REALLY Frustrating Brightwork Issue

cap rails are notorious for allowing water to wick up from an unfinished out of sight bottom.

Bay view makes a key point. Believe water is a major reason for failure. Commonly at end grain which is why some put vanish into joints after sealant is removed and before it’s replaced. Until the wood is bone dry varnish will fail which why good acetone washes help. Prep is more important than application. Prefer foam brushes for fairly flat surfaces but in spite of expense and annoyance of cleaning after use have found if you tape well a good diagonally cut badger brush works well for doing that small bit of overhangs on cap rails.

Timber coloured self priming exterior acrylic paint is still going strong after 4 years in the tropical sun on ours.

Machine sanded flaking and stained rails back to bare timber with 60 grit, rolled in 2 coats of paint, end of story.

The black is common with screws that are too long coming from the underside. When you lean on the rail, if the screws are too close to the surface, the point eventually breaks the surface and the varnish will allow a leak there.
When cap rail screws become loose, many put in a longer screw instead of repairing the existing screw hole. After a few years you have screws that are as long as the cap rail thickness.

the answer is explained in your pictures. It is moisture, plain and simple.

I painted mine, glad I did!

pete

I am fixing all my varnish problems. I am painting all the exterior teak. Looks nice too.

I`ll just gloat for a moment, my 2005 Integrity 386 FB has NO exterior teak, though the stuff inside is pretty extensive. The previous IG had heaps of external teak, which I`m pleased to see the new owner has taken to sanding and varnishing with a vengeance, it looks beautiful.

A greater vengeance is not having any.

Delfin said:

And now you know why I don't have any bright work on my boats anymore.

Click to expand...

Menzies,

You are fighting an uphill battle with ‘varnish’ in Ajax.

But really nothing looks better.

Back when I was doing it professionally, we always treated teak prior to paint or varnish, to deal with the oily nature of the wood. Can’t remember what we used, acetone or whatever, but there is info on this on the web.

I would think about a more durable product that straight up poly varnish products just because of your location.

I have switched to Awlwood. You just want to tryout the different primers on a test piece. Not much difference between yellow and red, but clear is really clear, and if you are looking for that warm amber look of traditional varnish, the clear primer won’t do it.

One thing I like about the Awlwood is that moisture is your friend, not your enemy. The other is that you can get multiple build coats without sanding. The data sheets have good directions on redcoat time, number of coats, temp windows, etc.

You can get it at Lamb’s

If the sealant ,goop , glue between the pieces allow any movement the varnish will eventually fail.

A tight furniture style joint is far less hassle than a gap full of goop.

Perhaps filling with epoxy or teak shims with epoxy might work.

Where do you get this Alwood? I’m thinking about stripping my brightwork bad spots and repairing.

For those here parading around as ultra smart painting their varnish will go silent about the time they sell the family yacht.
These are pleasure boats and people expect varnish.

I agree Eric. Many people want varnish. At least for the first few years of ownership. Then paint looks better and better as time passes. Lol

Bright work looks beautiful, on someone else's boat

MinWax Helmsman is a polyurethane and does not stand up on exterior work. Yes, it has UV inhibitors, but it is not flexible enough. For what you are doing you must use "old school" spar varnish. You will have problems now if you don't remove most the polyurethane b/4 applying the spar.
I am a big fan of Minwax Helmsman and have used it for years on furniture I have built and even teak but always interior.
Of course your end grain must be sealed and the exposed underside of your caps as well.

Brooksie,
Yes I’ve had a lot of success w high oil spar varnish.
I read here on TF about the problems w newer supposedly better products.

Folks, it's not the product.


I split the job into three. Around the cockpit, around the pilot house/Portuguese Bridge, and around the bow. Same process, same product.

I completed each section fully before moving onto the next one. The other two section are fine, this did not happen to them.

I suspect, given it was may, by the time I got to the bow last there was either more humidity in the air, or the wood wasn't dry from dew etc.

Yup,
Dew would do it.
Even dew that soaked it and got trapped only to surface later.

David Burgess said:

Where do you get this Alwood? I’m thinking about stripping my brightwork bad spots and repairing.

Click to expand...

Awlwood is an Awlgrip product so search online. Your local full service yard should be able to get it for you at a better price than online.

It’s not a product that you can use to fix just the bad spots, it’s more of a strip it all off and start from scratch product.

from my experience, I'd agree with those in the moisture camp. My 1979 OA has plenty of wood that is out in the weather all the time. Seems to me that anytime moisture finds a pin hole in the varnish, it makes a black spot that slowly expands and then starts flaking the varnish from the movement.
The last three years I've been using Total Boat Gleam. Reason being that I can slather on multiple coats without sanding in-between. I'm in the PNW and so have to take advantage of weather windows to get the job done. This year I also tried their water base product on the rails forward of the Portuguese. Time will tell how well it holds up. Again, it was a product that I could put multiple coats on in a days time.
I will also add that I'm not a perfectionist. On an old boat, sometimes good enough is more then adequate. My method is to strip with a heat gun and a scraper followed by light sanding. Wipe down with acetone, and get two coats of the varnish primer sealer quickly Then I put as many coast of the Gleam on as I can get in a day. Usually 4-5. I usually get two seasons before issues arise, and then I decide if the whole section needs to be redone or just fix that section. Looks good from 10 ft back. Good enough!

jp

"For those here parading around as ultra smart painting their varnish will go silent about the time they sell the family yacht.
These are pleasure boats and people expect varnish."

The usual method of painting over varnish is to slop on 3 or more coats of varnish , any varnish, Then primer and any good paint works.

The finish sold for decks works well for a 10 ft "wood" finish.

It is less work to remove the paint and varnish barrier coats than refinish ignored bright work if the next owner wants to look at teak.

PMF1984 said:

Awlwood is an Awlgrip product so search online. Your local full service yard should be able to get it for you at a better price than online.

It’s not a product that you can use to fix just the bad spots, it’s more of a strip it all off and start from scratch product.

Click to expand...

Agree. Awl-wood is a system. Once done properly you'd never go back.

My first hands on marine varnish experience was in 1956 on a gorgeous vessel that was 30 years old at the time. Then as now, the secret is in the prep work. Even better if done in a shed with no sun or moisture.

Looks to me like moisture in the wood caused coating to fail or failed finish allowed moisture in.

Which came first? Chicken/egg.

Remedy is the same either way. Remove failed finish, thorough clean and dry wood then apply coating as you did before.

Moisture!

50 years of Carpentry , cabinetmaking and fine woodworking and the last 10 working on boats. Failing to insure the air and surface temperatures and moisture level are the greatest cause of Finish failure!

menzies said:

Back in May I went around all the cap rail on Sonas, scraped out and sanded all the spots, filled with four coats of poly, then went over everything with three coats. It all looked great.

About four weeks ago the varnish on my bow cap rail literally exploded! The varnish on the other cap rails is fine - the top coat is flaking a bit but nothing more than the usual Florida wear and tear, a light sanding in the spring and a couple of new coats will be fine.

The bow rail however looks like someone walked around and poured acid on it. I am now going to have to take a sander to it and bring it to all back to bare teak and start again.

Any ideas why this happened to the bow rail and not the rest? I was wondering if doing this in May when there may have been humidity in the air trapped moisture under the poly - but wouldn't that have happened to the rest as well?

I did have mechanics on the bow dismantling and rebuilding my windlasss but I can't see how they could have caused this.

First photo is what I was doing in May, others are examples of the rail now.

Click to expand...

Happened to us

The same thing happened to us on our trawler. All the way around the cap rail. After much discussion and expert opinions, the only thing that made sense to us is that whatever was used originally on the wood, sank in and is forever incompatible with any finish, except of course, more of whatever was on here originally. We sanded, bleached, washed with every solvent. Couldn’t ever get hat bright new finish. So we gave in and cleaned, bleached, and oiled it.

Wood expands and contracts continually, so its a battle to maintain any finish applied.
Any joints are particularly prone to cracking and then moisture ingress.
A lot of polyurethane products have poor adhesion when applied to bare wood and this exacerbates any cracking issues down the road.
From the photos, it looks like the original base coats were some sort of poly and if you look at photo 3 - the one with the zigzag joint, you can see that the entire finish layer is 'lifting' at the top LH edge of the finish that remains.
Photo 2 shows small longitudinal cracks in the parent wood which have allowed the finish to crack via expansion/contraction thus allowing moisture in and lifting the finish.
Photo 3 - zigzag joint has cracked - again allowing moisture in and lifting the finish.
This problem can only be cured for the long term by stripping all of it and starting again.
I have been refinishing boats professionally in Florida for 20 years and this is my method which works.
Bare teak - build up with 10 coats of Epifanes (best UV) high gloss varnish, sanding between each coat with 220 grit.
Don't bother with diluting the first coats - neat varnish will disappear into the teak and grip without any thinning.
Sand the last coat with 400 grit, clean carefully and on a calm day, apply one topcoat of 3 part Awlbrite finish.
Varnish degrades in sunlight and the Awlbrite will protect the varnish layer and give longevity.
Open out any joints as suggested to about 1/8" wide and 1/4" deep. Varnish as if they were 2 separate pieces.
Mask the joint after all is complete and caulk with black Teak Decking Systems caulk.
This will allow the joint to flex without cracking the finish.
Final note - don't be tempted to build up using polyurethanes including Awlwood. They are all deficient in UV (compared to quality marine varnish) and while the finish may look good, the color of the parent wood underneath will bleach out over time and look like s--t.
I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I've seen the results of all the so called wonder products that have come out over the years and I still use my method as above.
I would move with the times if I found a better way, but for my money it doesn't yet exist.

mickand said:

Wood expands and contracts continually, so its a battle to maintain any finish applied.
Any joints are particularly prone to cracking and then moisture ingress. This problem can only be cured for the long term by stripping all of it and starting again. Open out any joints as suggested to about 1/8" wide and 1/4" deep. Varnish as if they were 2 separate pieces.
Mask the joint after all is complete and caulk with black Teak Decking Systems caulk.
This will allow the joint to flex without cracking the finish."

Click to expand...

I do similar - Epiphanes 10 coats then caulking the joints (including underside of cap rail) after the varnishing is complete. There is no way you can prevent wood expansion & contraction with varnish or polymers so you have to plan to allow for it. I hired the local pro who maintains bright work on the Hinckleys and Back Coves (that abound in my marina) for a few hours to teach me how he does it. That's what he uses & it worked for me too. Spoiler -there is no product that will reliably last more than a year or two in the Southern sun (Awl wood may give 3 years or so but then a major pain removing it the next time. The extreme UV exposure down here is why the big boys do a light sand and recoat their brightwork every 6-12 months even though it still looks perfect! - applies more of the UV blocking varnish before the sun eats it and the moisture intrudes.

http://www.coelan-boat.com/

I know someone who got this and like it a lot. Clear coat that lasts up to 10 years on wood. Anyone here used it? You buy the clear and mix in a color stain.

I dont know if you can buy it here any longer...It could be it was too costly and they could not sell enough for retail sales.

Insequent said:

I'm speculating a bit, but it seems there are black spots or streaks common to the problem areas. That is likely to be mould & mildew. Prep with sanding wont remove it all, there will be some that is in the grain, or just under the surface. The natural oil in the teak can feed it, enabling it to grow. Once it has cracked the varnish then it can really get going....

So I am thinking that part of the answer will be to wash the teak with both detergent and a bleach solution prior to varnish.

Lots or folks advocate heat gun to remove old varnish to minimise sanding. It is possible that a benefit of doing that is that the heat could kill the mould & mildew also.

What is the varnish that you use?

Click to expand...

Yes - Moisture and mildew in wood grain.

Decades ago; having for years applied varnish on boats when young:

I recommend the following... Full varnish removal. Then wrap on a cloth [full tite wrap around the wood - old bath towel material cut into strips... and the like]. Then soak with 25% bleach 75% water mix. I'd let it get to point of near dry and soak with same mixture a second time. Then when nearly fully dry unwrap and let wood really, really dry out. Sand surface as desired. Clean off with rubbing alcohol on a rag. Again let dry [alcohol doesn't take long to disappear]. Stain if desired and coat with a clear finish [varnish?] as desired.

Be careful the bleach mix does not put bleached spots on deck/gunnel or in streaks down hull side. You may want other absorbent fabric atop plastic film underneath bleach soaked wrap around the hand rail.

sdowney717 said:

http://www.coelan-boat.com/

I know someone who got this and like it a lot. Clear coat that lasts up to 10 years on wood. Anyone here used it? You buy the clear and mix in a color stain.

I dont know if you can buy it here any longer...It could be it was too costly and they could not sell enough for retail sales.

Click to expand...

Coelan was available here maybe 10 years ago. I ceased using the Yard which stocked and promoted it, they were very enthused, kept some exposed wood finished with it on display,seemed to last and look good.