Change electric stove, install gas stove

Goodness David, you are argumentative,and dogmatic with it.
We slept well,over 10 years of ownership, on our previous boat with trouble free LPG. We wish the new one had it instead of electric.
In my experience boat insurers require an LPG system certification. So they should.

rolomart3 said:

Actually, Li Ion battery prices are running at about 43 cents per watthour. The battery pack would cost $8,600.
The good news is that cooking would take at most 1 kw-hour per day. The refrigerator probably would consum at about 2 kwh. That leaves us with the hot water tank an the Air Conditioner to be serviced with 16 kwhs. Now at the hook it is probably windy enough to make AC not necessary and in hot days hot water directly from a tank/watermaker would probably be available at one full 6-gallon tank per kwh.
In such a scenario, wr are talking about running the main for about 3.5 hours every two or three days.
And that is no longer magic. That is quite close to plain facts.
IMHO things are going to continue to get better for electric solutions as prices will continue to go down and substantial reductions on maintenance will make them the favorite and safe solutions for the DIY boater.

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Where can I find a lithium chemistry battery bank for anywhere close to $0.43/watt? Or is this for DIY build?

A 20kw bank is massive - a large bank for a house is 10kw. How would you charge such a bank on a boat? Given its almost certainly a 48 volt setup, how would you charge and step-down voltage to boat-voltage?

Point me in the direction of a 7kw bank (600AH) for $3000 and I'm all over it.

Peter

As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.

Sleeping Bear said:

As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.

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Exactly, its a heavier than air gas, and we know that detectors for it are not fool proof, thus some people cant even sleep roghtvwoth gas on board. New boats are going more towards electric induction...and they dont even take much power.

mwweebles. You can get as much battery capacity as you want. One boat we're loking at has 210KwH ...enough for everything on that 55' one. You charge with solar, wind, genset.

BruceK said:

Goodness David, you are argumentative,and dogmatic with it.
We slept well,over 10 years of ownership, on our previous boat with trouble free LPG. We wish the new one had it instead of electric.
In my experience boat insurers require an LPG system certification. So they should.

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Good thing I didnt say it was you, but somebody else who couldnt sleep with gas on board. Its also not clear how its...dogmatic....to hold the bold and controversial view that an ei stove is safer than a gas one.

What are some of the top yacht builders besides Hinckley? Does anybody know if they install propane stoves, or induction ones?

Sleeping Bear said:

As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.

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What about an oven? I totally get the benefits of induction cooktop (including energy efficiency), but I use an oven quite a bit. How do you handle this?

Thanks in advance -

Peter

Peter.......Re oven, you either get enough battery capacity, or bake when the genset or main motor is running.

David Ess said:

mwweebles. You can get as much battery capacity as you want. One boat we're loking at has 210KwH ...enough for everything on that 55' one. You charge with solar, wind, genset.

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David, before you rip-out responses on threads, suggest you do your homework. Nature of your response here clearly indicates you have no idea how big a 210 kwh bank of batteries is - equivalent to around 150 T105 Golf Cart batteries weighing almost 7-tons (or even 21 kwh if this is a typo as is common with your posts). You have no idea what a proper charging profile would be, and how much power it would take to charge a 210 kwh bank be it solar (acres), wind (think west Texas wind farm), or genset (50kw).

I know you're new to this and apparently have a purse full of cash to dump on a boat, but you might want to assume you're not the first to discover certain pearls of wisdom. Maybe.....just maybe, there are people on forums like this who stood in your shoes and asked the same questions (and found the right answers) 25+ years ago.

Peter

mwweebles......I just took another look at one of the boats were considering, the Silent 55, and could see the guy showing the battery bank. But I admit he didnt say the dimensions or weight. It fits on the 55, but maybe not on some guys 25 footer. But since you suggest you do....please tell us , then everybody could calculate if such would fit on their current boats. Or, if say a 100KwH capacity would.
"New to this"? The guys designing and building the boats that have those batteries arent. There are many hybrid/electric boats out thete these days.

mvweebles said:

What about an oven? I totally get the benefits of induction cooktop (including energy efficiency), but I use an oven quite a bit. How do you handle this?

Thanks in advance -

Peter

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Anyone use a convection/microwave oven? They are supposed to 'brown' and 'crisp'????

One example: Kalorik Steam Microwave Oven

So at the risk of starting another "fist fight", what is your opinion and recommendation? Can it totally replace the convectional oven and the microwave oven?
What brand of convection/microwave oven do you have and use? IF you use one, is your boat a 30 or 50 amp boat? Dose it draw more amps than your convention over?
I can see the advantage if one uses an induction stove top.... the current oven space can be recaptured via the combination of convection/microwave oven.

David Ess said:

mwweebles......I just took another look at one of the boats were considering, the Silent 55, and could see the guy showing the battery bank. But I admit he didnt say the dimensions or weight. It fits on the 55, but maybe not on some guys 25 footer. But since you suggest you do....please tell us , then everybody could calculate if such would fit on their current boats. Or, if say a 100KwH capacity would.
"New to this"? The guys designing and building the boats that have those batteries arent. There are many hybrid/electric boats out thete these days.

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I sure wish it was those guys on this thread. They'd be able to engage in a dialogue that involved real questions and intelligent answers that I could learn from.

Peter

OldDan1943 said:

Anyone use a convection microwave oven? They are supposed to 'brown' and 'crisp'????

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Something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085SV35MT/ref=twister_B08P3873NR?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

I like to bake bread. By the time the oven is warmed-up and the bread baked, it's at least an hour. Specs say 1000W of power, so around 80 AH @ 12vdc. I might give it a try - I have 800W of solar (~4kwh/day) and 700 AH LFP batteries installed. Might make sense for me after all. Wonder how well the combo oven works though.

EDIT - OldDan - looks like you updated your post. I have a 30A boat. I designed my solar/battery system to be off-grid capable indefinitely. But I have not actually tested it yet - boat is still in Ensenada have final touches to its refit (current finish date: March). To be frank, 2-years ago when I first started thinking through cooking, never occurred to me to get rid of my Seaward propane range. Overall, I like it a lot. I might re-think in the future, especially if the combo-oven is feasible from a cooking perspective. Pretty sure it is from a power-draw perspective. 80AH is not a lot of power.

Peter

At some point I'll be trying one of the microwave / convection oven combos, as currently we have no oven at all on board. Just the stove and microwave.

Efficiency of an oven is mostly related to how well it can distribute heat and how well insulated it is. That will matter far more than the fuel source.

I'll also agree that for those who like to bake a lot, an electric oven may not be practical, as the power requirements can start to get pretty high. For specifically turning electricity into bread, I wonder how much more efficient a dedicated bread maker is? Of course, that becomes another thing to store somewhere.

mvweebles said:

I sure wish it was those guys on this thread. They'd be able to engage in a dialogue that involved real questions and intelligent answers that I could learn from.

Peter

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You could ask the guys at Alva Yachts, say for their 50 monohull....they offer either 110 or 240 KwH battery packs. Or do you think theyre new, and dont know what theyre talking about. I challenge you to find out the weight and dimentions of the 110 option, which is likeply enough for most people, and since you obviously dont know. Me and my partners would get the 240.

rslifkin.....yes an actual breadmaker would be more efficient. And it would take up less space than that extra case of beer so many have on board.

Oh come on, now who's tossing out bogus comparisons. Alva Yachts are relatively large, innovative electric propulsion boats, we're talking about house supply here.

In my mind, it's almost tempting to ditch the generator for an equal weight of additional batteries. That would allow a lot more stuff to be run on battery/inverter. But the problem becomes that on a not-massive boat, there's only so much room for solar panels and wind generators, so generating enough power to keep up while away from shore power is a problem.

And in my mind, running a main engine for battery charging as a design choice is a non-starter. If that's necessary, the boat either needs a generator, or some changes to reduce power demand so that solar/wind alone can be sufficient.

kthoennes said:

Oh come on, now who's tossing out bogus comparisons. Alva Yachts are relatively large, innovative electric propulsion boats, we're talking about house supply here.

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Its a 50' long distance boat, with CE-A rating, which means anywhere. IF they can fit them in that 50 boat...THEN anybody else should be able to. Many here say they have boats longer than 50'. I wonder what the weightvand dimensions of the 110KwH are. But ill bet nobody finds out.

David Ess said:

Its a 50' long distance boat, with CE-A rating, which means anywhere. IF they can fit them in that 50 boat...THEN anybody else should be zble to. Many here say they have boats longer than 50'. I wonder what the weightvand dimensions of the 110KwH are. But ill bet nobody finds out.

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Making it fit is one thing, but the question is what compromises were made to make space (and weight capacity) for that much battery? And just because you can fit it into a new build 50 footer doesn't mean it would fit readily into an existing boat with already chosen locations for bulkheads, engines, etc. Especially without giving up every ounce of storage space.

rslifkin said:

In my mind, it's almost tempting to ditch the generator for an equal weight of additional batteries. That would allow a lot more stuff to be run on battery/inverter. But the problem becomes that on a not-massive boat, there's only so much room for solar panels and wind generators, so generating enough power to keep up while away from shore power is a problem.

And in my mind, running a main engine for battery charging as a design choice is a non-starter. If that's necessary, the boat either needs a generator, or some changes to reduce power demand so that solar/wind alone can be sufficient.

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Sure...depends. A recent retro fit by some couple found that 4Kh of solar was adequate for all their needs, and i think they said they had everything. If one cant put that much in, then they might becable to go for larger storage, or run the genset more.

rslifkin said:

Making it fit is one thing, but the question is what compromises were made to make space (and weight capacity) for that much battery? And just because you can fit it into a new build 50 footer doesn't mean it would fit readily into an existing boat with already chosen locations for bulkheads, engines, etc. Especially without giving up every ounce of storage space.

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We have no idea, because nobody in this forum knows how much space 110KwH battery pack takes. And if nobody researches it, we'll never know. And if me and my partners were to buy that very boat, we probably wouldnt reaserch it either, since wecknow it fits, and even the twice as big one does.

David Ess said:

You could ask the guys at Alva Yachts, say for their 50 monohull....they offer either 110 or 240 KwH battery packs. Or do you think theyre new, and dont know what theyre talking about. I challenge you to find out the weight and dimentions of the 110 option, which is likeply enough for most people, and since you obviously dont know. Me and my partners would get the 240.

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I know how to figure out what is enough for any given use-case. It's an accounting exercise where you count what goes out (energy consumers) against what goes in (charging sources). And I know what is enough for me as I've done the research on my in/out devices, and done the math to develop an energy budget.

Here's an example of an energy budget worksheet for a boat. https://pacificcup.org/kb/energy-management

I don't know the builders you're talking about so I can't comment on whether they know what they're talking about. If they're putting 210kw battery banks on a boat, it's a much different boat. For comparison, Tesla batteries are 50kw - 100kw, one-quarter to half the size of what you're referencing. I have a relatively large battery bank at 700AH - the larger Tesla battery is over 10x the size of mine. To charge that takes a massive amount of power - the newest Tesla giga-stations can pump over 250kw an hour into the car. For comparison, my 1500 sf house in Florida uses about 3000 kw per year.

David, I realize you put a lot of confidence in companies that build websites. Boat builders come and go, some have great ideas, some don't. This forum has quite a few people who at some point in their life made a living in the marine industry (myself included - full time delivery skipper for about 5-years, mostly Nordhavns). I realize I've pissed you off along the way which is fine - feeling is mutual. But don't dismiss the countless others who bring rock-solid information and perspective. During my refit, I've reached out to TF's bigger brain countless times and have gotten great answers. Comodave, Simi 60, OC Diver, and others. These guys know their stuff. My experience with boat builders is they are well meaning, but all too often do not have deep cruising experience so they end up being marketers and constructors who happen to build in fiberglass (or steel/aluminum/whatever). Sooner or later you'll figure that out, but right now you're smitten. I get it - we all go through that phase.

Best success to you David. I hope you find what you're looking for and I hope it works out well. I'd strongly suggest you consider ending more of your sentences with a question mark versus an exclamation point. May also want to try a spell-checker/grammar-checker from time to time.

Peter

mvweeblws......You say you dont know if Alva Yachts know what theyre talking about, nor presumably ALL those other electric and hybrid boat builders that are actually, in real life, building such boats. Accepted.....you admit you dont know. But its a false assumption to say that I dont. Many well established companies are going hybrid and electric, with large litium ion nattery capacity.

David Ess said:

mvweeblws......You say you dont know if Alva Yachts know what theyre talking about, nor presumably ALL those other electric and hybrid boat builders that are actually, in real life, building such boats. Accepted.....you admit you dont know. But its a false assumption to say that I dont. Many well established companies are going hybrid and electric, with large litium ion nattery capacity.

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Nice contribution to the thread. I'm sure the OP is thankful that he now knows that not only should he get rid of his propane range, but change his propulsion too.

The boat builder graveyard is littered with hybrid builders, and diesel electric builders, and all sorts of builders. If you'd ask questions, you might get some enlightening answers from people who have been curious about this for much longer than you have.

My considered goal is to change to a 2 burner induction stove top and depending upon the reviews and recommendations of actual usage on a boat, replace the current oven with a convection/microwave oven. Granted, I can cook and live with the current configuration of 3 burner Force 10 (Princess was bought out by the Force 10 people) stove and oven plus the standard microwave....
I have a 30 amp boat, a 6KW generator, 2x130watt solar panels and 3x4D (3X200amp) AGM house batteries. (plus another 4D start battery) and a 40amp charger
I have learned successfully learned the very famous, "30amp load shedding/planning and timing dance' successfully, without the boat going dark.
First suggestion: put an AMP meter in the galley so you can watch the increasing AMP demand and make corrections.
#2 shut down the electric water heater, 11 gal. The water will stay hot for at least one "navy shower" and washing dishes. (I also have the main engine coolant set up to heat the hot water.)
#3 rotating the electric burners.... the element will stay hot for a few minutes while shifting to another burner, same with the oven.
#4 I have a 1800 watt inverter, I can put the microwave on it but, microwave oven does suck down the 3 house batteries voltage quickly.

AND if I elect to do all the modifications as stated in the first sentence, I can get one more cupboard.

OldDan1943 said:

My considered goal is to change to a 2 burner induction stove top and depending upon the reviews and recommendations of actual usage on a boat, replace the current oven with a convection/microwave oven. Granted, I can cook and live with the current configuration of 3 burner Force 10 (Princess was bought out by the Force 10 people) stove and oven plus the standard microwave....
I have a 30 amp boat, a 6KW generator, 2x130watt solar panels and 3x4D (3X200amp) AGM house batteries. (plus another 4D start battery) and a 40amp charger
I have learned successfully learned the very famous, "30amp load shedding/planning and timing dance' successfully, without the boat going dark.
First suggestion: put an AMP meter in the galley so you can watch the increasing AMP demand and make corrections.
#2 shut down the electric water heater, 11 gal. The water will stay hot for at least one "navy shower" and washing dishes. (I also have the main engine coolant set up to heat the hot water.)
#3 rotating the electric burners.... the element will stay hot for a few minutes while shifting to another burner, same with the oven.
#4 I have a 1800 watt inverter, I can put the microwave on it but, microwave oven does suck down the 3 house batteries voltage quickly.

AND if I elect to do all the modifications as stated in the first sentence, I can get one more cupboard.

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OldDan - what problem are you trying to solve by going electric? For me, you tickled the answer at the end - gain a cabinet (similar sized boat). I'd still have propane aboard for BBQ.

Im so conflicted....

mvweebles said:

Nice contribution to the thread. I'm sure the OP is thankful that he now knows that not only should he get rid of his propane range, but change his propulsion too.

The boat builder graveyard is littered with hybrid builders, and diesel electric builders, and all sorts of builders. If you'd ask questions, you might get some enlightening answers from people who have been curious about this for much longer than you have.

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Good thing i didnt tell anybody to do anything. But i DID make the bold and controversial opinion that ei stoves are safer than gas ones. I never even mentioned his propulsion. Ask questions? I did ask you, and you admitted you didnt know the dimensions or weight of a 110KwH battery pack. And youve shown that you apparently also dont know that many big established builders are going hybrid, using equipment by big established suppliers, like Siemens, RollsRoyce, etc.

mvweebles said:

OldDan - what problem are you trying to solve by going electric? For me, you tickled the answer at the end - gain a cabinet (similar sized boat). I'd still have propane aboard for BBQ.

Im so conflicted....

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I too have a propane grill on board.
I have a total electric galley and trying to make the boat "better" for me the next owner? LOL

As I said, once I learned the "30amp dance", I am content to live with what I have.
If one does not put a separate amp meter in the galley, one will constantly go fwd to check on the amp draw and trend. I use an analog meter and put a piece of red tape at the 30amp level.