Double the expense?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
T

TheDory

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2020
Messages
90
Location
USA
Hello, when it comes to maintenance expenses, I'm curious if those of you who own motorsailers find the maintenance expenses are significantly higher than those of a trawler? Our retirement dream is to have a winter liveaboard and cruise the east coast, Bahamas, Caribbean, and wherever else we choose. Although I am a sailor, and love nothing more than turning of the motor and sailing, I can see the value in having a trawler for liveaboard space, overall comfort, and ease of getting where we want to go.

I'm attracted to Island Packet SP Cruiser's because they seem to make a great pilothouse trawler with a comfortable layout and also the ability to sail when conditions are right. A mainsail to help stabilize the boat and also help with fuel efficiency could be nice as well.

But, as anyone who's owned a sailboat knows, sailing isn't exactly free. Maintaining all the rigging and sails is extremely expensive. Any fuel savings are lost just with the cost of replacing some jib sheets. The cost of a new block or two equals an engine tune-up. You could probably perform a major engine overhaul for the price of new sails.

Have you found the additional costs of maintaining the sails and rigging really negates the benefits of having a motorsailer vs strictly a trawler?
 
As someone just exploring the idea of getting into cruising, I'm wondering about the same sorts of thing.
Lack of responses here speaks volumes in a way....
 
I guess you should also consider the number of bridges you have to clear before making your great escape out to sea.

Bridges can hold you up and in very heavy weather, the are locked down and you might get stuck away from your home dock.
 
Sails dont really stabilize a boat unless the wind is from the right direction. You know from your sailing experience how infrequently that happens. When powering most of the time the sail will be luffing

IMO motor sailors done do either well. And I dont see you really lowering your expenses

Buy the right powerboat for your lifestyle.

My first year after buying a powerboat I was nervous when off shore because if the engines failed I had no sails. It never happened and with fully independent twins one failure didn't matter.
 
Probably so few responses because there are so few motorsailers out there.
 
Bruckmann 50. A little more sailer than motor compared to many motorsailers, but very good performance while motoring. Build quality very hard to find in any trawler.

Yeah it costs more to maintain. I own a trawler and a sailboat, just getting quotes on a new mainsail, last one cost $23K. That pays for a lot of diesel.
 
Hi TheDory,

Yes, few responses from motorsailer owners, as I share the sentiment that there simply aren't many motorsailers, and thus few owners to comment.

In response to your original posted question, I doubt cost of maintenance is much of a detriment to motorsailer ownership. Rather, (in my opinion, of course), the major detriment is simply that motorsailers do nothing well. They epitomize the reality that "all boats are a compromise". Motorsailers simply drive those compromises to the limit of usefulness, where they do nothing very well for anyone.

Hence, the VERY limited market.

Regards,

Pete
 
DDW said:
Yeah it costs more to maintain. I own a trawler and a sailboat, just getting quotes on a new mainsail, last one cost $23K. That pays for a lot of diesel.
Click to expand...

Yep, last sailing vessel I was involved in, cost of rig and sails would have motored us around the planet a couple of times.

Continually amazed how these days its pretty rare to see a sailing vessel actually sailing
Recently back from a 6 mth cruise and we'd see the same sailboats/motorsailors , mostly frenchy cats and mono's doing the same passages as us, mostly after a blow so sloppy conditions and motoring but not doing it comfortably or well.

A hell of a lot of money spent on a vessel that is the worst of both worlds. ;)
 
"A hell of a lot of money spent on a vessel that is the worst of both worlds."

Maybe. On the other hand, my Fales 32 is a motorsailer that is a confortable, seawothy, full displacement trawler. that cruises at hull speed while sipping fuel.

I find that the sails will work good enough off the wind and really stabilize the boat.

But, the main reason is I keep her in a private sailing club that does not allow strictly power boats in a slip. My cost for a slip and membership is half the local going rate. Plus good friends made over the years. Having a motorsailer allows access.

Chesley
 
csugg said:
"A hell of a lot of money spent on a vessel that is the worst of both worlds."

Maybe. On the other hand, my Fales 32 is a motorsailer that is a confortable, seawothy, full displacement trawler. that cruises at hull speed while sipping fuel.
Click to expand...

No offence intended

I was more thinking Lagoon type cats
Dont motor that well in the slop and dont sail well at all in under 20 knot air
Have half the interior space of ours yet cost 5 x plus the money to buy.
 
If buying a boat with rig and sails already on, that is one thing
Doing it after the fact is another

I know of a guy in Oz who made his vessel into a "motorsailor" with a pretty basic rig but I did get him to admit that he will never recoup his expenditure in fuel savings in his lifetime even though he is full time cruising.
 
Simi 60 said:
I was more thinking Lagoon type cats
Click to expand...
Lagoon cats (and most Condo type cats) don't sail well at all. But I am also surprised by the number of good sailboats I see motoring, in ideal sailing conditions. Many of them with pushbutton sails so that the effort required is small. The owners would be better served by a trawler. It depends a great deal on the area, I've noticed that in areas with undependable wind, owners get used to motoring a lot and that is what they do. In tradewind areas, or SF Bay where my sailboat is now, the wind is a constant and you see a much higher percentage of sailboats actually sail (but the Lagoons of the world still motor a fair bit).
 
I always thought some motorsailers would make dandy trawlers if you took the masts off. Or maybe shorten 1 for a boom to launch the dingy. Slippery hull, small engine. Run at hull speed.
Thinking of the Fisher's or Nauticat maybe. Always thought they looked 'salty'.
 
With some...such as the Nordhavn model...I don't understand the thought it does nothing well. From my novice perspective looking from the outside.... it looks like it's 100% trawler if you chop of the mast.

I can believe it doesn't sail especially well...but if you're not i a hurry why does that even matter?...
why isn't it a good trawler?... the only downsides I can think of from that perspective are
the air draft
and all the lines and winches cluttering up the place...
What am I missing?
 
Solly said:
I always thought some motorsailers would make dandy trawlers if you took the masts off. Or maybe shorten 1 for a boom to launch the dingy. Slippery hull, small engine. Run at hull speed.
Thinking of the Fisher's or Nauticat maybe. Always thought they looked 'salty'.
Click to expand...

Ever been on a ballasted sailing vessel in a seaway that lost its rig?
 
skyhawk said:
With some...such as the Nordhavn model...I don't understand the thought it does nothing well. From my novice perspective looking from the outside.... it looks like it's 100% trawler if you chop of the mast.

I can believe it doesn't sail especially well...but if you're not i a hurry why does that even matter?...
why isn't it a good trawler?... the only downsides I can think of from that perspective are
the air draft
and all the lines and winches cluttering up the place...
What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Interior space and extra comfort
 
I bought my motorsailer for roughly the same cost as the cruiser version of the same boat. The regular version was one of the most popular Australian built boats in the 1980's. With a very round bilge section and a relatively shallow full length keel, the cruiser version suffered from extreme rolling motion with a swell on the beam.

The motorsailer version solved this problem. Raising the sails stops all rolling with 10 knots of wind or more. With only 30 m3 (300 square feet) of sail, its not a great sailer compared to a "real" sailboat but I'm not really interested in racing around the cans.

For me, it's the perfect fit. I motor-sail the all the time if there is any wind, as it gives me great stabilisation and extra speed and/or reduced revs. I can still get about 5 knots under sail alone with 20 knots of wind when I get tired of listening to the engine.
 
Simi 60 said:
Ever been on a ballasted sailing vessel in a seaway that lost its rig?
Click to expand...

Nope ! Never sailed at all.

Can it be true "Looks can be deceiving " :lol:
 
There are a handful of credible sources of cruisers with significant miles under both sail and power. Dashew comes immediately to mind, but there are others. An interesting blog by a young family "Bumfuzzle" seem to have an insatiable wanderlust who circumnavigated under sail, and have now spent the last several years cruising the Caribbean on a GB42.

All paths lead to the long term costs of power vs sail being similar. But what about power and sail? I would not expect a major cost uptick. Dashew states that sails last an average of 3400 hours of sailing. Now, he's a performance guy so likely changed them sooner than many do. A person motorsailing could probably cruise 15 years on a set of sails and not worry. I would think that 12-15 years is the lifespan of the sails and standing rigging. Running rigging about half that period. That would be the big cost enhancer to owning an existing motorsailor compared to a trawler.

I have nothing but a gut feel/hunch, but I suspect sailboats often have inferior engine installations compared to power. Access is often cramped and poorly ventilated. The intermittent usage of a sailboat engine is also hard on it.

Coming at it from the sail angle, trawler cruisers generally have bigger energy budgets for AC, freezers, ice makers, sat TV, etc. Means bigger generators, bigger battery banks, bigger inverters. The big cost is stabilization. Fins will cost several thousand dollars to service ever several years. Add in an extra oil change or two for each engine per year and you have the cost Delta.

Purchase cost did many motorsailors is lower than their non-hybrid brethren. There are exceptions. The Fisher and Nauticat lines were designed and constructed as purpose-built. From the trawler side, the DD line were always contemplated to carry a sail rig. But where a builder offered a MS and a non-MS config of the same hull, the hybrid version can normally be purchased at a discount, which offsets some of the dual costs.

A non-trivial comment on motorsailing - actually motoring while sailing. Engines have a max angle of operation. For the most part, combustion engines are not designed to be operated at a sustained heel angle beyond 20 degrees or so. The can tolerate it, and there are modifications that improve the heel angle tolerance, but it's not exactly commonplace, it's not entirely rare for a sailor to throw a rod while motorsailing. It's probably a good thing that motorsailors don't sail very well.

Bottom line is that any difference is likely a rounding error in the grand scheme of ownership. I'm a devout single engine guy, but you will never hear me say that twins are twice as expensive to maintain as singles. They take twice as much oil, but only take one trip to the store to buy the oil - same as a single. Not everything is a doubling factor.

For long passages, a MS makes a lot of sense in my mind. Not for fuel economy, but for additional range, stability, and some semblance of crude backup propulsion. The shorter the passage, the less it makes sense.

Peter
 
very interesting all

mvweebles said:
There are a handful of credible sources of cruisers with significant miles under both sail and power. Dashew comes immediately to mind, but there are others. An interesting blog by a young family "Bumfuzzle" seem to have an insatiable wanderlust who circumnavigated under sail, and have now spent the last several years cruising the Caribbean on a GB42.
Click to expand...
Yes...it was a post by them I read a while back comparing trawler vs sail. Couldn't remember the name.

mvweebles said:
I have nothing but a gut feel/hunch, but I suspect sailboats often have inferior engine installations compared to power. Access is often cramped and poorly ventilated. The intermittent usage of a sailboat engine is also hard on it.
Click to expand...
This has been my gut feel as well....poor installation and limited. Watching MV Freedom on youtube...now that's a proper equipment room! ...although just form my anecdotal observations I'm not so sure I agree about the intermittent usage. Seems like I see sail boats under power more often than not. Granted, I'm not seeing them while under passage, but they seem to run engines a lot on average. Probably the main reason I keep thinking a trawler with sails makes some sense.
 
Last edited:
Interesting points everyone. I never thought of the motor operating while heeling...interesting.

I think there is no question a purpose built trawler is the best answer for our retirement winter liveaboard plans. But the magic of sailing on those glorious 2 days a year when the wind is perfect, man I'll miss that.
 
TheDory said:
Interesting points everyone. I never thought of the motor operating while heeling...interesting.

I think there is no question a purpose built trawler is the best answer for our retirement winter liveaboard plans. But the magic of sailing on those glorious 2 days a year when the wind is perfect, man I'll miss that.
Click to expand...

One of the few reason's I'd like a bigger boat is to have enough room to put a Laser on the aft deck to sail around the anchorage. Next bigger boat would have room for two Lasers - what a blast it would be to run around with a friend on Lasers instead of a dinghy!

Peter
 
I don't think heeling is an issue on motorsailers. You are unlikely to be motorsailing while heeled 20 degrees.

On our sailboat, the log shows something like 16,000 miles. The extents have been roughly North Channel in Lake Huron, to Newfoundland, the Bahamas, then trucked to PNW, mid BC coast to SF Bay. The engine hobbs shows 1200 hours. About 200 of that might be maneuvering for anchoring and docking, and the very occasional battery charging run. We plan on about 6.5 knots average. Unless truly flat calm, the sails are up and we are sailing, but the wife insists on firing the engine when the speed gets below about 2.5 knots. Those numbers suggest that we have motored (or motorsailed) 40% of the time. It depends a great deal on the area. Fair amount of motoring on the Great Lakes. Not as much Newfoundland -> Chesapeake. Fair amount in the Bahamas. Almost all the time in PNW (west side of Van Isle the exception).
 
Interesting thread. I’m not lucky enough to have cruised a lot but have been fortunate to have owned a few boats, mostly sail but a few power as well. My 2c is that I love sailing sailboats below 30 feet or so ... I used to relish turning off the engine on my elite 32 and still sail my Alerion 28 (best laser ever) on and off her mooring. We had a large late model hunter that started to have the necessary things for cruising (beam, beds and comforts) and I did not enjoy the sailing experience as much (I have also sailed better bigger boats but always feel that the heal is less convenient when loaded for cruising, the hunter actually sailed better than her reputation). We currently cruise on a Mainship (weekends at most) and roll it forward and I believe we will cruise on a power boat - wife prefers it flat and I prefer to be able to go. So far my fuel shock factor has not been an issue - if it is slow down and go at sailboat speeds, not as good as the feeling of silence when you kill the engine but I spill my coffee less often - and the coffee is a decent one.
 
TheDory said:
Hello, when it comes to maintenance expenses, I'm curious if those of you who own motorsailers find the maintenance expenses are significantly higher than those of a trawler? Our retirement dream is to have a winter liveaboard and cruise the east coast, Bahamas, Caribbean, and wherever else we choose. Although I am a sailor, and love nothing more than turning of the motor and sailing, I can see the value in having a trawler for liveaboard space, overall comfort, and ease of getting where we want to go.

I'm attracted to Island Packet SP Cruiser's because they seem to make a great pilothouse trawler with a comfortable layout and also the ability to sail when conditions are right. A mainsail to help stabilize the boat and also help with fuel efficiency could be nice as well.

But, as anyone who's owned a sailboat knows, sailing isn't exactly free. Maintaining all the rigging and sails is extremely expensive. Any fuel savings are lost just with the cost of replacing some jib sheets. The cost of a new block or two equals an engine tune-up. You could probably perform a major engine overhaul for the price of new sails.

Have you found the additional costs of maintaining the sails and rigging really negates the benefits of having a motorsailer vs strictly a trawler?
Click to expand...

Like the OP we are planning to liveaboard part time and cruise the east coast to the Bahamas. We have owned many boats including classics like a 1960 Rhodes 33 Swiftsure and a 1941 50' Alden designed swordfishing yacht in the past. We ended up buying the a 46' Ed Monk Jr. designed motorsailer. It has a 100 hp Yanmar, electric winches, bow thruster, autopilot. It is a nice trawler but still allows us to sail fine when the wind is fair. We are in our 60's now and past bashing into headwinds. The sails do stabilize the boat beautifully. We decided against cats because we dislike the motion and worrying about getting a slip when that big storm comes.

We will let you know how the cost thing turns out.
D7464F6D-DD37-4E2E-A8AA-4E297F410A88_1_105_c.jpeg
Click to expand...
 
Sounds like you guys are all living my dream. DDW - you've sailed everything from the Great Lakes to the PNW, Chesapeake, Bahamas, and Newfoundland. All areas I'd love to explore. I grew up boating on Lake Michigan and now cruise the Chesapeake but I can't wait to explore the PNW and up around Newfoundland. What's your favorite?

Edsail - a Mainship 430 is what I'm currently eyeing as a possibility for my retirement winter liveaboard.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

RedRascal
Unique GB
Replies
3
Views
884
RedRascal
RedRascal
T
Is Autopilot Necessary In PNW?
2 3
Replies
63
Views
5K
Beach House
B
T
GB 36 wisdom inquiry
Replies
18
Views
2K
Cigatoo
Cigatoo
Y
Dumb Newb Questions
Replies
28
Views
1K
NStenger
NStenger
D
Collision and demasting
10 11 12
Replies
351
Views
24K
Old Sea Dog
Old Sea Dog

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom