BAD captain

I think the point about ensuring adequate egress from all cabins is often overlooked on many pleasure boats. I used to keep my dink on davits over my forward hatch. After it was pointed out here on TF that my egress was now restricted, I devised plan B for dink storage on the swimstep.

My fwd steps are held in a latch, not hinged, so they can be repositioned and used to assist in exiting thru the fwd hatch.

On "Mimi's Oasis" the forward hatch is not directly above the bed, but rather aft of it by a foot or more. It would be incredibly difficult to exit through under even non-emergent conditions, and impossible for all but those who were both incredibly agile and had very good upper body strength.

A friend who has been with us on both Mimi's Oasis and Dix-Sept (Nordhavn) designed and built a stainless steel ladder that folds up into the "well" of the hatch. A decorative piece of plasticized material with velcro edges makes the hatch look almost invisible from the cabin, and nothing changes from outside. A small triangular handle dangles about 4 inches below the hatch space and is easy enough to grab for someone standing on the foot of the bed.

Make sure nobody is standing below, yank on that handle and the ladder falls, pushes aside the decorative piece and five sections cascade down and LOCK into position. The ladder is then rigid, terminates on the floor and provides egress. It takes about 1-2 minutes to re-stow the ladder, but so what. In a real emergency that is irrelevant, and in drills it is time well spent.

Even if the hatch was directly above the bed, perhaps on another boat, I think I would have my friend build a similar, but shorter ladder.

I would hope everyone actually practices getting out of a forward hatch. If you lack the upper body strength to pull yourself up and out, consider getting some sort of ladder.

At least on my boat the forward hatch would be the ONLY egress for those aboard who were in either of the two cabins or either of the two heads. It is an incredibly horrible thing to think of being trapped, perhaps at night, with no way of escaping.

Some might think "Well, if fire was licking at my butt I'll pull myself through that hatch", but guess what, you won't.

Helluva way to go.

Had not considered that the generally unused Bomar hatch on the cabin top of my downeast style boat is an escape hatch as well as a ventilator and skylight. One can stand on the bed and be far enough out the hatch to easily exit.

On Hobo, the forward hatch is over the bed but it is still too high to pull ourselves up and out. We never really thought much about it till the Conception sank. As a suggested on the Forum, we bought a collapsable ladder for $70. As with all our safety gear, hopefully we’ll never need it.

I wander if I can push hard enough to rip the canvas cover that is holding my hatch from opening . Maybe I should move the snaps to above the base

Larry M said:

On Hobo, the forward hatch is over the bed but it is still too high to pull ourselves up and out. We never really thought much about it till the Conception sank. As a suggested on the Forum, we bought a collapsable ladder for $70. As with all our safety gear, hopefully we’ll never need it.

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Where did you get it?

I bought a very similar ladder for exiting the forward hatch (too high to get out without a ladder). I saw picture of a Fleming with a similar ladder that was built it. I contacted Fleming and was told that most of their boats have the folding ladder as shown, and only one model had the built in ladder, and it is created in-house.

DC36Monk said:

Where did you get it?

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Amazon. The price has gone up.

South of Heaven said:

https://boattest.com/article/captain-conception-dive-boat-indicted-fire-killed-34

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This post makes a very good point.
Until now I had the attitude that I'm guessing many had... this situation is a terrible example of what can go wrong on a commercial vessel and something should be done so it doesn't happen again. What took way to long for me is that it applies equally to recreational vessels!
I feel bad that as a volunteer USPS Vessel Safety Examiner, I didn't make the recreational boater connection sooner and without this posts provocation.
Thanks guys... I got the message now and will take some appropriate action to pass it on the fellow examiners to include with their other discussion items with owners.
Many experienced boater, even many here on TF, are pretty vocal about how useless USPS / USCG Aux Vessel Safety Checks are and that would not allow a VSE aboard. I think some of these safety related discussion are possibly more important that simply checking whether boat owners carry the required equipment. The discussions helps encourage the proper mindset re: safety vs just having the right equipment to avoid a summons and fine. Safety goes WAY beyond just having the right equipment.
THANKS AGAIN

I think the thing to take away from this is how if any of the major items in the "rule of threes" had not happened this wouldn't have even made the news. It really was a very easy thing to have at the very least had smoke/fire detectors in working condition. I feel that was the major thing that would of prevented this tragedy. The "roving watch" requirement is a good idea .. but crew can fall asleep and that needed to be planned for.

Make sure you have adequate smoke and CO detectors!
HOLLYWOOD

FlyWright said:

I think the point about ensuring adequate egress from all cabins is often overlooked on many pleasure boats.

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To me there were really a few key issues that should have been addressed:

1) The number of electronic devices (phones, tablets, cameras, go-pro's) and their batteries demands for electricity have slowly grown over the years. I doubt the electrical system was ever upgraded to accomodate that.

2) The location of where those electronic devices were being charged.

3) Lithium Ion batteries. :|

4) The vessel owner should have never placed a bunk below the auxilliary escape hatch. That should have been an open space with a vertical ladder and adequate lighting, along with a safety debriefing that advised of its location and use.

#4 is really key, as it is my understanding that most didn't know that hatch was there, or how to find it in the dark and smoke.

Bacchus said:

This post makes a very good point.
Until now I had the attitude that I'm guessing many had... this situation is a terrible example of what can go wrong on a commercial vessel and something should be done so it doesn't happen again. What took way to long for me is that it applies equally to recreational vessels!
I feel bad that as a volunteer USPS Vessel Safety Examiner, I didn't make the recreational boater connection sooner and without this posts provocation.
Thanks guys... I got the message now and will take some appropriate action to pass it on the fellow examiners to include with their other discussion items with owners.
Many experienced boater, even many here on TF, are pretty vocal about how useless USPS / USCG Aux Vessel Safety Checks are and that would not allow a VSE aboard. I think some of these safety related discussion are possibly more important that simply checking whether boat owners carry the required equipment. The discussions helps encourage the proper mindset re: safety vs just having the right equipment to avoid a summons and fine. Safety goes WAY beyond just having the right equipment.
THANKS AGAIN

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There are so many safety equipment and emergency considerations that are not required by law but are still essential for ageing (and young) rec boaters like us. We could start a thread of important safety items and plans that go above and beyond the simplistic USCG/State requirements. I bet many here on TF have installed equipment and made contingency plans for their safety. I'd sure like to hear what others have come up with as a plan.

For example, I felt that having smoke detectors in all areas including my inverter cabinet and ER cameras to view while underway were important. While I have dealt with some false smoke alarms, I have also been alerted to ER smoke (fried alternator) and inverter smoke (fried inverter) through these systems. Now I'd never have a boat without them.

Pilots are always taught to foresee the problems and have a plan before they materialize. I try to carry that mentality into boating but am sure I've overlooked issues in the process, like when I positioned my dink over my fwd hatch.

I look fwd to hearing that others have planned for and how they've address it.

FlyWright said:

I think the point about ensuring adequate egress from all cabins is often overlooked on many pleasure boats. I used to keep my dink on davits over my forward hatch. After it was pointed out here on TF that my egress was now restricted, I devised plan B for dink storage on the swimstep.

My fwd steps are held in a latch, not hinged, so they can be repositioned and used to assist in exiting thru the fwd hatch.

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I think the ultimate is to actually climb out of the designated escape routes, both you and your spouse, so you know exactly what's involved, and whether you can actually do it. I know of one route on our boat where it wouldn't surprise me if I couldn't get out, and it would surprise me if my wife could get out. So I'm expecting we will need some sort of a ladder.

timb said:

I wander if I can push hard enough to rip the canvas cover that is holding my hatch from opening . Maybe I should move the snaps to above the base

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There is a company that makes hatch covers that attach to the lexan and so they don’t have snaps going into the deck. The cover goes up and down with the hatch. They are a white plastic. But they don’t do anything for leaky hatches like a canvas cover. Sorry, don’t remember the name of the company.

I am going to hold my most thoughts for now. I just want you all to know, The name of this thread be, "Freak Accident with tragic results"

My first job in Santa Barbara in the late 80s I was the 2nd Captain.
My 1st full time Job was on the sister ship and is what made it possible for me to move to Santa Barbara. I was the 2nd Captain and I worked directly under JB.

I can assure you he was far from a "Bad Captain" In fact he is one of the safest Captains around.

This freak accident could have happened while tied up at the dock. Remember, NOONE got out of the huge entrance or the escape hatch. I believe most if not all perished quickly by lack of oxygen.

The future will change when it comes to regulations and this is a good thing. I mean look how much we get searched at an airport for each battery we take onboard. Anyone remember Galaxy Note battery issue?

Anyway, JB is a good man and So is GF of T Aquatics.

I am deeply saddened for all 34 who perished as I am for their friends and family. I can assure you this is a very heavy load for any person to carry and JB will have to deal with that along with all the legal issues that come is way.

Tragic for all barley stats the depth of it.

When I worked for the FAA, they'd send us back to Oklahoma City to the Civil Aero Medical Institute (CAMI) for survival, ditch and emergency egress training every 4 years. They have an old airplane fuselage that has been modified with glycerin smoke generators and they'd make you exit in zero visibility. That was, pardon the pun, quite an eye opener!!

As important as it is to know and practice the exit process, it's also helpful to add an element of urgency to the drill to challenge the crew. Maybe wear a blindfold and have someone yelling "GET OUT, SMOKE!" and barking orders and questions to simulate the actual environment on shock and confusion during an emergency egress.

Then have a drink over the debrief and figure out how to make it better next time.

As to it being a freak accident, sorry I don’t buy it. It was no accident that there was no roving watch. That was a lack of leadership. The configuration of the boat is a completely different matter, but not assigning a watch or insuring that the watch is carried out is on the captain, plain and simple. That was not an accident. He may be your good friend, but he screwed up. We don’t know why he screwed up but he did, it wasn’t an accident.

Shrew said:

To me there were really a few key issues that should have been addressed:

4) The vessel owner should have never placed a bunk below the auxilliary escape hatch. That should have been an open space with a vertical ladder and adequate lighting, along with a safety debriefing that advised of its location and use.

#4 is really key, as it is my understanding that most didn't know that hatch was there, or how to find it in the dark and smoke.

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IIRC, it wasn't really an escape at all. In addition to the near-impossible access from below, it exited inside a cabinet in the galley which was the original area of involvement.


Not entirely sure whether to regard the captain as culprit or simply another victim, but criminal negligence has no meaning if it can't be applied to someone in this case.

Being a previous Santa Barbara resident I was shocked to see the accident happen, Truth Aquatics was known as a very good operation. As the Captain always takes responsibility everyone wants to put this on his shoulders. The vessel may have been equipped correctly with fire alarms and suffered an equipment failure, there may have been a person standing watch that fell asleep. If there was a fire event due to lithium batteries that could of produced absolutely toxic fumes that incapacitated everyone below prior to the crew being alerted to the fire.
In a event as this someone has to be the blame so deserved or not the Captain is that person in this case.

I hope as time and court cases proceed reasons why this happened will come to light and everyone learns form this tragedy.
HOLLYWOOD

The three-level, 75-foot vessel was anchored off Santa Cruz Island when it caught fire. At the time, five crew members were asleep in their bunks in the wheelhouse and in the crew quarters on the upper deck, while one crew member and all 33 passengers were asleep in the bunkroom down below.

It doesn’t look like there was anyone on watch. That isn’t an accident...

Unfortunately - a safety culture is a learned behavior - doesn't come naturally as most folks assume. Usually takes a close call or bad personal experience for it to become engrained. My first job was in a Steel Mill - originally built in 1890.

with more than 2500 employees - the average anuual fatality rate was 7. During my first year - 23 souls - the entire engineering department - died while inspecting a new scrubber facility - which had filled with CO from blast furnace gases leaking into a low spot. Got my attention to say the least! From that accident and 30 years of safety training during other heavy industrial assignements - I developed my own culture of PSA (personal safety awareness) which has served me well over the years. As Flywright mentioned, flight training is a big help in developing a "plan B" attitude - ie - what am I going to do if this thing quits - RIGHT NOW? There is a collary to my signature regarding Murphy's Law - if something can go wrong - it probably will! Keeps you on your toes!



So what are Olebird's PSA rules for boating:


Always safety brief new guest and crew and expect a brief from Capt on unfamiliar vessels.



Demo & locate fire & CO alarms, engine shut down, First aid kits, fire extinguishers, Life jackets, smoke hoods, hatchet, and radio DSC operations (helm and hand held). Explain whistles and flash lights on PFD's. Bilge pump manual switches



Brief on emergency exits, fire fighting at the dock and on open water. What to tell 911 if you need help - XXX Marina - 100 Lake view Rd "E" dock slip 19 - access code is 123 (briefing card back pocket of helm seat - with CPR instructions) request alert State Troupers and fire department to launch safety and fireboats asap) - dry stand pipe on the dock. How to disconnect shore power lines safely



Know who can and cannot swim! Know who requires glasses or contacts to see (or legally blind - wife) Brief on throw ring, what to do and expect if you are forced into the water. Rally point if separated. Main electrical panel. Dock side main power breaker/disconnect Electrocution hazard of water around dock.


Things I've added to the boat:


Smoke/CO detectors with strobes and audio alarms - sleeping area, ER and cockpit (don't forget "station wagon effect - CO accumulation in the cockpit and/or enclosures.)


Smoke hoods - location and use. Main Battery disconnect. Generator shut down proceedure. Main electrical panel. Dock side main power breaker/disconnect Electrocution hazard of water around dock.



Step ladder to access front hatch


Beefed up first aid kit - including sun screen for kids - Eyewash to clear diesel or gasoline from eyes - Benadryl, cortisone 10 cream and tylenol - wasp spray - for nest on dock or boat. Added flashlights and whistles to all PFD's. Space blankets.



Large, floating LED worklight with magnet base, light weight hatchet with cover for emergency cutting of dock lines or should anyone get tangled in fishing lines or nets. ( I also take note of how adjacent boats are tied up and how to cut them loose in the event of fire)


Floating marine radio hand held.


As for the dive boat - I would never have considered staying on that boat overnight if at all. Sometimes you just have to say NO!


All due respect to JB, that boat was an accident waiting to happen - nothing "freak" about it.

They had a small fire on a sister boat the year before and apparently didn’t change procedures much if at all. Should have been a large red flag.

Its why I love our top deck accommodations
And even the guest cabins are at deck level
Plenty of ventilation
No ER heat = no a/c required and we live and cruise in the tropics
Easy and multiple escape routes

Below decks are ER and storage rooms.

Every boat that had below decks accom was rejected.

How about suggestions for renaming this thread since it is trending toward responsible safety planning and emergency equipment.

Any suggestions from the gang or objections from the OP?

I have cast, smooth, folding mast steps mounted on the wall below the front hatch to help hatch egress for old wrinklies like the people I hang out with. When you stand on the bed your head and shoulders stick out so the mast steps help. Just throwing this in...

Agreed - "Bad Captain" assumes facts not in evidence or unknowable motives. It also suggests accountability rest with a single individual. I strongly believe accountability rest with nearly everyone involved - divers, crew, captain, owners and regulators. We should not contribute to scape goating the captain.


How about "Avoiding another Conception Tragedy - 34 SOB RIP"

Olebird said:

So what are Olebird's PSA rules for boating:

Always safety brief new guest and crew and expect a brief from Capt on unfamiliar vessels.

Demo & locate fire & CO alarms, engine shut down, First aid kits, fire extinguishers, Life jackets, smoke hoods, hatchet, and radio DSC operations (helm and hand held). Explain whistles and flash lights on PFD's. Bilge pump manual switches

Brief on emergency exits, fire fighting at the dock and on open water. What to tell 911 if you need help - XXX Marina - 100 Lake view Rd "E" dock slip 19 - access code is 123 (briefing card back pocket of helm seat - with CPR instructions) request alert State Troupers and fire department to launch safety and fireboats asap) - dry stand pipe on the dock. How to disconnect shore power lines safely

Know who can and cannot swim! Know who requires glasses or contacts to see (or legally blind - wife) Brief on throw ring, what to do and expect if you are forced into the water. Rally point if separated. Main electrical panel. Dock side main power breaker/disconnect Electrocution hazard of water around dock.

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Because of Covid, I haven't actually had a guest onboard yet. But I am working on a check list that will be page 2 in the CHiTON'S log book. It might be a bummer for some guests to listen to how to use a fire extinguisher (and their locations, uses, fire ports, etc.), but having a list will impress upon them that A) this is required info and B) this is serious sh*t. The same for all safety equipment.

On a plane, I listen to the attendant tell me how to put on the oxygen mask and I hope that the pilot can land the plane if that Dixie cup ever drops. On a boat, my guest may become the pilot, fire fighter, navigator, medic, etc. Having gone through the safety list would assist them and may save my boat and bacon.

Olebird said:

Agreed - "Bad Captain" assumes facts not in evidence or unknowable motives. It also suggests accountability rest with a single individual. I strongly believe accountability rest with nearly everyone involved - divers, crew, captain, owners and regulators. We should not contribute to scape goating the captain.


How about "Avoiding another Conception Tragedy - 34 SOB RIP"

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Respectfully I disagree. The captain is ultimately responsible for the vessel and the safety of the crew and guests aboard his/her vessel. In this case it appears that he was negligent and that is why he has been indicted on 34 counts of manslaughter.

I don't blame the divers (guests on the boat) for the tragedy. If the electrical system on the boat was not up to the ability of recharging the diver's electronic gear, then it either should have upgraded or there should have been limits on what could be charged.

Also, regulations are bare-bones minimal standards. A responsible owner/operator/captain of a commercial vessel should be operating said vessel above these minimal standards, as appropriate.

My suggestion for the thread would be to start a new thread, and maybe pin it, dealing with vessel safety. The egress ladders and hatches added to some boats are excellent examples!

Jim

Charged and guilty are separate things.

If the discussion is full of "what ifs"...that's all fine and dandy....also is the boat "should be operated above minimum standards"...well we don't know how much it was or wasnt or do we? All still pretty important as to "guilty or not guilty" or "bad captain".

Unless you are a pretty well up to speed on vessel regs, vessel safety, pertinent laws and part of the NTSB team (or privy to the actual report for several weeks to study)......

.....not sure anyone here can be sure of anything about the incident except a tiny portion of the facts that are obvious or already released "officially".