jleonard
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This happened to me. The rubber line going into the lift pump is what collapsed on mine.
good morning and I have issues
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This happened to me. The rubber line going into the lift pump is what collapsed on mine.
Slider70
Senior Member
A number of years ago I had a similar problem with my 3208 Cat. Tried a few different fixes to no success. I would still have a dead Cat seemingly at random. I finally by passed my Racor fuel filter going to a second system using a Gulf Coast filer. I never had another engine failure over the next ten years I owned the boat. I suspect I was sucking air somehow within the Racor filter. Never able to prove this but no more trouble. Never did use the Racor system again. Just saying.
Rob
Senior Member
I have had that exact experience!
My number one suspect would be an air leak in the gaskets of your secondary fuel filters! If you talk to Brian @ American Diesel I’ll be that he concurs. My guess is that you do not have Delfi secondary fuel filters installed which is what American will sell you. NAPA, Wix and other manufactures simply do not work on some 120’s.
When you are at low RPM obviously there is less of a draw where as at higher rpm you’ll have a stronger draw thru the secondary filters. Your pulling air thru the gaskets, and a little bit of air causes big problems just as you describe
By the way my previous boat was a Willard 40 PH with a single 120, and current one is a KK42 powered with a FL 135.
My number one suspect would be an air leak in the gaskets of your secondary fuel filters! If you talk to Brian @ American Diesel I’ll be that he concurs. My guess is that you do not have Delfi secondary fuel filters installed which is what American will sell you. NAPA, Wix and other manufactures simply do not work on some 120’s.
When you are at low RPM obviously there is less of a draw where as at higher rpm you’ll have a stronger draw thru the secondary filters. Your pulling air thru the gaskets, and a little bit of air causes big problems just as you describe
By the way my previous boat was a Willard 40 PH with a single 120, and current one is a KK42 powered with a FL 135.
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Andiamo2018
Senior Member
I mounted a cheapish fuel filter housing upside down AFTER my first fuel filter. The bleeder valve was on the top. I filled that clear bowl with fuel by running an electric pick up pump - left the bleeder valve open till the bowl was full then closed it.
The advantage is you can change the filter while underway and not have to stop the engine. You just have to do it fast enough that the fuel in the bowl doesn't get used up. And you need a switch to your pickup pump close by.
It is easy to see if air gets into the system going to the engine. Your vacuum gauge should tell you if something is clogged and you can also just open the bleeder valve and see if the fuel level drops quickly due to a vacuum. If not then the problem is somewhere downstream.
The advantage is you can change the filter while underway and not have to stop the engine. You just have to do it fast enough that the fuel in the bowl doesn't get used up. And you need a switch to your pickup pump close by.
It is easy to see if air gets into the system going to the engine. Your vacuum gauge should tell you if something is clogged and you can also just open the bleeder valve and see if the fuel level drops quickly due to a vacuum. If not then the problem is somewhere downstream.
rgano
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The comment by Brian from AD about not being able to restart a 2715E after air ingestion without bleeding is spot on. When either of my 2715Es stopped from air ingestion, it was a very sudden 3-4 second decline from cruise RPM to nada, with NO preamble, just dead. And there was NO restarting them until I turned on the electric priming pump and cracked the bleed screw on the Simms. Hint. get a pump installed before the new Racor 500s you are gonna buy. 
BTW, one of my air ingestion points was a crimped o-ring under the tee-handle of a Racor 500.
Soooo, if you are able to restart at all without any bleeding of the system, the stoppage is likely not air at the injector pump, but as I think Ted stated more like a fuel blockage issue. Had a friend whose single engine liked to quit and would then restart. FINALLY he opened the fuel tank and found a piece of rubber hanging about near the tank's outlet. As soon as the loss of suction from the engine let this pesky thing float off an inch or so, the fuel supply was reestablished and he could restart.
So do you have fuel from multiple tanks lined up? This would eliminate this intermittent blockage at a single tank from stopping your engine. Are your tanks standpipe or bottom-fed? Standpipes can get pinholes in them, but then again that would allow air ingestion, which from Brian's comment seems to eliminate that as a cause of your stoppages.
BTW, if you elect to go the clear hose route to investigate, it takes a while of CAREFULLY observing the tube to detect any tiny stream of air bubbles - probably not worth the effort, yet.
On the good side, your engine sounds to be in great running condition, and I am sure IT is not stopping through some unique or odd mechanical issue. BTW, are you changing the Simms lube oil every 50 hours per the manual?
Suggestion: get rid of all the copper fuel line you can and replace with hose barb and hose connections to that new Racor 500.
BTW, one of my air ingestion points was a crimped o-ring under the tee-handle of a Racor 500.Soooo, if you are able to restart at all without any bleeding of the system, the stoppage is likely not air at the injector pump, but as I think Ted stated more like a fuel blockage issue. Had a friend whose single engine liked to quit and would then restart. FINALLY he opened the fuel tank and found a piece of rubber hanging about near the tank's outlet. As soon as the loss of suction from the engine let this pesky thing float off an inch or so, the fuel supply was reestablished and he could restart.
So do you have fuel from multiple tanks lined up? This would eliminate this intermittent blockage at a single tank from stopping your engine. Are your tanks standpipe or bottom-fed? Standpipes can get pinholes in them, but then again that would allow air ingestion, which from Brian's comment seems to eliminate that as a cause of your stoppages.
BTW, if you elect to go the clear hose route to investigate, it takes a while of CAREFULLY observing the tube to detect any tiny stream of air bubbles - probably not worth the effort, yet.
On the good side, your engine sounds to be in great running condition, and I am sure IT is not stopping through some unique or odd mechanical issue. BTW, are you changing the Simms lube oil every 50 hours per the manual?
Suggestion: get rid of all the copper fuel line you can and replace with hose barb and hose connections to that new Racor 500.
Comodave
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The clear bowls are fine on diesel but not with a gas engine.
EngNate
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Absolutely, pull and check the tank pickups - your mystery calls for removal and inspection. Yes, for sure two tanks can both be plugged - expect it if one is. And then is the time to get the fuel polishing service down there to spray down and suck out everything possible. And be sure there is no blockage at the fitting. That boat had been on the river for how long - years and years? That means no major sloshing of fuel in the tank(s)s until you ran up the coast, and there are likely a lot of fresh flakes floating around in there now. Besides other crud that can develop in the tank, asphalt precipitates from diesel fuel as it ages. Regular sloshing keeps it washed into filters while its still fine particles, otherwise it forms a film and eventually becomes flakes that are highly mobile and have lots of blocking power.
A customer came to me with a great boat he'd gotten for a steal because of this issue, and it had been chased around for two years without success until the wife could take no more. Cabinetry had to be disassembled, it took 2 days to fix, dirt cheap for the buyer. Perplexing to me how it got to that point, supposedly qualified mechanics had been working on it.
A customer came to me with a great boat he'd gotten for a steal because of this issue, and it had been chased around for two years without success until the wife could take no more. Cabinetry had to be disassembled, it took 2 days to fix, dirt cheap for the buyer. Perplexing to me how it got to that point, supposedly qualified mechanics had been working on it.
catalinajack
Guru
Rich, I am curious as to why you suggest removing the copper tubing. I am about to install a pair of Tony Athens sequential filtering heads and will be runn8ng rubber hose from the distribution manifold to the filter heads but doing so will be to clean up the installation runs, not to eliminate the copper tubing. The supplies from my two tanks to my fuel distribution manifold will remain but I could eliminate those copper lines also. My tanks are bottom-feeders and are valved at the tank outlets.
The comment by Brian from AD about not being able to restart a 2715E after air ingestion without bleeding is spot on. When either of my 2715Es stopped from air ingestion, it was a very sudden 3-4 second decline from cruise RPM to nada, with NO preamble, just dead. And there was NO restarting them until I turned on the electric priming pump and cracked the bleed screw on the Simms. Hint. get a pump installed before the new Racor 500s you are gonna buy.
Soooo, if you are able to restart at all without any bleeding of the system, the stoppage is likely not air at the injector pump, but as I think Ted stated more like a fuel blockage issue. Had a friend whose single engine liked to quit and would then restart. FINALLY he opened the fuel tank and found a piece of rubber hanging about near the tank's outlet. As soon as the loss of suction from the engine let this pesky thing float off an inch or so, the fuel supply was reestablished and he could restart.
So do you have fuel from multiple tanks lined up? This would eliminate this intermittent blockage at a single tank from stopping your engine. Are your tanks standpipe or bottom-fed? Standpipes can get pinholes in them, but then again that would allow air ingestion, which from Brian's comment seems to eliminate that as a cause of your stoppages.
BTW, if you elect to go the clear hose route to investigate, it takes a while of CAREFULLY observing the tube to detect any tiny stream of air bubbles - probably not worth the effort, yet.
On the good side, your engine sounds to be in great running condition, and I am sure IT is not stopping through some unique or odd mechanical issue. BTW, are you changing the Simms lube oil every 50 hours per the manual?
Suggestion: get rid of all the copper fuel line you can and replace with hose barb and hose connections to that new Racor 500.
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Catalina, if by that you mean the draw-off point is at the bottom of the tanks, rather than via tube pick-ups from the top, then my tanks were set up that way also, and I think it is vastly better than having the orthodox pick-ups, as crud is continually drawn off and filtered out, so can't build up. I gather Nordhavn sets up the tank draw like this also. It means the fuel is being constantly polished. Why is this not more commonly done, I wonder..?
northernmist
Newbie
Engine stoppage
We have had similar problem with our Lemans stopping (at the worst times). The metal braided line was collapsing (the rubber line inside the braiding protection). A common occurrence with a number of motors. As the rubber was covered, you could not see the problem. A short “rest” and it would start, and run again.
We have had similar problem with our Lemans stopping (at the worst times). The metal braided line was collapsing (the rubber line inside the braiding protection). A common occurrence with a number of motors. As the rubber was covered, you could not see the problem. A short “rest” and it would start, and run again.
FF
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Crud in the tank, obstructing the fuel pickup would also be my guess.After the engine shuts down the crud drops and you are running again.
I would install an outboard bulb fuel pump in the feed line.
This will help find air leaks , priming,and help any trouble shooting process for as long as the boat is afloat.
I would install an outboard bulb fuel pump in the feed line.
This will help find air leaks , priming,and help any trouble shooting process for as long as the boat is afloat.
Steve Puglisi
Member
Good evening all and thank you for your very good advice. In reading through your comments it strikes me that you all have had similar, if not identical, issues with fuel systems. If I had to bet, I would put my money on tank issues. Dipping the tanks, as I have neither sight tubes nor gauges, I feel the "sticky" condition at the bottom of the tank. I was docent on a Norm Blanchard Noise Measuring Boat, WW 2 vintage. Bronze fuel tanks. 3 inches of jello in the bottom of the tanks.
What I did different prior to the failure was switch to the alternate primary filter with its assortment of fittings and hose connections. Might the problem be there? Maybe. $300 worth of parts and a day of labor and the system gets rebuilt. Even if the primary issue is with the tanks, replacing 45 year old parts is not a bad idea. Ditching 300 gallons of fuel, most of which is less than 4 months old. Now that is an expense that I would like to avoid.
What I did different prior to the failure was switch to the alternate primary filter with its assortment of fittings and hose connections. Might the problem be there? Maybe. $300 worth of parts and a day of labor and the system gets rebuilt. Even if the primary issue is with the tanks, replacing 45 year old parts is not a bad idea. Ditching 300 gallons of fuel, most of which is less than 4 months old. Now that is an expense that I would like to avoid.
Juggerknot
Senior Member
Hi Steve, agreed on the fuel dump, that's a costly remedy but, if you get the fuel guys down to the dock for a clean and polish, you'll save the fuel and be rest assured the tanks are free from debris which, I suspect is the culprit as well. I would follow recommendations to replace all your existing lines, cheap insurance and you are starting fresh. Con gusto
catalinajack
Guru
Yes, exactly, my tanks supply fuel from the bottom. Oddly, I have spoken with another DeFever 44 owner (1984 vs my 1983) and his supply is via dip-tube. My supply is about 1.5 inches from the bottom so any crud or water is pushed through to the filters. I also have a drain valve at the very bottom of the tanks. I occasionally open these valves to see if anything comes out. A couple of flecks and no water is all I have ever seen. Yes, one wonders why all boats are not arranged so. Those dip tubes are just problems, sometimes big problems, just waiting to happen.
FF
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" I also have a drain valve at the very bottom of the tanks. I occasionally open these valves to see if anything comes out. A couple of flecks and no water is all I have ever seen."
Being at the tank bottom the drain valve could easily be filled with gunk.
Next time you open the valve poke a wire up thru the valve , with a catch bucket in place, just in case.
Being at the tank bottom the drain valve could easily be filled with gunk.
Next time you open the valve poke a wire up thru the valve , with a catch bucket in place, just in case.
catalinajack
Guru
FF, now that is a good idea. I will do that soon and report back but since when I open the valve fuel flows freely, I doubt I will discover anything new.
Nick F
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Steve - I also recently purchased a 1976 CHB34, so I feel very much for your situation.
I also had a somewhat similar experience helping a friend who has just purchased a trawler. In his case we were able to definitely establish the cause and I can assure you that this fact was a tremendous relief - so I totally concur with Bayview's comment above.
By the way, my friend's problem was not the same as yours - he had a failed fuel lift pump - but the symptons were uncannily similar - random stoppages followed by ability to motor slowly. In his case we surmised that the injection pump was able to suck the fuel from the fuel tank and through the filters at low flow rates without the boost of the lift pump. A parallel factor was that the boat went bow up when running under more power which affected the level difference between the fuel level in the tank and the engine.
In my new (to me) boat I also already had the unpleasant experience of engine failure under way - traced to the lift pump again. I got home on the 12 volt micro priming pump installed by the PO between tank and primary filters. I had been planning to remove this pump, but am now a total believer. Strongly recommended.
As regards the theory of a leak around the secondary filters allowing air into the feed to the injector pump, the fuel pressure at this point would have to be below atmospheric, which greatly surprises me if this is true. With a properly functiong lift pump I would expect fuel to leak OUT of any fitting downstream of the lift pump. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
Steve - I presume we both have the same 2 x steel tanks setup in our CHB34's and I am in the process of planning to replace mine - I did ask if anyone could give details of how they did it, but without luck. I would be happy to discuss thoughts with you (and/or any other CHB34 owners, of course).
Good luck!
Nick
Steve Puglisi
Member
fuel issues
Good afternoon Nick,
I'm just about ready to begin dismantling and rebuilding my fuel system. I have rationalized that even if everything were working correctly, the age of the parts (fittings, copper tubing, ancient ball valves, obsolete pumps and who knows the condition of the withdrawal tubes) warrants replacement.
I am hopeful that I'll find the problem. Maybe some decomposed tube inner liner that has found its way into a fitting somewhere. I am starting to believe that the problem is downhill from the tank "T" fittings because if it were a pick-up tube issue, only one tank would be affected and fuel supplied from the other tank should suffice. I can't imagine a tank blockage occurring simultaneously in both tanks.
I'm going to also inspect the tanks best as I can to see if I've got a lot of debris in the bottom. Having already replaced the fuel lift pump after the first failure and before the second failure has me convinced that it was not a lift pump issue. Replacing that old pump is good maintenance in any case, and inexpensive.
I'll let you know what we find once we get this project under way. Early January is our start date.
Steve
Good afternoon Nick,
I'm just about ready to begin dismantling and rebuilding my fuel system. I have rationalized that even if everything were working correctly, the age of the parts (fittings, copper tubing, ancient ball valves, obsolete pumps and who knows the condition of the withdrawal tubes) warrants replacement.
I am hopeful that I'll find the problem. Maybe some decomposed tube inner liner that has found its way into a fitting somewhere. I am starting to believe that the problem is downhill from the tank "T" fittings because if it were a pick-up tube issue, only one tank would be affected and fuel supplied from the other tank should suffice. I can't imagine a tank blockage occurring simultaneously in both tanks.
I'm going to also inspect the tanks best as I can to see if I've got a lot of debris in the bottom. Having already replaced the fuel lift pump after the first failure and before the second failure has me convinced that it was not a lift pump issue. Replacing that old pump is good maintenance in any case, and inexpensive.
I'll let you know what we find once we get this project under way. Early January is our start date.
Steve
fgarriso
Guru
If you can get a LED pen lite in the tanks and look inside the tanks. You could have DEAD algae floating around the fuel tanks. I pulled the inspection plates off of ours. It was amassing what we found. Algae, dirt, and water all mixed together. Biocide will kill the algae, BUT it does not remove it from the tanks.
Steve Puglisi
Member
Inspection plates? My tank sides are covered with sound deadening panels. I've never even considered that CHB's have inspection plates on their tanks. If anyone could confirm, I would certainly appreciate it.
Steve
Steve
Steve Puglisi
Member
Rats. I had a moment of hope there. I was not about to tear out the sound board on the off chance there were plates. Maybe, we the right inspection technology, we could see them from the inside, if they exist. I know the fuel polish guys will cut them into the tanks for big bucks and without them, getting the gunk out is all but impossible. I was docent on a Norm Blanchard WW 2 noise measuring boat. Bronze 500 gallon tanks, 2 of them. 3" of Jell-o was sitting in those tanks.
Northern Spy
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A cheap flexible borescope with a led light on it through the fuel filler will give pretty good indication of contamination. Sounds like you are way past the troubleshooting stage though.
Get handhelds at Home Depot for $100. Get usb ones on Amazon. Amazon one I bought is fairly useless.
It will probably just confirm your suspicions.
Good luck!
Get handhelds at Home Depot for $100. Get usb ones on Amazon. Amazon one I bought is fairly useless.
It will probably just confirm your suspicions.
Good luck!
Xlantic
Guru
I this is so, I would think the vacuum gauge is defective or there is no restriction on the fuel line up to the gauge.
You could check the gauge by closing the tank fuel valve while running the engine.
If the vacuum gauge is OK then the restriction, if there is one, would be after the gauge ...
catalinajack
Guru
Electric fuel pumps beat hell out of any mechanical pump, all day, every day. A Walbro pump is rated for 18,000 hours.
FF
Guru
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Inspection plates can be added to fuel tanks , one emptied.
Not hard , not very expensive .,multiple sources , here is one.
www.seabuilt.com
Seabuilt - Access Plate Systems
The SeaBuilt Access Plate System is a one of a kind product that allows access to your diesel fuel, water and holding tanks - so you can perform the important task of cleaning - giving you peace of mind. Clean tanks mean better and safer boating.
Not hard , not very expensive .,multiple sources , here is one.
www.seabuilt.com
Seabuilt - Access Plate Systems
The SeaBuilt Access Plate System is a one of a kind product that allows access to your diesel fuel, water and holding tanks - so you can perform the important task of cleaning - giving you peace of mind. Clean tanks mean better and safer boating.
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Nick F
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Regarding the boroscope suggestion:
I think this is a good idea but I would not go with the handheld (Home Depot) style - the display is way too small.
I have 2 different USB boroscopes from Amazon which I use with a laptop. One gives excellent images and the other is quite disappointing. The good one is not as thin, or long, or flexible but would easily go into the fuel tanks via the filler(or any 1/2" hole). The poor quality boroscope is longer and will go through a 5/16" hole - i managed to locate a ladies ring in the U-trap under a bidet at home with it but the quality is worse than what you get swimming underwater without a mask and depth of filed was very limited (you had to be very close to be in focus, whereas the other unit could "see into the distance" as well).
Good luck,
Nick
I think this is a good idea but I would not go with the handheld (Home Depot) style - the display is way too small.
I have 2 different USB boroscopes from Amazon which I use with a laptop. One gives excellent images and the other is quite disappointing. The good one is not as thin, or long, or flexible but would easily go into the fuel tanks via the filler(or any 1/2" hole). The poor quality boroscope is longer and will go through a 5/16" hole - i managed to locate a ladies ring in the U-trap under a bidet at home with it but the quality is worse than what you get swimming underwater without a mask and depth of filed was very limited (you had to be very close to be in focus, whereas the other unit could "see into the distance" as well).
Good luck,
Nick
Steve Puglisi
Member
fuel issues
Good morning,
Next month, January, we'll remove and replumb fuel supply and return, starting with the extraction tubes in the tanks. We'll reuse the primary Racor filter bodies. Everything else goes.
I'm going to have the tanks inspected and if necessary, I'll do the "polishing" including installation of inspection plates.
I'll update this post as we begin the work.
Steve
Good morning,
Next month, January, we'll remove and replumb fuel supply and return, starting with the extraction tubes in the tanks. We'll reuse the primary Racor filter bodies. Everything else goes.
I'm going to have the tanks inspected and if necessary, I'll do the "polishing" including installation of inspection plates.
I'll update this post as we begin the work.
Steve
