Change electric stove, install gas stove

Nobody is saying that electricity isn't also dangerous. I've been working my way through the Pacific Yacht Specialty videos on YouTube. Good stuff and lots of "shocking" lessons. I've been re-doing a lot of my old electrical. I've gotten a shock once (unmarked 120V AC terminal touched with a socket wrench) and made more than a few 12V sparks. But sparks can't result in a propane explosion if there is no propane onboard. I think of getting propane off as just another layer of safety. Some see an electric stove as inconvenient, like wearing a block foam PFD. But the new induction stoves, like the new PFDs, have addressed many of the old complaints.

My present propane stove doesn't have thermocouples on the burners. They are available ($35 ea), but I haven't found info on retrofitting them. It would be nice to upgrade 1820's gas stove technology to include this safety feature (and probably required by the ABYC). A new stove/oven that has thermocouples is $1,000 to $1,500. Thankfully, there are other choices.

My common routine is to start dinner before anchoring for the evening if it will involve a long cooking time (e.g. a pot roast in the pressure cooker is 45 minutes). That means basically zero battery usage for cooking once anchored. Mornings are usually espresso (3-4 minutes and negligible amps). Sometimes two cups. I don't usually cook for breakfast in the morning. So for me, a little house battery and a solar panel is sufficient.

Propane requires me to try to adjust the flame down low enough (almost impossible) and making sure that the window by the stove isn't open enough to blow out the flame. I need something open for fresh air and to try to limit condensation. Propane is a crude system, and I've had them all. My first boat had a wood cook stove (which I preferred to propane). Where I cruise, scrap wood was more readily available than propane. I haven't looked lately.

Making the decision as to which stove/oven obviously depends on where and how you boat. If I used the oven twice a day every time I was aboard, that feature becomes really important. If I bake three times a year, I would forego the oven and come up with a work around. Same with having three burners. Personally, although cooking on board is one of my favorite activities, I've never needed three at once. Your mileage will undoubtedly vary.

David Ess said:

Another bogus comparison. The one we are talking about is gas stoves compared to electric induction ones. Has that heavier than air gas ever leaked to the bottom of a boat and blew it up? Yes. An electric one? Ive never heard of such. In fact, do boat insurers consider whether there is gas on board?

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Bogus comparison yourself.
Very few boats have electric stoves as they are only a recent thing.

Far more have gas or metho.

I always love these gas-is-dangerous conversations. Risk is customarily calculated across impact if it happens vs probability that it might. Clearly, impact if a gas explosion occurs is extreme. But what about probability? Extremely low. Now what? What do you do about evaluating a high-impact but low-probability event?

Example: Suppose it was 10x more likely that you would die of a meteorite strike if you live between certain latitudes. Sounds ominous - better move, right? But if that 10x more likely equated to 1 in one-trillion vs one in ten-trillion? It's ten times more likely, but probability is still infinitesimal.

Of all the risks to worry about, having a propane stove blow-up is a long way down the list. Right after whether orange Crocs make my thighs look fat (note - I neither own nor wear Crocs of any color)?

I don't like electric boats because I don't like being forced to run a generator, especially 0400 when I want a cup of coffee. You want to talk about risk? Try waking-up my dearly beloved Cheryll at 4AM - risk-impact and probability of bodily harm are significant.

For me, a properly setup and sized solar system works well for small appliances. For bulk-cooking, gas stove/oven is the right answer for me. To each their own.

Peter

Simi 60 said:

Bogus comparison yourself.
Very few boats have electric stoves as they are only a recent thing.

Far more have gas or metho.

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I wouldn't say they're all that recent. My boat was built with an electric (coil top, not induction) stove in 1986. I'm pretty sure the builder figured "well, it already has a generator and we can't find a good spot for a propane locker, so just put an electric stove in".

Marco Flamingo said:

Some see an electric stove as inconvenient, like wearing a block foam PFD. But the new induction stoves, like the new PFDs, have addressed many of the old complaints.

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Ah, what memories! I used to have nothing but those WW2 PFDs which were loaded with blocks of cork. Horrible things, they were.

Simi 60 said:

Bogus comparison yourself.
Very few boats have electric stoves as they are only a recent thing.

Far more have gas or metho.

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It was the comparison, gas vs electric.....in boats........the latter is safer. Anybody can have a safer boat by installing such.

mvweebles.....It was NOT a "gas is dangerous' conversation, but that gas is more dangerous than electric induction stvoes, on boats. Nobody can try to claim gas is safer. You also posed a false dichotomy, ...coffee at 0400, by running a genetator, or no coffee. There is a third alternative......to have enough battery power to boil a coffee maker.

Lsrifkin...exactly...not even recent.

rslifkin said:

I wouldn't say they're all that recent. My boat was built with an electric (coil top, not induction) stove in 1986. I'm pretty sure the builder figured "well, it already has a generator and we can't find a good spot for a propane locker, so just put an electric stove in".

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OK, well been in the boat building game in Oz since the early 80's and on this side of the pond, electric stoves in boats is a novelty/rarity.

This is an older pie chart but it confirms what we already know, most boat fires are electrical. To state that electric cook tops are safer, its a difficult statistic to gather. If there is a cooktop related fire, it isn't recorded as electric cooktop but just "electrical" causation. It isn't just the cooktop but the supporting electrical connections, wire sizing, proper fuses, etc. Same with propane stove, it isn't just the stove but propane storage, propane hoses, etc.

One can't make the statement propane is more dangerous that electrical as the statistics don't exist. What you can say is that the majority of boat fires are electrical and electrical cooking poses the same risk (or more) than electrical items on the rest of the boat - higher amperage draw with all that implies.

Everything on a boat is a risk, trusting a hull to keep you dry is a risk, trusting cable steering is a risk, especially when those cables are really old. If we judged hulls on safety, I suspect steel hulls would be the safest, at least here in the PNW and coastal BC (thinking log strikes here), yet most hulls are fiberglass. We don't always use the statistically safest technique, procedure or construct. What we can do is look at the pie chart and we see fuel fires are 5 % and of that propane fires would be a very low statistic of all fuel fires.

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/201...onnections, chafed,in parallel, or vice versa.

Simi 60 said:

OK, well been in the boat building game in Oz since the early 80's and on this side of the pond, electric stoves in boats is a novelty/rarity.

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Interesting. Starting in at least the 1970s in the US, the ubiquitous Princess electric range was the most common cooking appliance on motoryachts of more than 40-feet. I'd guess that since the mid 1990's or so, that started to change as many boats shoe-horned in high-end household appliances like Jennair.

Peter

David Ess said:

mvweebles.....It was NOT a "gas is dangerous' conversation, but that gas is more dangerous than electric induction stvoes, on boats. Nobody can try to claim gas is safer. You also posed a false dichotomy, ...coffee at 0400, by running a genetator, or no coffee. There is a third alternative......to have enough battery power to boil a coffee maker.

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So I ask you Mr. Right-Fighter.....what's easier to install safely. A propane stove, or a hi-amp battery bank, especially a LiFePo4 one? You don't think anyone has been injured by sulfuric acid on FLA batteries? You don't think the fumes have ever exploded? You don't agree that electrical fires are a common source of fire on boats?

If you look at the BoatUS charts, 55% of boat fires are AC or DC. 18% are "other" and 11% are unknown - a total of 29%. Assume all of these are propane. Still leaves AC/DC as 2x more likely to cause a fire. Maybe propane would be more catastrophic, but to argue electricity is safe and propane is dangerous is not supported by the BoatUS data.

Don't get me wrong, I have a hi-amp LFP battery bank, but to say these are perfectly safe and that propane is dangerous, well, you may want to spend a bit more time on your keyboard.....

Peter

David Ess said:

It was the comparison, gas vs electric.....in boats........the latter is safer. Anybody can have a safer boat by installing such.

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Prove it.

mvweebles said:

So I ask you Mr. Right-Fighter.....what's easier to install safely. A propane stove, or a hi-amp battery bank, especially a LiFePo4 one? You don't think anyone has been injured by sulfuric acid on FLA batteries? You don't think the fumes have ever exploded? You don't agree that electrical fires are a common source of fire on boats?

Don't get me wrong, I have a hi-amp LFP battery bank, but to say these are perfectly safe and that propane is dangerous, well, you may want to spend a bit more time on your keyboard.....

Peter

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My thoughts on it are more along the lines of, most of us are going to have a decent size electrical system that has to be made safe regardless of gas or electric stove. So what's easier to achieve a higher level of safety with: a slightly bigger electrical system or a whole separate system containing pressurized flammable stuff?

rslifkin said:

My thoughts on it are more along the lines of, most of us are going to have a decent size electrical system that has to be made safe regardless of gas or electric stove. So what's easier to achieve a higher level of safety with: a slightly bigger electrical system or a whole separate system containing pressurized flammable stuff?

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Umm.....not picking an argument, but aren't you the guy with gassers?

mvweebles said:

Umm.....not picking an argument, but aren't you the guy with gassers?

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Yes. Which is exactly why I don't need to add pressurized flammable stuff to my liquid flammable stuff. And then have one more system on the list of things that could kill me if something goes wrong.

Rsn48....its still bogus because by....fuel......they dont mean propane stoves.....but the fuel for the motors, usually diesel. So still, nobody is showing any proper comparison. And if say a boat explodes by leaking propane , and you dont want to call that a dangerous stove....well.....nothing more to talk about. Summary...nobody knows if a electric induction stove is safer than a propane one.

mvweebles said:

Umm.....not picking an argument, but aren't you the guy with gassers?

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The latter, and its why boats are going more towards electrical, instead of more by propane. They COULD use propane for many other things ...but they dont. Space heating, hot water, refridgeration, motor fuel, lighting, etc.

rslifkin - my guess is you're all set and have a great setup for your needs. But....if starting from scratch, given the added complexity of ignition protection for gassers, not sure a large battery system with a ton of switches and connections is necessarily safer than a propane system, especially since a gas boat has enhanced ventilation systems to evacuate combustible gases.

I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm really comfortable with my decision to run propane for primary cooking, and use solar/battery for small appliances such as an induction hob, an instapot, and an electric tea kettle. But to suggest that one approach is safe and the other is not is just plain wrong. It's parroting back Internet chatter and not based in facts. Running a 30-amp circuit at near 30-amps due to having a range, water heater, A/C, etc. isn't exactly a good idea either (see picture in BoatUS article).

Peter

mvweebles said:

rslifkin - my guess is you're all set and have a great setup for your needs. But....if starting from scratch, given the added complexity of ignition protection for gassers, not sure a large battery system with a ton of switches and connections is necessarily safer than a propane system, especially since a gas boat has enhanced ventilation systems to evacuate combustible gases.

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Concerns like that (and certain parts not coming in ignition protected versions) are why as much of my electrical system as practical is outside of the gasoline containing spaces. And that's also why I'm not going as far as planning to run the stove and other high draw items on battery / inverter. Being able to run the coffee maker, toaster, and stuff like that without the generator is good, but firing up the generator (and listening to it and the blowers) is no big deal when I need the stove away from the dock.

If I were truly designing from scratch, the boat wouldn't have gassers in it.

mvweebles said:

rslifkin - my guess is you're all set and have a great setup for your needs. But....if starting from scratch, given the added complexity of ignition protection for gassers, not sure a large battery system with a ton of switches and connections is necessarily safer than a propane system, especially since a gas boat has enhanced ventilation systems to evacuate combustible gases.

I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm really comfortable with my decision to run propane for primary cooking, and use solar/battery for small appliances such as an induction hob, an instapot, and an electric tea kettle. But to suggest that one approach is safe and the other is not is just plain wrong. It's parroting back Internet chatter and not based in facts.

Peter

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Glad i didnt say one is safe and the other isnt. I said that an electric stove is safer than a gas one.

rslifkin said:

Concerns like that (and certain parts not coming in ignition protected versions) are why as much of my electrical system as practical is outside of the gasoline containing spaces. And that's also why I'm not going as far as planning to run the stove and other high draw items on battery / inverter. Being able to run the coffee maker, toaster, and stuff like that without the generator is good, but firing up the generator (and listening to it and the blowers) is no big deal when I need the stove away from the dock.

If I were truly designing from scratch, the boat wouldn't have gassers in it.

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Yes, and most new boats, designing from scratch, are going more electric.

Newtrawlerowner said:

Great information. The 400 has a summer kitchen at the rear of the flybridge. I will add solenoid in locker and propane sensor in main salon. And if they are like a CO sensor they probably have a 5-7 year life. I'm removing headliner due to damage and replacing radar so running propane line will be easier.

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The 400's that I used to deliver had a propane locker on the port side "overhang", just on the the water side of the seating.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have ordered our boat with propane. For years I looked into changing it, but the plus's do not warrant it.

I saw it noted and I agree. We normally are on the hook, and when it's time to cook we turn on the genset (which is very quiet) and use the time to charge the batteries (yes, we do have solar panels, but find we need the genset about an hour anyway) and to make hot water (for those who say to use the engines, my engines are louder than the genset and we do like to stay for days / weeks in one place).

My suggestion, something that I am going to look into, is an induction oven.

Enjoy!

IntoTheBlue said:

If I had to do it all over again, I would have ordered our boat with propane. For years I looked into changing it, but the plus's do not warrant it.

I saw it noted and I agree. We normally are on the hook, and when it's time to cook we turn on the genset (which is very quiet) and use the time to charge the batteries (yes, we do have solar panels, but find we need the genset about an hour anyway) and to make hot water (for those who say to use the engines, my engines are louder than the genset and we do like to stay for days / weeks in one place).

My suggestion, something that I am going to look into, is an induction oven.

Enjoy!

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Interesting. How did you decide on ordering electric in the first place?

Steve Dashew writes about going electric 10 years ago. They sampled induction with a two burner hot plate and installed a permanent cook top based on satisfaction. I think he had gas prior. He said he used a Panasonic electric oven that worked well and was very efficient.

Does induction technology extend to ovens?

Simi 60 said:

So do I but the battery bank alone probably cost about $20,000 here

And when you aren't running the engine, what charges the battery then?
Magic?

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Actually, Li Ion battery prices are running at about 43 cents per watthour. The battery pack would cost $8,600.
The good news is that cooking would take at most 1 kw-hour per day. The refrigerator probably would consum at about 2 kwh. That leaves us with the hot water tank an the Air Conditioner to be serviced with 16 kwhs. Now at the hook it is probably windy enough to make AC not necessary and in hot days hot water directly from a tank/watermaker would probably be available at one full 6-gallon tank per kwh.
In such a scenario, wr are talking about running the main for about 3.5 hours every two or three days.
And that is no longer magic. That is quite close to plain facts.
IMHO things are going to continue to get better for electric solutions as prices will continue to go down and substantial reductions on maintenance will make them the favorite and safe solutions for the DIY boater.

rolomart3 said:

Actually, Li Ion battery prices are running at about 43 cents per watthour. The battery pack would cost $8,600.
.

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You did see the bit where I said here?
Here being Australia

And your $8600usd is still near 4x more than our AGM bank

David Ess said:

Another bogus comparison. The one we are talking about is gas stoves compared to electric induction ones. Has that heavier than air gas ever leaked to the bottom of a boat and blew it up? Yes. An electric one? Ive never heard of such. In fact, do boat insurers consider whether there is gas on board?

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You have heard of gas lockers,thermocouples and sniffers right?

Explain how the heavier than air gas can make it to the bottom of the boat?

David Ess said:

In fact, do boat insurers consider whether there is gas on board?

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No boat insurer has ever asked me that question.

I changed out my electric range for a propane one. I did it because I don't want to run the genset to make tea. And also because if I can run the oven for an hour without the genset (batteries and induction don't do that).

Paranoia about your propane stove blowing up is misplaced, in that it is far down the list of risks you take every day. The risk of blowing up with your propane stove and getting electrocuted by your induction cooktop are effectively equal, and effectively zero. Worry instead about a heart attack, or drowning, or alien abduction - all are more likely.

Simi 60 said:

Prove it.

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Oh, you make it so easy. Electricity does cause fires on a boat. Usually, it is the unfused circuits in the engine room, but we could claim that it is other things, maybe a bilge pump. Okay, do you have an electric bilge pump? Yes? So the boat with a propane stove and one with an electric stove have the same likelihood of electrical fires started by the electric bilge pump. You can go through the entire rest of the electrical system. Same is same. The only difference is the stove. Let's say one is electric and one is propane.

Now, what is the electric stove? Is it induction or is it the old school electric that doesn't have an automatic timer that turns it off after 15 minutes? Does it a have a heat detecting surface that limits it to the selected temperature like induction? Does it have a sensor that turns automatically turns off the stove the pot is removed like induction? Wouldn't that be great on a propane stove? Take the pot off and it turns off? Much safer, but sorry, that option isn't available. Nor the heat detector. Nor timer. Nor temperature sensor.

Oh, and there is no open flame. (Open flame, for you kids, is a cooking method common in 16,000 B.C.)

Kidding aside, electric can be a problem. Any connection could create a spark (fresh water pump, inverter, engine room lights, macerator, toilet, starter, etc.). Do you have any of those? It isn't really a problem if as long as you don't have explosive gasses in your bilge. You don't have explosive gasses in your bilge do you???? Fortunately, explosive gases don't come from electrical wires. Guess where they come from?

Explosive gasses are a problem in addition to having an electrical system on your boat. It is a risk analysis issue. That doesn't mean that it isn't a risk. Understanding risk is great. Avoiding risk may be better.