So When Is Enough, Enough

Have a friend with a late 80's 60ft Symbol . He has 4 stations with steering, throttles and tranny controls. He is currently having these stations converted to "fly by wire." The installer says when all is said and done the install will be more that the boat is worth.

So I know there are some here on TF add equipment that really won't add value to the boat. The market is the market.

How many of you have added items that really don't make your boat worth anymore?

On my boat, pretty much everything...once a boat gets to a certain state....selling it is a crapshoot for what people will pay or how long you are willing to wait for a true sucker.

Most of my spend is in keeping the boat as close to its original specs as I can.

Of course when a piece of electronics goes bad you will put in the latest, which is arguably better than the original, but it is still an autopilot/chartplotter/radar etc.

I just replaced the swim platform teak. Looks nice but there was teak there before so didn't actually change/improve the boat.

The only thing I added incrementally was the water maker.

I think your friend might be looking at his boat somewhat the same way we do. We are keeping it the way we want to enjoy it - not the way someone will pay more for it!

The way I see it is twofold. There is the fix you do to sell, and the upscaling you do for your own pleasure.
My own satisfaction is far different from $ value.
Same apply to my home, I could have done many things far cheaper but this would have not satisfied me and I would not enjoy it. I do not look at how much I would sell it but how much I will enjoy it.
Maybe not a wise investment but if my intend was to make a wise investment I would not have bought a boat

L

Tom, as a general statement, on an older boat whatever money you throw at it is going to be mostly not recoverable when you sell it or, best case, a small percentage bump. However, a boat with such improvements will probably sell faster than its peers that haven't been so upgraded. This is my opinion, after a repower, genset, paint, interior, electronics and much more.....on an old boat. The value is using the boat with the improvements, not in any possible increase in market value. You don't get the money back.

My thought is if this is what the current owner wants then they should do it. Don’t be concerned w resale but what makes it most comfortable for you. Unlike a house a boat tends not to appreciate.

Lou_tribal said:

The way I see it is twofold. There is the fix you do to sell, and the upscaling you do for your own pleasure.
My own satisfaction is far different from $ value.
Same apply to my home, I could have done many things far cheaper but this would have not satisfied me and I would not enjoy it. I do not look at how much I would sell it but how much I will enjoy it.
Maybe not a wise investment but if my intend was to make a wise investment I would not have bought a boat

L

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In my view (and experience of selling after doing a lot to my boat - most done by myself however), this post sums the situation up well. Using similar example of the house, we recently built new and I paid quite a bit to add 12kW of solar to the roof. It won't add much to the house value, but I enjoy being green, and the fact my power bill, as a result, is always in credit - they pay me money. That I enjoy.

That said, if the 4 control stations are all still working ok, but just mechanical links, rather than electronic, one does wonder about the wisdom, as they won't control the boat any better, so it would seem rather like throwing money away for nought in this particular case.

I think a lot of the above is true.
However I think return on investment would vary tremendously w respect to what the up-grade was. As a good example mechanical things like generators, anchor windlasses, GPS and new rudders will effect the selling value very little.

But repaint the boat, add new carpets, clean and paint the bilges ect ect will raise the value considerably.

And the boat itself will vary the investment return. If you own arun-of-the mill boring boat investment won’t bump the value much. But a boat w a high level of uniqueness coupled w abilities like seaworthyness such as a DeFever investment is of more value.

So there’s a lot of variables that can but big dents into the “you’re throwing your money away” theory. However that is, admittedly the prevailing situation .. usually.

I don’t really care if the improvements I do to the boat gives me a real payback money wise or not. I love working on the boat so that is my payback. It usually helps me sell the boat much faster than not. The last 3 boats I have sold have sold to the first person that looked at them.

The day I bought it I added more than it was worth. I've never added anything that increased it's value as much as the item cost and that's true on every boat I've owned. But then we remodeled our house before we moved in and that added very little to the value. I add things I want and make no decisions thinking of reselling even though I know at some point I will.

BandB said:

The day I bought it I added more than it was worth. I've never added anything that increased it's value as much as the item cost and that's true on every boat I've owned. But then we remodeled our house before we moved in and that added very little to the value. I add things I want and make no decisions thinking of reselling even though I know at some point I will.

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+1.

The biggest waste seems to be new electronic gear that is a generation behind when installed weeks after purchase..

A running takeout from an owner that suffers Bestitis can be a fantastic good deal.


Should anyone be interested in a 1970' Sat Nav (not GPS) let me know!

Waste is how you define it

I consider all money put into the boat a sunk cost (no pun intended) that I will never see again, including the initial purchase price.

Lollygag1 said:

My thought is if this is what the current owner wants then they should do it. Don’t be concerned w resale but what makes it most comfortable for you. Unlike a house a boat tends not to appreciate.

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+1
This is called, 'making the boat yours.' or 'for your own comfort.'
I too try to keep most of the boat as 'from the factory'.
If I do make an 'upgrade', I document the changes for the next owner.

OldDan1943 said:

+1
This is called, 'making the boat yours.' or 'for your own comfort.'
I too try to keep most of the boat as 'from the factory'.
If I do make an 'upgrade', I document the changes for the next owner.

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Similar - I keep the receipts!

Problem is, it could frighten off a potential new owner!

"How many of you have added items that really don't make your boat worth any more?"

I've modified many systems and added/upgraded many components and accessories over the years but not one has been installed to increase value of my boat. On a boat at 43 years of age, I doubt they will add to my boat's value.

I've also abandoned maintaining boat shine...not worrying about resale price but focusing on simplicity and enjoyment of the vessel. I doubt it will much affect for former but it greatly enhances the latter.

Likewise, my upgrades and additions add significantly to my enjoyment, boat safety and ease of operation of the vessel. When it comes time to sell, I'm confident it will sell fast but not likely priced any higher than other 43 year old 34's on the market.

FlyWright said:

"How many of you have added items that really don't make your boat worth any more?"

I've modified many systems and added/upgraded many components and accessories over the years but not one has been installed to increase value of my boat. On a boat at 43 years of age, I doubt they will add to my boat's value.

I've also abandoned maintaining boat shine...not worrying about resale price but focusing on simplicity and enjoyment of the vessel. I doubt it will much affect for former but it greatly enhances the latter.

Likewise, my upgrades and additions add significantly to my enjoyment, boat safety and ease of operation of the vessel. When it comes time to sell, I'm confident it will sell fast but not likely priced any higher than other 43 year old 34's on the market.

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Interesting point. I wonder if you kept the boat as long as you want to then, when you are ready to sell, get a good detailing guy and tell him to bring the coat back to shiny for sale. You may have to pay him twice or more what you might have had to annually, but still have saved a fortune!

menzies said:

Interesting point. I wonder if you kept the boat as long as you want to then, when you are ready to sell, get a good detailing guy and tell him to bring the coat back to shiny for sale. You may have to pay him twice or more what you might have had to annually, but still have saved a fortune!

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If it goes according to plan, that won't be my decision to make. It'll fall upon he who inherits this fine boat!

Fly by wire marine controls -pros and cons- are a major subject by themselves, especially when multiplexed into four areas. As always the quality of the install and the control logics are the key when doing more than simple plug and play many of us are used to.

Badger is our first boat, so we resolved not to buy anything except a larger anchor/rode and a 9.9hp kicker (no tow service around here) for the first year.

This turned out to be a smart choice, because with the help of friendly people here on TF (especially C lectric, who's brother in law used to own Badger and has the kind of brain to remember all manner of small technical details from a boat that wasn't even his) we got to know our boat and even managed to coax some things back to life.

Everything I have ever added to the boat has been worth half of what I paid to add it. It cost me $10,000 to replace the windows on a boat that I sold 4 years later for $60,000. This does not include many other expensive upgrades. I drew the line at a paint job. That would have cost $30,000 and I probably would have gotten only another $5,000 at time of sale.

On the other hand my boat sold in 45 days. Considering the cost of moorage and insurance one could say that I got another $15,000.

In the end I bought the boat for $100,000, spent $100,000 over 15 years and sold it for $60,000 plus saved $15,000 by selling quick so I only threw away $125,000 over 15 years.

Almost everything I have done I do not expect to add value to the boat at resale time.
I enjoy working on the boat, most of the time. I enjoy being able to expect it to start and go when I want it to with minimal fuss.

I have seen to many people ignore their vessels for long periods and then wonder why the thing won't run or costs a bomb to repair and of course delays or ruins the trip.

Repairs and changes are/may be made with some thought behind them for the best bang for the buck but not to raise a selling price.

There's a strong argument to fix it up for YOU and just enjoy it, and the hell with resale. Too many folks go overboard on "what the resale will be if...."
Especially if your gonna keep it for a bit.


Now, a one shot loop trip I could understand being a bit more conservative on improvements, but ya at least want the comforts that makes the trip good.


I could argue that one rarely gets close to 100% back on an improvement, a most likely less than 25%.



They say that "kitchens and baths" will make you money in real estate, and sell faster, and that's generally true. Not so for boats.


I would suspect that fixing and flipping boats would be a real questionable business.



Enjoy it and don't worry about resale.

I do not even consider resale in either my boat or my house upgrades. upgrades are for personal enjoyment.

Make your stuff how you like it, and let the chips fall where they may when you sell.

Seevee said:

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I would suspect that fixing and flipping boats would be a real questionable business.

Enjoy it and don't worry about resale.

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Buy low and sell high. One day I will get that part right, maybe.

I bought my 30 year old boat this year with a plan to do the loop and extended cruising when I retire in 2022. I will have spent equal to what I paid for it while making it mine. This includes all new electronics, new genset, having the boat professionally rewired. new diesel furnace. new reverse cycle, new fridge, new salon windows, installing Jet Thrusters, soda blast and barrier coat the bottom, full service and cosmetic upgrades and on and on I go. It may sound a bit crazy but to me it will be my home and I want it to be done right and be dependable. Truth is I am a bit crazy

Soo-Valley said:

Buy low and sell high. One day I will get that part right, maybe.

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Agreed, but I was told to buy high and sell low.... but make it up in volume.

I enjoy doing the upgrades I've done. They're for my enjoyment. While I don't expect to recover the improvement costs, I would like to think it will make the boat easy to sell, hopefully at the upper end of the range.

Ted

tiltrider1 said:

Everything I have ever added to the boat has been worth half of what I paid to add it. It cost me $10,000 to replace the windows on a boat that I sold 4 years later for $60,000. This does not include many other expensive upgrades. I drew the line at a paint job. That would have cost $30,0000 and I probably would have gotten only another $5,000 at time of sale.

On the other hand my boat sold in 45 days. Considering the cost of moorage and insurance one could say that I got another $15,000.

In the end I bought the boat for $100,000, spent $100,000 over 15 years and sold it for $60,000 plus saved $15,000 by selling quick so I only threw away $125,000 over 15 years.

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I like this breakdown. It then begs the question: Did you get $125k of enjoyment/pleasure out of the boat over that 15 years (or $8333.33 per year of enjoyment)?

Seems like a bargain to me!!

Tom, you've spent a week on Beachcomber so you know what it has and what its capabilities are. Many of the upgrades (electronics, new gauges at both helms, new starter motor, etc.) were paid for by my insurance company. I did put a new Westerbeke genset on (as opposed to rebuilding the old one) and that cost me right at $15K.

I don't really think much has been added to Beachcomber that would increase the value, but they were repairs/upgrades that had to be done to keep the boat usable.