Change electric stove, install gas stove

Heres an article about the increased use of hybrid boats for thosexwho dont know about it.
Also, just checked and see that Hickley's electric boat uses BMW i3 batteries. https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/electric-revolution-could-you-ditch-the-diesel-72748

I'm fine with 30 amps too. The other big benefit to induction is dramatic reduction in excess heat. For small boats like ours, good benefit, at least in warmer climates. If I didn't enjoy baking and making pizza, would be a much easier decision on gas vs electric. The induction hobs are definitely a game changer for stove top.

mwweebles......"I realized ive pissed you off"....wrong on that too. I dont go by emotion, but by reason.

David Ess said:

mwweebles......"I realized ive pissed you off"....wrong on that too. I dont go by emotion, but by reason.

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Yikes! This has been reasoned thinking? Now that is a scary thought.

I need a better policy about feeding trolls......

Peter

mvweebles said:

Yikes! This has been reasoned thinking? Now that is a scary thought.

I need a better policy about feeding trolls......

Peter

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Yes, all my posts are reasoned ones, not emotional. It was a false assumption to suggest i was pissed off. I often point out false logic like that.

David Ess said:

Yes, all my posts are reasoned ones, not emotional. It was a false assumption to suggest i was pissed off. I often point out false logic like that.

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My apologies David. You just seem so angry and defensive. I guess I just assumed it was not your normal self. I stand corrected!

Best of luck on whatever you're looking for. There really is some good knowledge on this forum. But you do have to be open to it, not just use it as a platform to express yourself.

Peter

LOL (read this somewhere)
I am not arguing with you, I am merely explaining why I am right and you are not.

This oven works on an induction cooktop (it is aluminized steel). It heats up way faster than the propane oven without putting extra moisture and CO2 in the galley. Folds down and goes in a drawer when not in use. The interior is lightly smaller than my old propane oven, but big enough for us. Unfortunately, everybody seems to be out of them right now. Covid?

I took the microwave out when I bought my boat. A microwave is kind of limited and slower than the induction top. Seemed like a lot of space wasted on something only good for reheating coffee.

Marco Flamingo said:

This oven works on an induction cooktop (it is aluminized steel). I took the microwave out when I bought my boat. A microwave is kind of limited and slower than the induction top. Seemed like a lot of space wasted on something only good for reheating coffee.

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Marco - you actually use this and it works well? I remember them from when I was young and car-camping, but have never used one. I figured it was a bit of a gimmick.

We just had our galley totally remodeled - all old cabinets torn out, new ones built and installed. We agonized about the microwave - whether to keep it or replace with a cabinet. Like yourself, small boat with immediate consequences to space-related decisions. We use a MW a fair amount for reheating and par-cooking potatoes and such. In the end though, decided to ditch the MW and go with more cabinet storage. I'm a little worked I will miss it.

But......in keeping with OldDan's idea to ditch the propane range and replace with an induction cooktop and separate dual-purpose MW/Oven, I might be able to get the MW after all. Probably won't happen for us as we made the decision and remodel is almost complete. If I knew a year ago what I know now, I'd buy a combination oven and try it at home to see if it works well. Its been several years, but the old ones didn't work well as either a MW or an oven.

Peter

mvweebles said:

My apologies David. You just seem so angry and defensive. I guess I just assumed it was not your normal self. I stand corrected!

Best of luck on whatever you're looking for. There really is some good knowledge on this forum. But you do have to be open to it, not just use it as a platform to express yourself.

Peter

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Apology accepted for your false assumption. And Im open to people rebutting my strong and very controvsrsial statement that ie stoves are safer than gas ones. As soon as somebody shows that's wrong I'll be happy to concede the point. So far, nobody has.
And thanks for wishing us good luck. In fact we dont go by luck anymore than we do emotion. We analyze, and buy what we like the best(and it will be from a company that answers us, and not from any who dont, as per another thread on that.)

Sleeping Bear said:

As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.

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So stupidity
And if he would have drilled into his 240v power supply for the stove?

But if you aren't stupid
Have your gas bottles in a proper locker outside of the vessel (required by law here)
Have thermocouples for auto shutdown if flame goes out (required by law here)
And a sniffer
How then does it leak below?

David Ess said:

Sure...depends. A recent retro fit by some couple found that 4Kh of solar was adequate for all their needs, and i think they said they had everything. If one cant put that much in, then they might becable to go for larger storage, or run the genset more.

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We have 2.25 kW (9 x 250w panels) of solar taking up almost the entire roof space of a 60 fter.
No way could we get another 7 panels up there.

David Ess said:

rslifkin.....yes an actual breadmaker would be more efficient. And it would take up less space than that extra case of beer so many have on board.

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We have a breadmaker on board
Stopped using it after several months
No where near as good as the bread that comes out of the gas oven.

Marco Flamingo said:

Explosive gasses are a problem in addition to having an electrical system on your boat. It is a risk analysis issue. That doesn't mean that it isn't a risk. Understanding risk is great. Avoiding risk may be better.

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In assessing risk, hours of exposure are important. Every boat has an electrical system, but using it at high capacity whether from a genset or inverter to power a range increases the risk. That risk is absent with a propane range, replaced by the risk of a propane leak. This is also time limited to range use, as any properly installed propane system will have a shut off at the tank, which is topologically overboard.

There are risks to both. The problem in quantifying the difference, is that the absolute risk with either is vanishingly small. Dividing two very small numbers, each with a large potential estimation error, is meaningless. So while you might assert that electric is safer than gas by some imagined or theoretical consideration, there is no evidence for that assertion as both are statistically and provably safe. Many more people drown by falling overboard than are killed by either.

To David's obsession of space requirements for batteries, the power density of various battery technologies are very well documented. LA are about 60 Wh/L, LiCo about 550 Wh/L, and LFP about 330 Wh/L. So a 200 KWh LFP battery is at least 22 cu ft. Diesel by the way, is about 10,700 Wh/L, which is why electric trawlers will not be popular anytime soon. The same 22 cu ft tank will give you 6,400 KWh, about an order of magnitude better even after energy conversion efficiencies are considered.

David Ess said:

You could ask the guys at Alva Yachts, say for their 50 monohull....they offer either 110 or 240 KwH battery packs. Or do you think theyre new, and dont know what theyre talking about. I challenge you to find out the weight and dimentions of the 110 option, which is likeply enough for most people, and since you obviously dont know. Me and my partners would get the 240.

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Some info here

It seems a 20kwh bank is 408 kg and costs $19,000
A 110 kwh bank would be 2244 kg (5000 lb) and cost $100,000+

A 240kwh bank over 10,000lb and $200,000 +

https://www.commodoreaustralia.com.au/product/kratos-modular-lithium-battery-storage-system/

Add: this site has dimensions on an 18kwh bank
https://sunwatts.com/18-5-kwh-fortress-evault-lithium-battery/

No one has mentioned fuel cells. I wonder why.

Simi 60 said:

Some info here

It seems a 20kwh bank is 408 kg and costs $19,000
A 110 kwh bank would be 2244 kg (5000 lb) and cost $100,000+

A 240kwh bank over 10,000lb and $200,000 +

https://www.commodoreaustralia.com.au/product/kratos-modular-lithium-battery-storage-system/

Add: this site has dimensions on an 18kwh bank
https://sunwatts.com/18-5-kwh-fortress-evault-lithium-battery/

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Not sure if the Alva 50 uses those, but they offer them, so they must fit, and the weight dostribution too. Indeed, many boats have tons of balkast by other materials. One company thatvalso makes them is called Corvus, and we see Hinckley uses BMW i3 batteries in their electric boats.

David Ess said:

Not sure if the Alva 50 uses those, but they offer them, so they must fit, and the weight dostribution too.

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There are dozens of these "concept" boats online. Few if any ever actually get built. Not quite proven yet and I always have doubts about the far reaching claims.

Simi 60 said:

We have 2.25 kW (9 x 250w panels) of solar taking up almost the entire roof space of a 60 fter.
No way could we get another 7 panels up there.

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What? You don't have 29 m2 (>300sf) of unobstructed roof space?

I love these theoretical table-top exercises. They sound so wonderful until you break-down the numbers:

A 210kwh battery bank has a potential of about 715,000 Btu. What does a 210kw battery bank look like and what does it take to charge it?

- if traditional Flood Acid GC T105s, There are over 150 of them, cost almost $20,000, weigh over 7-tons, and occupy a space of over three cubic yards. Swapping them out every 5-years would likely take a week and a couple bottles of Ibuprofen.
- If you had a 200A alternator on each of two engines (400A total), it would take two full days of running to charge
- If you used the 16-panel array, it would take 10-full days to charge
- If you wanted to charge using a generator running a 250A charger, would likely take a 12KW generator and would take over 3.5 days. Or you could go to some sort of industrial 3-phase setup and get 500A of charging, but that's well beyond my pay-grade.

And for all that, you avoid burning the equivalent of around 15 gallons of diesel. ((715k Btu / 125K Btu per gal diesel) / 0.33 efficiency))

BTW - this line of thinking is very active in the sailing community. Jimmy Cornell, of World Cruising Routes fame, recently abandoned a solar-only project for a sailing cat, presumably due to some of the harsh realities of the above. Maybe he should talk to some of the new-breed of trawler builders. Sounds like they've cracked the code on a battery-powered trawler - apparently the sails on Cornell's cat inhibited efficiency.

Peter

boatpoker said:

There are dozens of these "concept" boats online. Few if any ever actually get built. Not quite proven yet and I always have doubts about the far reaching claims.

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Many hybrid electric boats have already been built.

David Ess said:

Many hybrid electric boats have already been built.

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Yes, there are hybrid boats out there in the real world. But even amongst new builds, they're a small minority. The tech is rapidly improving, but in many ways, it's just not there yet. For some use cases, it's adequate, but for many, it's either just not practical or doesn't provide much benefit.

rslifkin said:

Yes, there are hybrid boats out there in the real world. But even amongst new builds, they're a small minority. The tech is rapidly improving, but in many ways, it's just not there yet. For some use cases, it's adequate, but for many, it's either just not practical or doesn't provide much benefit.

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Thanks for conceding there are many already in the real world. But nobody ever said they were the majority, so i dont know why you even mentioned that. But YOU did say, " not there yet". Here are some at Yachtworld: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2021/silent-55-3620904/

Then there are some in New Zealand, Herley , and some in the US, Hinckly, some in germany, Alva. In Holland, in Norway, , Finland, Sweden.

David Ess said:

Thanks for conceding there are many already in the real world. But nobody ever said they were the majority, so i dont know why you even mentioned that. But YOU did say, " not there yet". Here are some at Yachtworld: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2021/silent-55-3620904/

Then there are some in New Zealand, Herley , and some in the US, Hinckly, some in germany, Alva. In Holland, in Norway, , Finland, Sweden.

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When I say "not there yet", I don't mean the tech doesn't exist. I mean that it hasn't reached a point of being affordable and practical for more than a narrow range of use cases. It'll get there at some point, but it hasn't yet.

rslifkin said:

When I say "not there yet", I don't mean the tech doesn't exist. I mean that it hasn't reached a point of being affordable and practical for more than a narrow range of use cases. It'll get there at some point, but it hasn't yet.

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Didnt even mention prices, but bogus point anyway since many million dollar + boats are sold. If you cant afford a Hinckley, or Alva, or Silent, or any of all those others, thats your problem, not the tech, or the companies that make them.

David Ess said:

Thanks for conceding there are many already in the real world. But nobody ever said they were the majority, so i dont know why you even mentioned that. But YOU did say, " not there yet". Here are some at Yachtworld: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2021/silent-55-3620904/

Then there are some in New Zealand, Herley , and some in the US, Hinckly, some in germany, Alva. In Holland, in Norway, , Finland, Sweden.

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Can pick dozens of far more capable and proven "real world" cruisers than that one that would leave over a million in the cruising kitty to pay for running and maintenance.

Very piss poor performance (or lack of)

Cruising ranges depend on load and power-generation variables. At around 5 knots, the 55 could cruise for 20 to 25 nautical miles with the A/C working. The top speed is probably around 14 knots, but for less than an hour. The Silent 55 that I got aboard in Spain had just completed a 70-nautical-mile passage between the closest bays of Mallorca and Ibiza. The passage took about 12 hours using only solar generation and stored battery power, at an average speed of 5.8 knots, Kohler said. Her diesel generator was not used at all, although on arrival, her batteries were almost empty

At an average 4-knot pace with the watermaker aboard, she’s virtually self-sustaining, Kohler says. She has the potential to achieve 100-nautical-mile days. With generator help at around 7 knots, she should manage 360 nautical miles before refilling her diesel tanks, which hold 159 gallons total.

https://www.yachtingmagazine.com/quiet-powercat/

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A long way from being anything like a cruising vessel in my eyes.

What happens when they decide to use the watermaker or heaven forbid....electric cooker

David Ess said:

Didnt even mention prices, but bogus point anyway since many million dollar + boats are sold. If you cant afford a Hinckley, or Alva, or Silent, or any of all those others, thats your problem, not the tech, or the companies that make them.

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Ah, but even in that price range, making one of those boats into a hybrid still drives the price up significantly compared to a conventional boat that's otherwise similar. That's where I'm going with the cost thing. It's not an issue of absolute cost so much as an issue of cost compared to other propulsion and electrical options.

David Ess said:

Didnt even mention prices, but bogus point anyway since many million dollar + boats are sold. If you cant afford a Hinckley, or Alva, or Silent, or any of all those others, thats your problem, not the tech, or the companies that make them.

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My mistake, I thought we were talking cruising boats, not something you run around the bay for a couple of hours.

rslifkin said:

But even amongst new builds, they're a small minority.

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Frankly, I think you over-state the case when you use the word "small." They are an absolutely TEENY-TINY minority. Pick any random boat, in any random marina, and I would bet you that your odds of winning the Powerball are WAY higher than the odds that the boat you picked was electric powered!

rslifkin said:

Ah, but even in that price range, making one of those boats into a hybrid still drives the price up significantly compared to a conventional boat that's otherwise similar. That's where I'm going with the cost thing. It's not an issue of absolute cost so much as an issue of cost compared to other propulsion and electrical options.

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They are NOT "making them into hybrids", many are designed from first principles to be so. And the original point was not about cost at all , but whether a 110KwH lithium battery pack can fit into a boat, and ive shown , several times, that they can be, and indeed are.

denverd0n said:

Frankly, I think you over-state the case when you use the word "small." They are an absolutely TEENY-TINY minority. Pick any random boat, in any random marina, and I would bet you that your odds of winning the Powerball are WAY higher than the odds that the boat you picked was electric powered!

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The discussion was about that its posioble to put such battey pacs in, and the answer is ...yes. And the numbers of hybrid/electric boats is increasing, be they cruising ones, ferry boats, tug boats or the hige super yachts. That huge 'Yacht A' is a hybrid. Its more a mattercof some guys in this forum just not being familiar woth the topic.