GB32 Woodie Under Contract: Lots of Questions :)

Great, Bruce!! Seems things are progressing well toward your purchase. I continue to say... Best Luck!

Good Luck - hope it works out all OK.

Good Luck - hope it works out all OK.

Don't forget to have some fun

Alfa Mike

Captain DJ said:

You know I owned that GB42-125 you have for many years. I was the 5th or 6th owner and now you are the 8th or 9th owner.
You may also know I bought her for $40k and spent $150k of my money, and some $60k of Boat US insurance money and $20k of potential buyer´s money all in making her ready to use and eventually giving her away at $22k. That buyer got $49k on insurance after that tornado you spoke of. It also proved how tough a boat she is.

You bought a boat that had already had a quart million spent on her for mere peanuts and you are in one of the last TRULY free areas to enjoy a boat like that, so by all means do enjoy it. But please recognize it is extremely expensive to restore and maintain ANY large boat. Woodies just require a bit more and a bit more frequently than steel, aluminum, fiberglass or ferrocement. But they will outlast them all if enough money is spent.

Your perspective will be dramatically different in Alabama on the Tennessee River than in San Francisco Bay or PNW areas, Outer Banks or The Keys. By all means continue to enhance and enjoy her, you know she means a lot to me. Having totally rewired her and replaced and enhanced so many systems and eliminated many of the details that cause issues with GB Woodies and other woodies, she should be easier to keep usable. But not everyone wins a Boat Lottery and gets a special boat that has had hundreds of thousands and literally tens of thousands of man hours spent on her for < a single 1% of all that.

So Be Happy and realize that most folks here and in other forums have had to invest on a whole new level, ten or a hundred times higher, thus they cannot relate any better than Thurston could relate to Gilligan. May you find your Mary Ann or Ginger and enjoy thousands of miles under our old gal´s keel. Remind folks that it is the Great Whittler´s Dream they are seeing when you get to the Bahamas and Exumas and if you ever return Northward to the Outer Banks.

Flat seas, and warm breezes to all of you.

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"Touche'
Yep,DJ,you are absolutely correct on all points. I did win the boat lottery.
But,as you know,I have also had loads of woodies, including, but not limited to, a 1947 Matthews, the famous "SAPPHIRE "now docked in Charleston, South Carolina, a 1968 45 ft Matthews,,GRACE ",and on and on. Both needing a major restoration.
But restoration doesn't necessarily mean make new. I did all the work myself,except for pumping out the fuel tanks on SAPPHIRE ,due to the fact of a partial sinking (just like WD),and,it being a gas boat,it had to be disposed of.
So,I agree with you,but,still,one does not simply have to be in good financial condition to get a woodie. It can be done on a modest budget, if you do it yourself.
I would have never told the OP to get the boat if it had been setting on "dead boat row"at a marina, or on the hill in the back of some boat yard wasting away. He stated that this boat was in constant service, and, being on the west coast where all those peoples lives were lost in the fire on the dive boat,I'm sure that the coastguard, and all water LEOs are vigorously checking boats for unsafe operation.
And yes,I am in a truly unbelievable area to own and travel on a boat. And my boat,I'm confident, is capable of traveling anywhere in the world that my fuel capacity will allow.
My problem with this thread is the true nay-sayers. Those who by their own words,feel that wooden boats are a complete waste of time and money. It sticks in my gut. Sorry,but some of us,you included, love our woodies.
Come'on DJ,we have spoken on the phone several times,and,like I have said to you before, I am "smarter than the average bear" when it comes to woodies.
And yes,this forum is for USEFUL information, shared by all,to all. But,those who have nothing constructive to say, and I mean TRULY constructive, should leave their opinions to themselves. Opinions being the operative word. If ya ain't owned one,be quiet. You do not know what you're talking about. (Not you DJ,your input is always welcome)
Those who have only heard horror stories from other people, who probably have never owned one,should be quiet. I've never owned a Porsche, but I've heard bad things about them. So,I should have no input in a discussion about them. All I would be doing is ,in essence, spreading rumors. See my point?
A very good example is I recently traded my Jeep for a 2002 BMW X5 4.4i. With very high milage. You should have heard the nay-sayers. My best friend, and probably just about everyone I told about the trade told me I was crazy. But, not one of them had ever owned one,much less rode in one. So,who are they to give advice? (Oh no,here come the BMW nay-sayers on here) I had to replace the alternator ($300,not the $800 everyone said) and the battery (not the $250 everyone said, but $55.00 from Rural King),and I did the labor myself, instead of the nearly $700 that the BMW dealership quoted me to "install,reprogram, and update"the systems. Let's see, that is close to a $1400 savings.
This goes to my point. If you can do the work yourself, you are cutting your costs of repairs about 75%. And,thr OP said that he can do it himself.
BTW, we,Pops and myself, have completed all the repairs, sans sanding and painting, in about 7 working days. Total cost in parts,about $175.00. Cost in labor? 2 home cooked dinners,and a few homemade biscuits and gravy breakfasts. Lots of our stuff,i.e.the 1.25x1.25 pieces of mahogany for the bulwarks, were taken from either scrap from old abandoned boats in the yard beside us(Jerrys)or came from pieces of mahogany used as spacing chocks in a pallet of flooring.
So,DJ,I hope you see the point for my passion. You are a lover for these woodies, and I'm sure have the scars from cuts on your hands to prove it.
Nutin but love,my brother !!!

Simi 60 said:

Those that can do

Those that can't say run away.

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Not necessarily...

Many of we "old salts" who urged caution on this thread, to a person [the OP] who obviously knew [before reading these posts] little regarding old wood boats [i.e. "run away" if certain items became apparent] are in the can do category. Myself very much so, having helped rebuild old woodies for years in LI boatyards and also worked with shipwrights building brand new wood boats [27' to 70'] in a Maine boat building factory.

What we [who have background and experience in wooden boats] wanted to impress on a newbie to the "old-wood boat world" is to not look at everything regarding this GB with rose colored glasses. That it is OK to walk away. That another boat with less work-effort and less after-purchase expense needs is somewhere available. We wanted to and did provide Bruce with a reality check about what he may be getting into on all levels of owning an old wood boat. He listened and appears to be making decisions accordingly.

It seems that Bruce took heed to suggestions offered [by we "old salts"] in these many posts and is now making decision with wide open eyes. Because of many cautionary posts here he has a better understanding of old wood boats than at first when beginning this thread.

That you live aboard your really nice wooden boat and therefore have easy access to keep your eye on it; and, to stay on a level of do-it whenever necessary with maintenance required for old wood... is a blessing for you.

Fact is... most persons leave their boats docked and visit relatively seldom. When visiting many persons want to take their boat out on the water to use and enjoy - not just work on it. Some don't care if the boat does not meet sea keeping ability... as they simply want a dock queen to sit on so they can say they own a boat. Bruce sounds like a user of boat for out of slip cruising pleasure and adventures... not a dock queen martini sipper with the Queens Hand Wave ready for those who walk the docks or leave their slips for on the water use of their good condition "functioning" boat.

Another fact - Our house is 100 miles from our much beloved 1977, 34' Tollycraft tri cabin, stay aboard cruiser. So, we do not too often get to visit and use her. But when we do: She's a very well built [stout as all get out] FRP pleasure boat. Tough as nails and well designed/equipped for comfortably staying days/weeks on board. She's always ready to go out on the water for cruising, anchoring, swimming and other marine playtime adventures. We don't keep her in pristine "look at me" shined up exterior condition... we do keep her in ready to use and stay fairly good looking condition. Inside always stays in good clean condition. That said... because our Tolly is FRP... in 13 years of ownership I've never needed to do any repairs on hull, stringer, superstructure, flying bridge, deck, swimstep or any other portion of our Tollycraft boat. She's a simply wash me off with a hose and long handled soft brush, then use the heck out of me type of boatie gal!!! LOL

Having owned woodies and for decades of work on woodies [to keep them up and in some sort of OK condition] I can say unequivocally that a well built good condition old fiberglass boat is many, many, many times less work effort and expen$e to keep in good usable condition so you can take it out and about when ever you want than is an old woodie. That is a hands down trueful statement - backed up by a [so far] 68 year old lifetime of marine doings.

Happy Boatie-Daze! - Art

thebruce said:

So I think we will have a final decision next week. And if I do purchase, yes I will certainly create a new thread on the projects and progress. Some of you might enjoy a couple "I told you so's" along the way . But I appreciate the support all the same.

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Sounds like you found a diamond in the rough. Nice job following through to understand what's really there, instead of guessing.

@nutin fancy too just educated me on the fact that the bronze nails weren't some DIY job gone bad. The woodies used bronze barded nails whereas the fiberglass ones were fastened with screws.

Essential fact #27 of this project. Only 3,000 more to go

thebruce said:

One of the worst parts was we found somebody has used bronze nails to fasten sections of the aft teak deck. That had everyone scratching their heads. After some deliberation everyone felt it should be left as is. The teak wasnt leaking, the caulking was good, so they felt the best course was to leave it be. Trying to remove would cause a lot more damage. So the recommendation is just to clean, bleach and treat with semco every 6 months.

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As suggested by nutin fancy, woodie GBs used nail fasteners on the decks. Maybe what has happened, which is common, is that the decks have been over-sanded and the bungs have come off. If I recall correctly, Bob Lowe's (from the now defunct IAGBO forum) technique was to drive the fastener deeper, drill the bung hole to the same depth and place a new bung.

Regarding the treatment of the decks, IMHO, the less you do them better. Bleaching (or sanding) will not last long and I don't know what Semco claims their product does (other than earn them some revenues). Gently washing them with soap and a soft pad against the grain is all I do. It is only a floor ...

Tim said:

As mentioned remove all half round around house and rebed with sikaflex.

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The quarter-round is traditionally bedded with a non-adhesive, non-hardening bedding compound such as Dolfinite.

Having said that, the idea of using a modern sealant-adhesive such as Sikaflex 291 might work and avoid the need to put in fasteners to hold the quarter-round in place.

(BTW, note that the inside corner of the quarter-round is not 90º, it is more in order to leave some room for the sealant.)

thebruce said:

And thanks for the continued feedback all!

The survey went surprisingly well. I had the yard on standby to cancel the haul out and the surveyor came in expecting the worst after my description. However....while the boat looks like **** its in shockingly good structural and mechanical condition.

The surveyor found no rot, planking, frames and butt blocks all in very good shape, bilge is dry, shaft log good, batteries and electrical good, flybridge was replaced 10 years ago and has no rot, $10k rebuilt Ford Lehman installed 5 years ago and is strong, new engine mounts last year, survey was done 2 years ago for insurance and all items identified were rectified, and the hull is in fantastic shape (but needs a new bottom job). Pulled 6 fasteners and couldn't get any to budge, which they felt was a great sign. All looked new and appeared some had already been replaced in the past.

The amazing thing is the project manager at KKMI has known and worked on the boat for 30 years. He thought it was a great boat and knew the current owner used the **** out of it (which is why he felt it was in such good structural and mechanical condition). He was sad to see the owner had to sell it and let it go cosmetically. They also provided me 10 years of service records.

The bad parts were already known: transmission leak, bad port tank and identified a leak in the hose fitting on the "good" starboard tank, surface corrosion on the transmission and rudder quadrant, need to replace/rebed the deck/house half round, sand, scrape paint or varnish every inch of the boat...basically everywhere you look is a project.

One of the worst parts was we found somebody has used bronze nails to fasten sections of the aft teak deck. That had everyone scratching their heads. After some deliberation everyone felt it should be left as is. The teak wasnt leaking, the caulking was good, so they felt the best course was to leave it be. Trying to remove would cause a lot more damage. So the recommendation is just to clean, bleach and treat with semco every 6 months.

We also found the tanks had already been replaced sometime 10+ years ago. While the port tank didnt last, the good part of the bad part is there is at least 1ft of clearance above them so its looking like they can be slid straight back out of the aft lazaret and replaced with plastic tanks. But thats looking like a project for a few years from now.

Next step is engine survey and insurance quotes on monday.

So not there yet, but a good step. I was also very impressed with the surveyor, broker and project manager at KKMI. They were all wood boat owners and were happy to share their knowledge and passion. Thats a big plus when taking on a project like this.


So I think we will have a final decision next week. And if I do purchase, yes I will certainly create a new thread on the projects and progress. Some of you might enjoy a couple "I told you so's" along the way . But I appreciate the support all the same.

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Well that all sounds great, I hope you move forward on her if all the rest checks out but so far so good. As I posted, I'm in the same boat on a 1950's mahogany gem, it will be my second woodie and I can't wait to roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty. Nothing more satisfying than working on your own boat and many of these classics deserve saving. Cheers

Art said:

Not necessarily...
<snipped>

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Fair comment for sure

GT6 said:

Interesting thread...

Always fun to read the comments from guys who like to present subtle put-downs, like "tupperware", or "plastic" boat. Just like the self-righteous sailboaters who refer to all of us as "stinkpotters", etc. Ridiculous, in other words...

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Hmmm, since you want to dive into this can of worms I distinctly remember being referred to as a "blo-boter" and "Rag boater" when I owned a sailboat.

Glass houses and all that.....

oscar said:

Hmmm, since you want to dive into this can of worms I distinctly remember being referred to as a "blo-boter" and "Rag boater" when I owned a sailboat.

Glass houses and all that.....

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Wind thief is one I remember

My boat a 1985 Marine Trader is what I refer to as a work boat. It starts right up, runs good and shifts as it should yet the majority of the forum members would tear her apart if I posted detailed photos. I paid 40,000 for her and it's a WIP and if I spend 20,000 in the next 10 years and sale her for 40,000 I am happy. If I paid 65-80,000 for another 30 plus year old boat which they would approve of or the 125,000 mentioned I would probably have the same issues I have now.

My boat has been nothing but a joy for me, and you seem to have a similar attitude that I had when I purchased her.

Glad to see you ignored the naysayers on this board. I have learned that most of the members are old grumpy men with nothing to do but pick posts and boats apart. I use the forum for specific questions but try not to give them to much information.

For instance I had a fuel question but didn't want to include photos of the filters because half or more of the responses would be totally useless hyper critical insults.

My uncle has a 40 foot wood Defever he loves her, he purchased her in SF and moved her to Juneau where he lives, she's wouldn't be accepted in most CA marines because she looks rough but he uses her every weekend and she is very stable and safe. Your boat has so much potential and I thought was a good deal and since it's been in use your way ahead of the game. Transmissions can be rebuilt fairly cheap and wood work is very rewarding.

Derik

Derik said:

My boat a 1985 Marine Trader is what I refer to as a work boat. It starts right up, runs good and shifts as it should yet the majority of the forum members would tear her apart if I posted detailed photos. I paid 40,000 for her and it's a WIP and if I spend 20,000 in the next 10 years and sale her for 40,000 I am happy. If I paid 65-80,000 for another 30 plus year old boat which they would approve of or the 125,000 mentioned I would probably have the same issues I have now.

My boat has been nothing but a joy for me, and you seem to have a similar attitude that I had when I purchased her.

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Good For YOU!!!

Derik said:

My boat a 1985 Marine Trader is what I refer to as a work boat. It starts right up, runs good and shifts as it should yet the majority of the forum members would tear her apart if I posted detailed photos. I paid 40,000 for her and it's a WIP and if I spend 20,000 in the next 10 years and sale her for 40,000 I am happy. If I paid 65-80,000 for another 30 plus year old boat which they would approve of or the 125,000 mentioned I would probably have the same issues I have now.

My boat has been nothing but a joy for me, and you seem to have a similar attitude that I had when I purchased her.

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BINGO!!! SPOT ON!
I'm of the same mind as you. The "grumpy old men "(love it) would tear mine apart also. Arm Chair Admirals I call them.
My boat also is a WIP,and I can either choose to work on her on a beautiful day like today, or take her out for a "three hour tour". Haa haa
There has to be a balance between working on and enjoying ones' boat. Lots of folks don't do that,and just labor away until all the fun Is gone. Then it becomes "I have to work on my boat",instead of "I GET to go work on my boat ". Different mind set.

Derik said:

Glad to see you ignored the naysayers on this board. I have learned that most of the members are old grumpy men with nothing to do but pick posts and boats apart. I use the forum for specific questions but try not to give them to much information.

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If you aren't going to give much information, then why even bother to ask questions? This is one of the best forums that I have been on when it comes to asking questions and getting helpful information in return.

Regarding the OP, here is what Bruce posted initially, "Ok so here are the questions I would love some feedback on. If you think we're being naive, by all means, share your opinion. I like to go into these projects knowing all my blind spots."

I think there have been some great replies. Yes, most folks on this forum wouldn't own a woodie, but there have posted a lot of valid reasons why in their replies.

I think the OP was able to make a much more informed decision, knowing the pros and cons of owning a wooden boat, based on the actual experience of folks who have or currently own a wooden boat.

Jim

Derik said:

I have learned that most of the members are old grumpy men with nothing to do but pick posts and boats apart. I use the forum for specific questions but try not to give them to much information.

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Yea, I hate all those opposing opinions. When I post I want 100% agreement. And those grumpy old men.... just because they've been owned boats for 50 years they think they know everything.

We should create a new forum. "The REAL boaters forum" Nobody over 30, certification that you will never disagree with a post, and will only post verifiable facts. No opinions allowed.

Forward the link to me.

I look at feedback as something to navigate, not something to accept or reject. What's applicable and what's not? What parts of a suggested contain applicable info, and what parts aren't applicable? What suggestions are based on different values than your own?


I think the OP has done a really good job navigating the mine field, sorting the wheat from the chaff, and applying it to the actual boat and situation. That's what it's all about.

I think you’re on the right track with your thoughts. Folks that I was crazy to buy a wooden boat. After surveys I moved forward with eyes wide open and so glad that I did. We enjoy the heck out of her.

Jim

Thanks all. Yea, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer here. All the feedback was really useful for me to calibrate.

The learning curve on every new project is V shaped. Seems stupid easy at first, then you research more and realize how stupid you are, but if you keep plugging along you can sometimes start to see daylight again. I think I just passed the low water mark.

Right now I have estimated 180 tasks, or 640hrs of work over 6-9 months. 170-200hrs of that we will hire out for the sanding, scraping, prep and paint. That will make it less cruel and unusual punishment. I've then assigned 160hrs to myself over the next 6 months, mostly for the harder projects, mechanical and electric. We have 2 other close family friends that want to join our little adventure, so everybody else will chip in on the interior (about 150hrs). But I still expect a lot will fall to me, and thats ok. Oddly enough I enjoy these types of projects.

Part of the equation is also to get all our kids involved. It will hopefully be an important memory for them to see their hard work turn into something they can be proud of and enjoy for years to come.

As for the money, its kinda inconsequential for 3 partners. If the boat sinks, we will laugh about it over some drinks. I've budgeted $43k over 3 years on it, including slip and insurance.

thebruce said:

Thanks all. Yea, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer here. All the feedback was really useful for me to calibrate.

The learning curve on every new project is V shaped. Seems stupid easy at first, then you research more and realize how stupid you are, but if you keep plugging along you can sometimes start to see daylight again. I think I just passed the low water mark.

Right now I have estimated 180 tasks, or 640hrs of work over 6-9 months. 170-200hrs of that we will hire out for the sanding, scraping, prep and paint. That will make it less cruel and unusual punishment. I've then assigned 160hrs to myself over the next 6 months, mostly for the harder projects, mechanical and electric. We have 2 other close family friends that want to join our little adventure, so everybody else will chip in on the interior (about 150hrs). But I still expect a lot will fall to me, and thats ok. Oddly enough I enjoy these types of projects.

Part of the equation is also to get all our kids involved. It will hopefully be an important memory for them to see their hard work turn into something they can be proud of and enjoy for years to come.

As for the money, its kinda inconsequential for 3 partners. If the boat sinks, we will laugh about it over some drinks. I've budgeted $43k over 3 years on it, including slip and insurance.

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Talk about a healthy way to look at it!! Bruce - Get It On!!! - Art

Closed on the GB32 today. Thanks everyone for the advice and recommendations. Allowed us to go into the project with eyes open. Should be a fun project and will post update of the build along the way.

Ps - that advice about insurance was spot on. What a wonky process. The first broker told us he couldn't get anyone to underwrite it, and the only one that would wanted $1k for a liability only policy while on the hard. Then called my local State Farm guy and he got us a killer policy for a couple hundred bucks.

thebruce said:

Closed on the GB32 today. Thanks everyone for the advice and recommendations. Allowed us to go into the project with eyes open. Should be a fun project and will post update of the build along the way.

Ps - that advice about insurance was spot on. What a wonky process. The first broker told us he couldn't get anyone to underwrite it, and the only one that would wanted $1k for a liability only policy while on the hard. Then called my local State Farm guy and he got us a killer policy for a couple hundred bucks.

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Great news! Enjoy her and keep us up to date on the progress, can't wait for my next woody project =)

thebruce said:

Closed on the GB32 today. Thanks everyone for the advice and recommendations. Allowed us to go into the project with eyes open. Should be a fun project and will post update of the build along the way.

Ps - that advice about insurance was spot on. What a wonky process. The first broker told us he couldn't get anyone to underwrite it, and the only one that would wanted $1k for a liability only policy while on the hard. Then called my local State Farm guy and he got us a killer policy for a couple hundred bucks.

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Good for ya Bruce. Couple hundred bucks for ins... sounds great! Can you relate the coverage provided?

Looking forward to your input as you get the GB in best condition.

Way to go kid. That's a hell of a project and a hell of a good decision you've made there. Once in a lifetime experience. Wish you all the best.&#55357;&#56397;

thebruce said:

Ps - that advice about insurance was spot on. What a wonky process. The first broker told us he couldn't get anyone to underwrite it, and the only one that would wanted $1k for a liability only policy while on the hard. Then called my local State Farm guy and he got us a killer policy for a couple hundred bucks.

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Bruce - any issues from marina about a slip or concerns at the yard about hauling an older wooden boat? I was one of the people who expressed caution about these items (including insurance) and a real-life data point would be helpful.

Good luck on the project. Sounds like you have a fun crew to work with. Updates on how the partnership works out would be helpful along the way too.

Peter

Thanks all!

@art - As for coverage, it was 1/3 what I was budgeting and painless with State Farm. We got the boat insured at its survey value of $38k (4x what we paid) + $1m liability + up to 6 additionally insured for $529/yr. They dont seem to treat wood boats differently. Its just classified as "other". I think State Farm is more at the local agents discretion and is more insuring "you" than the boat. He was a great guy and already sold me on a personal umbrella policy too

@mvweebles - As for marinas, ive not seen any restrictions on wood boats in any of the 5-6 marinas ive talked to so far. Its currently at the Berkley marina but we will be moving it over to Tiburon after we finish the bulk of the exterior work. There is a little known marina here that is 5 mins from my house. We will then do the interior over the winter here.

I also havent seen any issues with yards and wood boats. KKMI is the best yard in the area and has a team of woodworkers. They were pros hauling it. The project manager had been working on this specific boat for 30 years and called it a "57 chevy of the sea". He was excited to see it come back to life and said they could mill any of the window frames or quarter round I needed. I just needed to bring them a sample. They also credited me the survey haul out on the next bottom job, so it will only be $1200.

There are some other yards in Sausalito that specialize in wood boats and I heard for more extensive work there are yards in the delta that focus on wood boats and are less costly. Im going to be speaking to some of them to know whos whos and where the best ROI is for different jobs.

As for the partnership, its three good family friends and kids all about the same age. Ones a lawyer so we assigned a partnership agreement to him. The $s come out of everyone's fun budget so nobody really cares. But we do need to think through some scenarios on how we deal with them. The only thing we have decided so far is we will have quarterly board meetings with heavy drinking and a gavel. Good decisions are always made like that

Talk about FUN in boating... you and crew take the cake!

TY for ins layout. I may call State Farm! What franchise did you use. We're in West Marin. Tollycraft docked under cover in Stockton... delta area.

T B, looks like you know something about scheduling tasks, good on you. Labor & materials constraints.

When I started going through all the systems on my boat 5 years ago, I found myself going up to marine hardware store sometimes 3 or 4 times a day for screws, fittings, etc. That was OK when store was at the top of the dock.

But that place closed a couple years ago. Now, is 12 mile drive for a SST #8 panhead square drive.

Point being, don't overlook how much of your day gets spent as a go-fer for stuff. If you can hand some of that off to help, then you can keep going on labor, up to a point.

Looking at the map, appears you got to get over to Sausalito for boat stuff, unless you know better.

I will say, there's worse places to go through a boat than Tiburon! Had a lot of fun years past next door in Belvedere.

Good luck with your boat, looking forward to the story.