Building a Nordhavn - again

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One of the few things I would change about the N57 is nix the bulbous bow. The article TW links to notes the noise. Granted, a delivery skipper spends too much time going to weather, but still, the 'crack of a bat' every few minutes is disturbing. My take on them is they were a marketing gimmick. Glad they've run their course.

Peter


Apparently altering the shape of the top of the bulb solves (or reduces) the slap. This has been done on the larger Nordhavns.


What's undeniable is that the 50 and 57 are the most efficient Nordhavn hulls. I'm sure lots goes into that, but it's hard to believe the bulb isn't part of it.
 
That's pretty funny because our house in Gloucester was also named "Tanglewood" back when people named houses. That's where we got the boat name.


The 64' and 68' have never had bulbous bows. And except for the 50 and 57, and 62, none of the models below 72' have had them. 72 and up I think they are standard, or at least an option.


Nordhavn has a good discussion about them here https://archive.nordhavn.com/tech/bulbous_bows.php


Thanks for the response!
Yes, now you understand why my jaw kinda dropped open.


Thanks for addressing the Bulbous bow issue, and providing links.
I understand it better now.
They seem to be a lightning rod of opinion for sure.


I've spent many hours looking at Nordhavn boats trying to figure out what I would get, given the choice.
A 68 makes a lot of sense, but as I have 3 adult children, I'd need a 4 cabin layout, plus crew for longer passages, so maybe I'll just have to buy an 86, like Aroha, or have a custom built... :)
 
Thanks for the response!
Yes, now you understand why my jaw kinda dropped open.


Thanks for addressing the Bulbous bow issue, and providing links.
I understand it better now.
They seem to be a lightning rod of opinion for sure.


I've spent many hours looking at Nordhavn boats trying to figure out what I would get, given the choice.
A 68 makes a lot of sense, but as I have 3 adult children, I'd need a 4 cabin layout, plus crew for longer passages, so maybe I'll just have to buy an 86, like Aroha, or have a custom built... :)

Wifey B: Are your adult children unemployed? :rofl: I ask because my question is how often will all be cruising with you? Don't buy for 5% of the time, buy for 95%. I would bet that typically only 1 of them would be aboard at a time for any long cruise. For a night or two, being short a cabin is no big deal as people can sleep anywhere. :)
 
LOL, I get it!


Not going to redirect this thread....:flowers:
But, for a giggle...
They are all employed... normally...

This craziness has them working from home tho..

One of my Kids is in Hospitality, so I told her she is up for Chief Stewardess, her Significant other is a Cook... She asked what the hourly rate was, and I replied "I'm not sure what the hourly rate is the Bahamas is yet...":D

Another is in Finance, so he gets the Purser position, and his wife is an Engineer...
And I worked so HARD to get them OFF the payroll!:facepalm:
 
LOL, I get it!


Not going to redirect this thread....:flowers:
But, for a giggle...
They are all employed... normally...

This craziness has them working from home tho..

One of my Kids is in Hospitality, so I told her she is up for Chief Stewardess, her Significant other is a Cook... She asked what the hourly rate was, and I replied "I'm not sure what the hourly rate is the Bahamas is yet...":D

Another is in Finance, so he gets the Purser position, and his wife is an Engineer...
And I worked so HARD to get them OFF the payroll!:facepalm:

Wifey B: Then you'll need all the cabins and more. :rofl:

Point was that not likely they'll all be cruising with you at the same time very often.

Since they are all high quality, I'd suggest these monthly salaries plus all expenses and benefits.

Chief Stew-$7500
Chef-$8000
Chief Engineer-$11000
Purser-not generally on a personal boat but ok-$9500

Back on the payroll...wasn't that easy. :rofl:
 
Oh THANKS!:facepalm:


LOL.


As I am originally a Brit, I understand the Scania choice, as they are a beast of an engine, and the whole radiated heat discussion was fascinating!


So, another silly question for Twisted Tree...
What Interior/Stateroom layout are you going for?
Its difficult to see on some of the walkthru's videos if the guest cabins have On suites each or a "Jack n Jill" arrangement.

Apologies if you already explained!
 
Thanks for the response!
Yes, now you understand why my jaw kinda dropped open.


Thanks for addressing the Bulbous bow issue, and providing links.
I understand it better now.
They seem to be a lightning rod of opinion for sure.


I've spent many hours looking at Nordhavn boats trying to figure out what I would get, given the choice.
A 68 makes a lot of sense, but as I have 3 adult children, I'd need a 4 cabin layout, plus crew for longer passages, so maybe I'll just have to buy an 86, like Aroha, or have a custom built... :)



Yes, if you must.
 
Oh THANKS!:facepalm:


LOL.


As I am originally a Brit, I understand the Scania choice, as they are a beast of an engine, and the whole radiated heat discussion was fascinating!


So, another silly question for Twisted Tree...
What Interior/Stateroom layout are you going for?
Its difficult to see on some of the walkthru's videos if the guest cabins have On suites each or a "Jack n Jill" arrangement.

Apologies if you already explained!



I don’t know if I did or not, so here goes.

We have a three stateroom layout.

The master is on the main level, though a few steps down from the salon/galley. I believe this is how all the APH 68s are done

Then on the lower level we have the VIP stateroom on the stand side with en suite bath. I think this is also the same on all the APH 68s, at least so far.

The it starts to vary from boat to boat. Most all have a smaller guest stateroom on the port side, usually with two twin size beds. But I have seen at least one with an office in this space. The room size also varies with the ER bulkhead either forward or aft of the stabilizer actuator. It also typically does not have an en-suite head. Ours is smaller with the stabilizer in the ER rather than the Stateroom. And we have an en suite.

Forward on the lower level is another space that I have seen used as another bunk room, a shared head, or a utility/laundry room. Ours is a utility room.

The other big variation is the PH level. Many have a jump bed behind the settee, and a day head. Others have created a captain’s cabin with head. We did a variation on the jump bed and head, placing the head behind the settee, and the jump bed on it’s own in the port aft corner. This makes it much easier to access the storage space below the settee, and below the jump bed.
 
At some point I believe you indicated N was behind schedule, then indicated later that things were progressing quickly. At this stage, when do you expect your boat to arrive in North America?
 
At some point I believe you indicated N was behind schedule, then indicated later that things were progressing quickly. At this stage, when do you expect your boat to arrive in North America?


Right, there were some issue at the yard causing slow progress, but that has been resolved and they are hopping along right on schedule now. Launch in Taiwan is expected in October, but is also dependent on having a booking on a transport ship. The boat launches, sea trials, then goes directly to get loaded on the ship, so they won't launch until about 2 weeks ahead of shipment. I then expect to see the boat in Florida (where we are commissioning) some time in December.
 
GoldKey asked about the layout, and a drawing will surely describe it better than me. Attached is the GA (general arrangement) of the boat. There have been a few subsequent changes, but this is pretty close.
 

Attachments

  • 6837 GA REV 8-pch.pdf
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GoldKey asked about the layout, and a drawing will surely describe it better than me. Attached is the GA (general arrangement) of the boat. There have been a few subsequent changes, but this is pretty close.


Absolutely Impressive, Twistedtree!
 
Awesome, Thankyou!


Very interesting. Maybe my lack of experience/Knowledge, but not seen that Pilothouse layout before.
If I read the drawing correctly, the Pilot House has a "Watch Bunk", and a head but no shower?
The one thing that I know, is that you guys have had Tanglewood and put a lot of water under that keel to know what worked, and what you want for this boat.


What an amazing experience, and one that I hope and dream I get the chance to replicate...
In the interim, I am living vicariously thru you!
 
Awesome, Thankyou!


Very interesting. Maybe my lack of experience/Knowledge, but not seen that Pilothouse layout before.
If I read the drawing correctly, the Pilot House has a "Watch Bunk", and a head but no shower?
The one thing that I know, is that you guys have had Tanglewood and put a lot of water under that keel to know what worked, and what you want for this boat.


What an amazing experience, and one that I hope and dream I get the chance to replicate...
In the interim, I am living vicariously thru you!


I think our pilot house layout is a first. I think all others are a day head + desk in t port aft corner and a jump bed behind the settee, or a captain's cabin with a more complete 3/4 bath. The layout details vary a lot for the captain's cabin & head, but all provide the same two things.


The pilot house is where everyone hangs out when you are underway, so we wanted to make it as spacious as possible. No matter how we sliced it, we couldn't fit a cabin without unduly compromising the pilot house hang-out space, no we nixed the cabin. Then it came down to optimizing the space while keeping a day head and a jump bed. By swapping the location of the two (head aft of the settee, and jump bed in the port aft corner) from their more common locations, the jump bad became much easier to get in and out of, the space below the jump bed became easier to access, and the space below the settee became easier to access. Plus we got almost complete 360 deg visibility. It was a win-win all around.
 
Makes sense.
One of my fav videos on Youtube the the "Ivanhoe" N76 story of Tookie(Sp), and the shakedown voyage with his kids and grand kids.
The scene that warms my heart when they are all in the pilothouse, watching the progress.
That's my dream of perfection, and where I'd be, even if I was not piloting the boat.


Unless I am mistaken, it looks like when the N68 is ordered with the APH, the Galley is on the starboard side. With the FPH, it seems to be on the Port side.
I understand that the is no difference in size, but the Starboard side galley, always looks bigger than the port side galley.:confused:


I am also intrigued to know if the APH is 'much" nice riding that the FPH?
 
so when is the expected delivery date?


She launches in about 12 hrs in Taiwan, and will undergo a couple weeks testing, sea trials, and fixing of any issues. ETA Seattle is December 14. I can't wait.
 
Are you still in Taiwan? How was/is the visit?
 
Amazing vessel. Congratulations. Having done a new build know how many decisions are involved and the amount of work on the part of the owners. Wondering how was your experience? There’s a persistent internet rant from an individual who was most displeased by his Nordhavn build experience and aftercare to resolve the issues. Did you have any bumps in the road so far?
 
Are you still in Taiwan? How was/is the visit?


No, the trip fell through about an hour before boarding the plane. It was quite the saga that I'm glad is over and done.


My focus had instead been on "remote" inspections via Skype, photos, and email. We have found and fixed a number of things which is of course the goal. I'm cautiously optimistic that it will be 80%-90% as effective as being there. The measure will be how many issues creep through that I would have caught in person. But at the moment I'm feeling pretty good about it.


My real focus has been on things that are much better fixed by the yard crew vs little things that are easy to correct in Seattle. For example, we asked for pictures of the dinette and pilot house tables (they were packed away for transport and final install in commissioning). They were high gloss finish rather than satin as requested. 24 hrs later they were fixed, and perfectly match the rest of the woodwork. I also spotted several pumps that were hard mounted, but supposed to be on rubber isolation mounts. Depending on how much slack there is with hoses, that can be an easy fix, or a total PIA. Better to have the yard do it.
 
Amazing vessel. Congratulations. Having done a new build know how many decisions are involved and the amount of work on the part of the owners. Wondering how was your experience? There’s a persistent internet rant from an individual who was most displeased by his Nordhavn build experience and aftercare to resolve the issues. Did you have any bumps in the road so far?


Yes, Cantoni is bitter and vengeful. It's really unbecoming. He was the ultimate buyer of the 120 (the original buyer bailed out when 2008 hit), and it turned into a big fight between PAE and him. A big element in the whole thing is that he got nailed by the Canadian tax authorities who demanded tax on the boat. His claim against PAE was that he never "accepted" the boat, and hence never took ownership, which conveniently would solve his tax problem. It ended up in court and the judge/jury found in PAE's favor on everything. But Cantoni continues to poke PAE at every opportunity.


Anyway, I think success building a boat with PAE (and probably others) is all about your attitude. If you can be collaborative, it works quite well. If you stand around a yell, it doesn't work so well. But I have never found yelling to be an effective management technique in any field.


The boats are all hand built from logs, barrels of resin, and blocks of stainless steel, and every boat is different. So it's not like ordering a car, and rather more like building a custom home, except much harder because you are also building all the city infrastructure to support the home.


I enjoy the process, but it's a lot of work, but mostly because I want stuff done a particular way. I know lots of people who basically fill out the order, then pick up the boat when it's done. That works fine, but you get things the way the yard wants to build it, not the way you might want.



Where things get into trouble is when a buyer thinks they are buying a car and that they will take the keys and run off across the ocean. That kind of predictability and reliability only comes when you build the same thing, over and over again, perfecting it with each iteration. But that's counter to the definition of a semi-custom boat. You need to shake it out for a while before it becomes a rock solid, reliable boat.
 
Sounds like time well spent. The 2 week quarantine may have been less-than-productive.

I hope your timeline stays on track, and the commissioning can reach full-speed after the holidays.

What are your near-term (6 months or so) plans with the boat after delivery?
 
Sounds like time well spent. The 2 week quarantine may have been less-than-productive.

I hope your timeline stays on track, and the commissioning can reach full-speed after the holidays.

What are your near-term (6 months or so) plans with the boat after delivery?


Our cruising plans are Alaska, and BC whenever it opens. But I expect that will be a long time still with 135,000 new Covid cases yesterday in the US. My hope is that by fall things will have improved enough to be welcome back.


Once the world has reliably reopened, then we will assess our next destination. Until a couple of months ago the plan was to commission in Florida and work our way to Europe. But that's not happening, and we don't want to be stuck cruising the eastern US. We'd much rather cruise Alaska if we are confined to the US, so we switched to Seattle.
 
We had literally hundreds of emails and multiple back and forth with the builder. Of interest many of the things we asked for were incorporated in subsequent boats as base not options. Think people who don’t have that level of involvement miss out. Beyond issues of money it’s never really their boat and they never get the level of “dinghy factor” you will have. “That’s my boat and she was done just the way I wanted”. Have too much fun. Hope to cross paths and have a gam.
 
Yes, Cantoni is bitter and vengeful. It's really unbecoming. He was the ultimate buyer of the 120 (the original buyer bailed out when 2008 hit), and it turned into a big fight between PAE and him. A big element in the whole thing is that he got nailed by the Canadian tax authorities who demanded tax on the boat. His claim against PAE was that he never "accepted" the boat, and hence never took ownership, which conveniently would solve his tax problem. It ended up in court and the judge/jury found in PAE's favor on everything. But Cantoni continues to poke PAE at every opportunity.


Anyway, I think success building a boat with PAE (and probably others) is all about your attitude. If you can be collaborative, it works quite well. If you stand around a yell, it doesn't work so well. But I have never found yelling to be an effective management technique in any field.


The boats are all hand built from logs, barrels of resin, and blocks of stainless steel, and every boat is different. So it's not like ordering a car, and rather more like building a custom home, except much harder because you are also building all the city infrastructure to support the home.


I enjoy the process, but it's a lot of work, but mostly because I want stuff done a particular way. I know lots of people who basically fill out the order, then pick up the boat when it's done. That works fine, but you get things the way the yard wants to build it, not the way you might want.



Where things get into trouble is when a buyer thinks they are buying a car and that they will take the keys and run off across the ocean. That kind of predictability and reliability only comes when you build the same thing, over and over again, perfecting it with each iteration. But that's counter to the definition of a semi-custom boat. You need to shake it out for a while before it becomes a rock solid, reliable boat.

I think anyone considering a Nordhavn should read threads like yours. PAE did make mistakes with Cantoni but they won the suit and that tells you something about his case. He had built Nordhavn's before. One of the frequent references in his contract was "Like Westport." If I walked into Westport and said I wanted them to build like Nordhavn, they're throw me out and I mean that literally. The more Cantoni rants, the more I want to come to Nordhavn's side and ignore anything wrong they did.

Each builder has their way of working. I'd be totally a wreck by the delays you've encountered, but I absolutely know that is to be expected on a Nordhavn. I'd have to let someone else handle it for me. Nordhavn and Westport are both technically semi-custom as the hulls are standard models. However, in real spirit, Westport is a Production Yacht and Nordhavn more a custom Trawler. You select every piece of equipment on a Nordhavn. You move things around. You design along the way, not all in advance.

I offer these observations not as criticism of Nordhavn, but facts of a build. Incidentally, I know someone taking delivery of a Hatteras in December, 15 months late. I consider Hatteras a great company but dealing with their scheduling would really annoy me.

With Nordhavn you won't end up with a production boat. It will look like others but it will be very different inside. This boat will be your boat, your design, your preferences, your boat. Building another way you would be robbed of a lot of what you enjoy, your personal involvement in design, and your involvement in commissioning. You get real pleasure out of building. I build to get an end product. I'm getting a boat built right now but I have people there who work for me, rather than myself. We selected all arrangements and all interior details up front and that was our participation.

I'm reminded of N4061 building his Helmsman. Omg, if I was the builder, he would have driven me crazy with all his changes. However, it all made sense as he'd previously built Nordhavn's and was doing it similarly.

To everyone, know your builder and accept their methods of doing business, both strengths and weaknesses. They aren't going to change just for you. The vast majority of people who build Nordhavn's are very happy with them. They're pretty much an open book. They meet requirements like being a stable company and one with proven quantity. If they're late you shouldn't be surprised or angry. Just work to get them as soon as you can.

It reminds me a bit of people who get married and their spouse is exactly as they were when dating and they don't like it. You fell in love with them, married them for who they were, and divorce them for remaining who they are.

Know your builder and know yourself. I think you'll end up with an incredible boat and be very happy.
 

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