loran comeback?

The newest military branch (Space Cadets) and the FAA are getting concerned about the ease with which GPS can be knocked out.

One solution they are looking out is a modernized " eLoran" system.
It will be digital not analog.

The Coast Guard claims for $300-$400million they can rebuild enough land stations (19) to restore a much more accurate system.

A single GPS sat. is $577 million .Multiple sats. are required for a fix.

Your old Loran is junk but if approved the new system will be more robust.

That’s pretty cool. Would probably be even more accurate depending on what they make available to the average Joe. Wonder how far off shore it will carry?

FF said:

The newest military branch (Space Cadets) and the FAA are getting concerned about the ease with which GPS can be knocked out.

One solution they are looking out is a modernized " eLoran" system.
It will be digital not analog.

The Coast Guard claims for $300-$400million they can rebuild enough land stations (19) to restore a much more accurate system.

A single GPS sat. is $577 million .Multiple sats. are required for a fix.

Your old Loran is junk but if approved the new system will be more robust.

Click to expand...

Interesting. Do you have any links to the rough plans? The old loran system was for near coastal and useful for some inland. GPS is world wide. For loran to replace GPS completely it would have to cover land areas as well as over water.

As an interesting aside. In the early days of GPS before the constellation was complete I used a Northstar unit that combined Loran and GPS taking advantage of both system's good attributes. Loran's repeatability and at the time always on, GPS's absolute accuracy, even in the days of selective availability. As we worked a region the Northstar would use GPS to build a correction for Loran. I could see the accuracy improve very quickly. That was long ago before we put near 100% trust in electronic positioning and chart plotters were still just a dream.

Who knows where we will head.....


https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/europe-gives-up-on-eloran



French and German government sources said they did not need or use eLoran, pointing to Europe's satellite navigation system Galileo. A German official said Galileo offered an encrypted navigation signal and "maximal protection" against manipulation. An official from Denmark said the country had opted out.
Norway's Ministry of Transport and Communication said eLoran was "outdated and had very few users", adding that lighthouses, markers, and radar beacons provided sufficient navigation safety in waters near the shore.

It will be interesting to see the future of electronic positioning. GPS has changed the world in many ways. But it's an aging system. Here's link that details the age of the GPS satellites. List of GPS satellites. GPS has a known potential for hostile interruptions. Far too many good links out there to post just one or two. The results of a search for "GPS hositle interruptions". The answer may be to harden and upgrade the present GPS system. Or move to something entirely new. One of the challenges will be that GPS is in nearly everything we use and do. We can't just drop the present signal transmission and receiver processing in favor of something new. The old will have to be supported for quite some time to avoid huge economic disruption. GPS has about $1 billion a day in economic impact in the US. And far greater impact globally.

Maybe now that there is pressure on space launches and equipment from the commercial world, such as SpaceX, the success rate of satellites, newer tech and replacements by quick launches won't make it such a vulnerable system.

Interesting with FT8 and other digital signals out there they do get out far under the noise floor and are able to be recieved. I can see something along those lines for a fix.

Hate to say it but, the US has been too generous with the GPS tech. There are people in the world who consider, defeating any and all tech a challenge.

OldDan1943 said:

Hate to say it but, the US has been too generous with the GPS tech. There are people in the world who consider, defeating any and all tech a challenge.

Click to expand...

In the immortal words of Jack Willings of Chance, MD, "Some people just need killing".

Ted

O C Diver said:

In the immortal words of Jack Willings of Chance, MD, "Some people just need killing".

Ted

Click to expand...

and such an easy target. A HARM tuned to 1.575GHz...

eLoran. A solution in search of a problem. Total pork barrel project with no value. It will never be adopted.

"Total pork barrel project with no value. It will never be adopted"

The Chinese have already steered one sat into another , creating thousands of chunks of 19,000 mph debris.

A single nuke set off in orbit by any terrorist gang that is given a rocket and old trawler as launch vessel , would do even more damage .

The world's modern defense and transportation systems require precision navigation, a return to the A & N system of the 1930s is impossible.

Govs always get accused after something happens "Why didn't they do something?"

The above dangers has been known for decades.Finally a solution may be possible.

The world now relies upon GPS signals in hundreds of ways. Nearly 30 years ago I was working on a project in the former Soviet Union where three different coordinate systems were utilized to confuse the NATO and US military positioning and guidance systems. The only people confused were the individual regions where land surveying was all screwed up.

Within weeks we had transferred the old Soviet Data to new user friendly and accepted geodetic systems used worldwide, whether in land surveying or maritime use. The transfer of that data to GPS systems in place at that time was easily accomplished. Our Russian workmates were astounded as to how easily we could find our way around using digital cartography they never knew existed.

GPS and digital surveying in current and improved guise is here to stay. With all of us able to pull up lat and lon from a smart phone or handheld radio even today's Luddites with charts can survive without pulling out a sextant.

sunchaser, what is the name of the app where I can put in Lat and Long numerically and get a chart of the area, please.

OldDan1943 said:

sunchaser, what is the name of the app where I can put in Lat and Long numerically and get a chart of the area, please.

Click to expand...

Here are the three ways I've recently used lat lon data to establish marine positioning.
--SeaNav App
--paper charts
--Nobeltec

All sorts of laptop programs are out there to do the same or better than Nobeltec. A few years while on the bridge of a ship they had a computer based commercial product that was astounding. My Navionics on an I Pad should work too to pull up a chart of that area.

The guide books we use for AK have lat lon data for sites and anchorages that we pull up quite handily on Nobeltec and then set a course accordingly.

FF said:

The world's modern defense and transportation systems require precision navigation, a return to the A & N system of the 1930s is impossibe

Click to expand...

GNNS systems are in place by US, Russia, EU, China, India, Japan, if they all go offline there probably won't be any need for planes or ships. There are a billion commercial receivers in use today. eLoran will never be implemented. The R&D money for it was earmarked in some defense contract to buy a vote from some Senator.

SeaNav has not been upgraded in a few years.
Maybe still worthy of down loading for the iPad IF there is a way to input Lat and Long and get a chart.

Modern weapon guidance systems and military navigation can and is accurately achieved completely onboard (when required) without the need of satellites. During hostilities, in areas of interest, when your GPS enabled device shakes hands with a satellite, unless you own that satellite it can send you back any number of wavelengths the operator dictates. The owner or operator of the satellites also knows where you are. Both can be a little bothersome. You are lost and interested parties know exactly where you are. There are a lot cleverer ways. GPS works just fine to stop me bumping into stuff and find my fishing spot, I’ve just got to work out how to catch em.

SoWhat said:

eLoran. A solution in search of a problem. Total pork barrel project with no value. It will never be adopted.

Click to expand...

Until we get into the next war (with the ChiComs or anyone else with some rocket or laser tech) and those GPS satellites start dropping from the sky like Mallards on opening day of duck season.

GPS devices don’t actually contact satellites and transmit information to them. They only receive data from satellites – data that’s being always-transmitted. However, GPS isn’t the only way devices can determine your location.


https://www.howtogeek.com/137862/htg-explains-how-gps-actually-works/

GPS has vulnerabilities. No doubt a robust backup is needed. There is lots of history with LORAN and eLORAN.

What most people don’t realize is that GPS provides the timing source for virtually all of worldwide communications including cell phones and financial transactions like stock market. What if all of our communication devices and associated services fail.

That why the US Government declared GPS as critical infrastructure. Too bad we do not have a plan B as backup.

I think its called the SPACE FORCE, but you are probably right, it will turn out to be a bunch of space cadets.

A prudent mariner always has two ways of determining his position.

Or her position.

Or the position of someone who can't make up their mind.
Or is a little bit of both.
Or neither.

One of the things that I think would be of great assistance should GPS go out is the ability to still use the "charts" in the Multi Function Display for piloting. I have both a hand bearing compass and a Hansen Bearing Board (a type of pelorus) on the boat. Neither of them are really of any use with the MFD, but a simple software app would make them easy to use for inshore navigation.

Zoom out on the MFD so that you can see on the screen a few navigation markers, radio towers, etc. Put the MFD in "Magnetic Bearing Mode" (the app). Touch a stylus to the radio tower, up pops a screen where you put in the bearing from your hand bearing compass. 325 degrees. Zip, a bearing line appears on your MFD. Do a second bearing to the day marker. Zip, now you have intersecting lines that shows your position. Be anal and put in another bearing. Zip, there you are. Much faster than old school walking parallel rulers over from a compass rose for each bearing.

Loran was okay if you already had waypoints established or were in the open ocean. Paper charts and piloting was clumsy mainly because it was kind of slow and you needed a big navigation table (and the charts got so many course lines on them that they could be illegible). But a stylus, a simple app on the MFD, and a hand bearing compass would be simple. No GPS and no LORAN required.

Maybe there already is such a thing and I just don't know about it. That wouldn't surprise me.

RDF's

Hate to seem like a luddite,but have we all forgotten about RDF's? I built a Heathkit in '78 and used it to navigate across Lake Michigan multiple times.

It was clumsy to use,wife had to steer and call out compass readings, I had to plot on the dinette table, but the positions were quite accurate. Blew her mind when we came in sight of the precise points I predicted!

All it depended on was AM stations on shore. GPS is miraculous....but one nuke can take out the satellites. Now with all the chart data, a device could easily be made to gather the headings, given known signal source locations, and....ta da! "You are here"!

Loran was RDF on steroids! as a more extensive system with greater range, depended on relatively cheap shore stations,delivered by truck instead of rocket ships, easily replicated and now probably just truck-mounted rigs that could be operational in minutes....for a few bucks in tolls!

You want to depend on indefensible satellites for everything on air, sea and land.....or a big rig with a genset and antenna? What's not to like?

Yeah, I tossed the Heathkit, all inshore these days, Navionics on the iPhone, Hudson River, but.....!!


Phil Little, Carver 33, Weehawken NJ

Without a 3D nav system that is trustworthy, landing aircraft will have to revert to older less able systems.

With a portable radio and a depth sounder most boats could navigate,

but the days of landing in 100ft alt & 1/4 mile viz are probably over.

FF said:

Without a 3D nav system that is trustworthy, landing aircraft will have to revert to older less able systems.

With a portable radio and a depth sounder most boats could navigate,

but the days of landing in 100ft alt & 1/4 mile viz are probably over.

Click to expand...

Throw in a magnetic compass.

Sidenote: We are all planning and worrying about something that may never effect us in our travels. If we stay in the ICW aka the ditch, we can go by the mile markers and or stopping along the way, with paper chart in hand, to ask, "Where in the hell am I?" "Open Ocean" travels, an increase demand for schools for sextants.

Feel sorry for the planes in the air, if it ever happens, no markers.

I went on a 2 week repositioning cruise ..... On the bridge, surrounded by all the electronics, I noticed something totally out of place, a wooden box. I told the 2nd officer, I do know what's in the box..... a sextant. SMILE The captain was intent on training the bridge personnel on old school methods too.
SMILE, We should all learn to do some dead reckoning.
We know our position when we departed so updating it every hour or two should be a no brainer. The only unknown is the current. They sell a book of seasonal charts for known currents too!!! Mine is close to 20 years old, currents do change. SIGH
We are famous for planning for something that will not happen in our life time. Few, if any of us, carry 2 weeks of MREs. I guess we learn to rely on canned goods.

Is anyone POSITIVE one nuke, even 10 will take out GPS satellites. Some have been "hardened".... if a Faraday cage protects against lightening strikes....who is certain about GPS protection ( and now we know you probably have top secret, compartmentalized clearance.

OldDan1943 said:

Throw in a magnetic compass.

Sidenote: We are all planning and worrying about something that may never effect us in our travels. If we stay on the ICW, we can go by the mile markers and or stopping along the way, with paper chart in hand, to ask, "Where in the hell am I?" Open Ocean travels, an increased demand for schools for sextants.
Feel sorry for the planes in the air, if it ever happens.
I went on a 2 week repositioning cruise ..... On the bridge, surrounded by all the electronics, I noticed something totally out of place, a wooden box. I told the 2nd officer, I do know what's in the box..... a sextant. SMILE

Click to expand...

Falling back on TACAN/VOR isn't the end of the world for aircraft...it's about all I ever had and never at sea or at the poles.