine will fold.

boatpoker said:

10Kw solar panels...2 X 250kW, electric motors...150kW genset....300kh battery bank.....

Could you show us a 55' boat with 65sq (10kW) meters of solar panels please

Click to expand...

Here we go again....

Meet the Unicorn - it does indeed have 30 panels on it, though would have some shading issues with hardtop raised, but that's nit-picking. Sort of a cool yacht. Specs from DE are off slightly - has a 210 kwh battery bank. OC Diver dug-up a short video of this crossing the Atlantic, apparently from Azores to Barbados. It is 64-feet, the 55-foot version smaller of course.

https://www.silent-yachts.com/silent64/

Peter

I live in (mostly largish) marinas...I look around....


Not a single boat I would describe as a hybrid, let alone a true cruising hybrid. Heck, not even a conventional electric boat.


Not at the last 2 marinas I lived at either.


Yet they must be common because I read it right here in this thread....and more to be production built right around the corner.


I will let the jury decide.


Remember, I never said it wasn't possible..... but common or practical for most right now????...even just barely enough to have electric cooking without significant genset time?????

Boatpoker...the 55 footer i just mentioned is found here....https://www.silent-yachts.com/silent55/.

One versions offer ther is just what I said......
+
2 x 250 kW E-motors
300 kWh Lithium battery
150 kW Generator
Cruising speed: 6 – 8 kt
Top speed: 19 – 20 kt
The most powerful propulsion option combines the largest battery bank with the strongest electric motors available. Therefore top speeds can be sustained for even longer periods of time while also maximizing the amount of energy which can be stored for back-up and deployed whenever needed. E-Power + delivers the ultimate solar powered yachting experience."

How would you verify the truth conditions of the ad?

/QUOTE] Some here even said a 110 kWh battery bank couldnt fit, while admitting they have no idea pf the dimensions or weight. How would you see those claims are true? Be specific.[/QUOTE]

This is really rich. For those who may have stepped away from the thread, let me catch you up....with a little literary license with quoted passages tossed in to make the read a bit more compelling:

A thread starts with a post in the Mainship sub-forum from a new trawler owner with a Mainship 400 asking about changing between propane and electric cooktop. The expected discussion ensues - propane is easy, electric requires a generator running, blah-blah-blah. Y'all know the drill.

Enter David Ess "Propane is dangerous! You'll blow up! Ticking timebomb - should never go to sleep at night for fear of instant death. Everyone knows that! Can't get insurance!" More conversation ensues about how propane can be installed safely, how running an electric stove has it's own problems, requires a generator, etc.

After a while, despite someone posting BoatUS stats to the contrary, his dead-horse-flogging inexplicably goes towards "Not one of you ninnies have proven that propane is safer than electricity! You guys are whackos!" I do give Sr. Ess credit - at least it was on-topic. Well, sort of....until the Unicorn arrived.

"All you need is a 210kwh battery bank! All the builders are going electric - you guys are dinosaurs!" At first, I figure it's a typo - I mean 210 kwh is a lot of power, and frankly, I don't think English is Sr. Ess's first language given his spelling and grammar. Nope, he's firm - it's 210kwh. Okay....I figure it's an overzealous newbie in search of his dream boat and do the quick math that 210kwh of batteries is something like 150 golf cart batteries, would take over 3 cubic yards of space, and weigh over 7-tons. Not exactly a practical solution for a Mainship 400. Besides charging would be nearly impossible.

"Not true!!" He says. "Solar is the answer!!"

So again with the quick math - 16 panels minimum, and is over 300 sf, and even that would take 10-days. Again, not exactly practical on a Mainship 400. But it's getting sort of interesting watching this guy fight his way through a long thread.

"AH HA!!!" he says. "Y'all are wrong and don't know what you're talking about! There are boats out there with plenty of solar. Just do your research!!!" No link, no citation. Nothing. Just....well....blabber.

Slow-forward 50 or so posts, and he finally gets to the big reveal: A Silent 55 (or 64 - it sort of varied), a solar concept boat - a Unicorn - that does indeed have 210 kwh of batteries and does indeed have 30 (not 16) solar panels. And then he starts asking people how big is the battery bank? Well, it's his find, you'd think he'd know......but he doesn't. So now, one of his biggest rants (and the quoted text at the top of this post) is "you guys couldn't even tell me how big the batteries were!"

"You guys don't know nothing! Boat builders are the experts!" So someone points out the numbers don't add-up. Simple math (again with the simple math): A pair of 250 kw motors against a 210 kwh battery bank is tough to ignore. I don't even need extra fingers to figure that one out. And besides, the 10kw solar cells will generate, on average 50 kwh of power on any given day. How do the batteries get recharged? Even the narrator on the MBY boat review video was skeptical of the range. But to be fair to Sr. Ess, I'm sure there's plenty of battery to cook a Thanksgiving Turkey with all the fixings, which was the exam question (more or less).

And now, for the last 100 posts, we have this annoying guy saying he's the brightest rock in the quarry because he found a boat that can indeed run an electric cooktop without running a generator.

So....the OP doesn't need to tweak his propane system, or even consider induction. What he needs to solve his gas vs electricity cooking dilemma is to get rid of his new-to-him Mainship 400, load-up $3m into a briefcase, and buy a 55-foot (or 64-foot) solar catamaran.

I guess I've been got. Touche Sr Ess.

Peter

mvweebles said:

So now, one of his biggest rants (and the quoted text at the top of this post) is "you guys couldn't even tell me how big the batteries were!"

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Actually, I did, some pages back. The short answer is roughly 10x as big as diesel tanks for the same range.

DDW said:

Actually, I did, some pages back. The short answer is roughly 10x as big as diesel tanks for the same range.

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DDW...instead of that supposed 'short' answer, be specific for the above 55foot boat , the 300kWh, they claim they will supply. In weight and dimensions. Or at least answer the recent question....about how you would confirm if they reall can sell you what they're advertising.
Another reason your short answer cant be right is because youre ignori g the fact of the 10kW of solar panels recharging the batteries every day. Do you acknowledge this critically important point?

boatpoker said:

10Kw solar panels...2 X 250kW, electric motors...150kW genset....300kh battery bank. Some here even said a 110 kWh battery bank couldnt fit, while admitting they have no idea pf the dimensions or weight. How would you see those claims are true? Be specific.

Click to expand...

Could you show us a 55' boat with 65sq (10kW) meters of solar panels please[/QUOTE]

I just sent the site in above...Silent 55....#285 above

DDW said:

Actually, I did, some pages back. The short answer is roughly 10x as big as diesel tanks for the same range.

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Roughly right. Here's a Volvo concept electric truck. 300 kwh battery (50% larger than the Silent 64's battery) with a single 185 kw electric motor, 60% smaller than the Silent 64's twin 250 kw motors. Has a range of 185 miles, or about 160 nms. Probably 6-hours of run time.

https://insideevs.com/news/337605/volvo-debuts-fl-electric-truck-with-up-to-300-kwh-battery/

Back to the MBY video review of the Silent solar catamaran. The closing comments are skeptical about manufacturer's claim of range and speed.....the numbers just don't add up. Even the gauges during the review didn't add-up. Grade-school math should make anyone skeptical that a pair of 250 kw motors drawing against a 210kwh battery bank is gonna run dry pretty quickly. It's a cool concept, but the manufacturer is wildly optimistic. And that's not even considering that the 10kw of solar panels will generate only 50kwh/day of energy on average. Doesn't matter how big the battery bank is - it's only getting 50 kwh per day unless you run the ........wait for it......diesel generator. Yet another set of numbers that don't add-up.

Good news is it can run an all-electric galley while you're bobbing in the middle of the ocean waiting for the solar to slowly fill your battery bank!

I think I'd probably be eating cold food and warm drinks, hoping the battery would charge faster.

The Silent website begs some questions though: Where did they get a battery powered electric motor with 98% conversion efficiency? That isn't even possible in the lab with small motors. The necessary inverter alone is likely to be at best low 90's. Not much detail given about what they are using but I'm curious. Giving a great benefit of doubt, let's say they achieve 100KWh from the solar in a day. That gives you 4 KW spread over 24 hours. About 6 hp, same as a very small outboard. More realistic is your 50 KWh estimate, so 3 hp. Provided you don't use the induction cooker much. Better have the wind and sea behind you.

Also, the Silent 64 is for sale, "located in the Mediterranean Sea". The video from 2018 left it in Florida. How did it get back to the Med? I'd like to hear that story. Deck of a ship? It'd be against the prevailing weather unless they went way north.

I was just browsing an on/off thread started last year about a guy on a glufstar 43 converting to electric hybrid using salvaged prius drive train and batteries. Twisted Tree cites in one of the earlier posts that he found a calculator on BoatDiesel.com that projected about 8.5 kw of power needed to move the boat at 4.4 kts. The owner was installing a 100kwh battery bank so roughly 50nm range, maybe 75nm. That tracks closely with the claims of a solar assist power cat on the market right now.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2009/island-pilot-dse12m-hybrid-2695424/

So let's call the energy consumption of the Silent 64 as 10kw at 5 kts, slightly more optimistic than the smaller but lighter two boats above. The solar array produces 10kw per hour during full sun. Solar systems generally assume an average of 5 hours of sun per day over the course of a year, but let's call it 10 hours for purposes of discussion. That means the Silent 64 is net-zero only 10 hours out of 24.

The manufacturers numbers just don't make sense.

Peter

DDW said:

I think I'd probably be eating cold food and warm drinks, hoping the battery would charge faster.

The Silent website begs some questions though: Where did they get a battery powered electric motor with 98% conversion efficiency? That isn't even possible in the lab with small motors. The necessary inverter alone is likely to be at best low 90's. Not much detail given about what they are using but I'm curious. Giving a great benefit of doubt, let's say they achieve 100KWh from the solar in a day. That gives you 4 KW spread over 24 hours. About 6 hp, same as a very small outboard. More realistic is your 50 KWh estimate, so 3 hp. Provided you don't use the induction cooker much. Better have the wind and sea behind you.

Also, the Silent 64 is for sale, "located in the Mediterranean Sea". The video from 2018 left it in Florida. How did it get back to the Med? I'd like to hear that story. Deck of a ship? It'd be against the prevailing weather unless they went way north.

Click to expand...

That is all broker brabble at Silent Yachts. For a state-of-the art renewably energy setup for an ocean cruising boat, one might better check the Gunboat 68 sailing catamarans. They actually sold 5 boats (>$5m/unit!!) so far. No genset required for house loads, due to the large horizontal surfaces available on a catamaran for solar panels, even with airco installed.

Still, they have conventional diesel propulsion for auxiliary power, no electric drives. Even with an open checkbook, sail still remains the prime propulsion system for low carbon footprint passages today, and a long way to go for an all-electric power ocean passagemaker, I would assume.

boatpoker said:

10Kw solar panels...2 X 250kW, electric motors...150kW genset....300kh battery bank. Some here even said a 110 kWh battery bank couldnt fit, while admitting they have no idea pf the dimensions or weight. How would you see those claims are true? Be specific.

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Could you show us a 55' boat with 65sq (10kW) meters of solar panels please[/QUOTE]

DDW said:

I think I'd probably be eating cold food and warm drinks, hoping the battery would charge faster.

The Silent website begs some questions though: Where did they get a battery powered electric motor with 98% conversion efficiency? That isn't even possible in the lab with small motors. The necessary inverter alone is likely to be at best low 90's. Not much detail given about what they are using but I'm curious. Giving a great benefit of doubt, let's say they achieve 100KWh from the solar in a day. That gives you 4 KW spread over 24 hours. About 6 hp, same as a very small outboard. More realistic is your 50 KWh estimate, so 3 hp. Provided you don't use the induction cooker much. Better have the wind and sea behind you.

Also, the Silent 64 is for sale, "located in the Mediterranean Sea". The video from 2018 left it in Florida. How did it get back to the Med? I'd like to hear that story. Deck of a ship? It'd be against the prevailing weather unless they went way north.

Click to expand...

DDW,,,didnt really think you could answer....either.

woolf said:

That is all broker brabble at Silent Yachts. For a state-of-the art renewably energy setup for an ocean cruising boat, one might better check the Gunboat 68 sailing catamarans. They actually sold 5 boats (>$5m/unit!!) so far. No genset required for house loads, due to the large horizontal surfaces available on a catamaran for solar panels, even with airco installed.

Still, they have conventional diesel propulsion for auxiliary power, no electric drives. Even with an open checkbook, sail still remains the prime propulsion system for low carbon footprint passages today, and a long way to go for an all-electric power ocean passagemaker, I would assume.

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Woolf, a 68 foot boat of course has more room for solar than does the 55' one I just referred to. And like almost every long distance sailboat, these electric ones also have gensets. Some guys make it sound like theyre hiding them.
And if you say those tech stats are 'babble', I had asked you how you coud fond out thr real stats. So if they say they can install a 300KwH blitium ion battery bank, and you say theyblie...what do you suppose the realm capacity is?

David. You need a calculator. Problem is not battery capacity, it's solar production capacity. Every surface on the boat is covered with panels. It generates 50kw per day on average - which is a lot. Enough to power a good sized house. But the boat underway consumes 10 kw per hour of travel. That gives you 5 hours of net-zero travel. After that, you either pull-over or stoke-up the generator. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but they advertise the thing as the "Tesla" of motoryachts. Tesla doesn't have a generator.

In the end DDW nailed it early on. Hydrocarbons have an amazing energy density. All those panels generate equivalent of maybe 30 gals of diesel per day assuming a 33% conversion rate of diesel.

This isn't magic. This is easy to find information. I don't understand why you are so defensive about this boat, especially since you don't own one. Are you an investor, or just a die hard contrarian? This isn't a naysayer, this is simple math.

My advice is to buy one of these and immediately set sail across an ocean.

Peter

PS - many sailboats have generators. I defy you to find one that has a 150KW generator. As a matter of fact, I defy you find a single recreational power vessel under about 300-feet that has a generator that size.

Mainship 400 propane from factory and if you had the flybridge summer kitchen had two fiberglass boxes on either side of the flybridge. With two each side (4 total ) smaller bottles. About 7-10 pound I’m guessing.

I just bought a Ocean Al 50 ft. Gas stove ignition does not work but the oven one does. Propane tank is overhead in the fly bridge and also supplies the nearby Magma. Needs a selenoid. I have been advised to switch to induction, because most marinas in my area (NC/SC) have phased out refill stations. I welcome your thoughts and opinions.

STroutman said:

I just bought a Ocean Al 50 ft. Gas stove ignition does not work but the oven one does. Propane tank is overhead in the fly bridge and also supplies the nearby Magma. Needs a selenoid. I have been advised to switch to induction, because most marinas in my area (NC/SC) have phased out refill stations. I welcome your thoughts and opinions.

Click to expand...

Welcome to TF!

Much as I hate answers like "it depends....," on this one, it really does depend. I forget if it was this thread or another similar one, but for me, I would do induction in a heartbeat because they are efficient, do not throw much excess heat, and cook very nicely....except I'd then end-up with an electric oven. There's another active thread on combination microwave/oven units that I might consider in the future.

So, it depends on your cooking needs and the available power. In summer in NC/SC, you will be running AC and may need to balance your power needs if you crank-up an oven for cooking.

For me, I'm not ready to switch away from propane. Like yourself, my propane locker is on the bridge and directly above my stove so a simple and safe installation. I will be keeping an induction hot-plate on the boat though - it's better than gas for slow cooking for stuff like rice, which tends to burn on a small gas burner.

Peter

STroutman said:

I just bought a Ocean Al 50 ft. Gas stove ignition does not work but the oven one does. Propane tank is overhead in the fly bridge and also supplies the nearby Magma. Needs a selenoid. I have been advised to switch to induction, because most marinas in my area (NC/SC) have phased out refill stations. I welcome your thoughts and opinions.

Click to expand...

I am not sure I have ever been to a marina with propane refills.


20# refillable tanks are easily available and many places they can be delivered/swapped out.


Carrying tanks that you need to take off the boat are still refillable in many ports either by a delivery truck or small enough, you can probably get them refilled. From what I read, many foreign ports also have the capability.