*Blue Water* Bahama cruising?

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BrianG

BrianG

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I think of Blue Water cruising as way they hell out there. Like Oceanic, or at least a few hundred miles out. Minimum. Lately I've seen some posts describing Bahama cruising as "Blue Water". Bahamas are 50 miles off Florida. Why is it considered Blue Water cruising?
 
BrianG said:
I think of Blue Water cruising as way they hell out there. Like Oceanic, or at least a few hundred miles out. Minimum. Lately I've seen some posts describing Bahama cruising as "Blue Water". Bahamas are 50 miles off Florida. Why is it considered Blue Water cruising?
Click to expand...


Because the water is blue? I'd say it's a miss-use of the term. But heck, lots of people use words and terms incorrectly.
 
Oh, like "Trawler" ...... people use terms as they either understand them or heard them and are repeating, etc....

I could go with blue water for the Bahamas....not "ocean voyaging". The boat needed to get to the Bahamas doesn't have to be "bluewater" but having one makes the trip a lot easier in some respects
 
Of course if you catch the Gulf Stream on an off day that 50 miles will feel like 500.
 
There's a definitional gap in the categorization of cruising. Call it blue water or call it passagemaking, the implication is you're outside the horizon of reliable weather forecasts and you are left to deal with whatever cards you're dealt from the weather gods. For Bahamas bound cruisers, crossing the Stream contrasts sharply with the normal decision tree of running the ICW or going outside for the day to the next destination. I agree - "Blue Water" is a stretch for me too, but that's fine. People can call it whatever they want

I personally like the term "Coastal Passagemaking" to denote longer runs within a fairly reliable 3 day weather window. I suppose you can run from Maine to Alaska like this and mostly remain within about 400 nms of a safe harbor if needed. It does require decent understanding of weather.

Peter
 
Cruising the Bahamas and simply crossing to Bimini 50 miles from Florida are 2 different animals .

While yes not truly "Bluewater", it ain't the ditch either.

I think most Bahamas cruisers prepare differently when planning a Bahamas cruise than they do for a coastal run for various reasons, some matching Bluewater reasons.

Many will leave the Bahamas just like altering direction on a voyage because of storms, even shift island sides for cold fronts....some of which were storm force winds in poor heavy weather anchorages.
 
Cruising the Bahamas can be both inshore (e.g. Sea of Abaco), off shore (crossing, running from Lucaya to the Berry's, New Providence, then Exuma), and Blue Water running to some of the Islands in the Far Bahamas and Caribbean.

The point made was good, if you get caught in the Stream or Exuma Sound in unexpected weather you will be very glad to be in a "Blue Water Capable" boat, based on most definitions.
 
I have heard how it’s not uncommon to take a center console to the Bahamas so getting there isn’t necessarily “bluewater” in the sense many mean. However, one definition I read described bluewater cruising as where one is subject to the vagaries of unanticipated weather and that self reliance is a prerequisite. There are some who have no mechanical, electrical or electronics skills nor an desire to acquire any and I’d never get on a boat with anyone who professes that attitude.

Under this definition, it’s not precisely how many miles out one is but rather, if something goes wrong do you have the ability to address the problem because SeaTow isn’t going to come save your sorry ass? You are on your own, can’t duck out of bad weather or “beat the storm home” or limp back to your slip. And there are places in the Bahamas and even more so in the T&C where one needs to be self reliant.
 
I guess it depends where you leave from. If you go to/from Beaufort NC or Norfolk VA then I'd call it a Blue Water passage.
 
Like to think about this using the membership requirements for the OCC( Ocean Cruising Club). They require a passage of open water passage of at least 1500nm across a sea or ocean with no land falls. That implies-
Greater than 5 day passage so longer than you can receive a meaningful reliable weather forecast when leaving. Hence the need to be prepared for at least force 8 and a way to receive weather routing data while on passage.
It also implies a total belt and suspenders approach to all key systems including propulsion, fresh water, food, hygiene, electricity sleep as well as navigation and communications. (SSB, satphone, personal/ship AIS/epirbs etc.)
It implies having sufficient fuel, water, filters, spares, food to allow passage to take at least one third longer than expected.
It implies having the skill set, materials and tools for the vessel to remain functional without outside support.
It implies the vessel will be outside SAR rescue for the majority of the transit. In other words outside 200nm as most SARS helicopters are 400nm (200nm out and 200nm back even with a brief time on station). So if you call you will have either fixed it, are dead or in a raft by the time they show up.
It implies you are off any continental shelf for the majority of the time. Waves break either from extreme height, conflicting wave trains or ground effects. Given only 1/7th to 1/8th is above sea level once off the shelf ground effects which are the major cause of breaking waves coastally are no longer operating. Conflicting wave trains and wind against water is much less likely as well. Major exceptions like the Gulf Stream or intra island rages exist but are local and predictable.

Trips from Florida to any part of the island chain (Bahamas to Trinidad) are not blue water.
Not off a shelf for any measurable significant time.
No transit greater than 5 days.
Not outside SAR range.
Have access to outside support.
Minimal communication issues.

Often coastal weather is more problematic than open ocean. Simple things like setting a drogue or sea anchor or lying a hull or hoved to are often not a viable option when coastal. But the entire thought process of blue water v coastal prep and execution is different. Both can be done safely or not. Both can kill you. But they are different.
 
I would consider Bermuda to be Blue Water.

I would NOT consider Bahamas to be Blue Water.

JMHO
 
There is defenitely some blue water elements to Bahama cruising for ex: IMHO You do not want to tow a dinghy across the gulf stream or in the North east channel. There is no american coast gaurd or sea tow. You need to carry several extra days of provisions, fuel and water because some islands do not get the supply barge when they are suppose to. They will occasionally skip islands or break down. I have gotten to the Berries Islands before and had to wait three days for the fuel barge and then one day they make you wait for everything in the tank to settle before they will start pumping it.

Bud
 
Bud said:
There is defenitely some blue water elements to Bahama cruising for ex: IMHO You do not want to tow a dinghy across the gulf stream or in the North east channel. There is no american coast gaurd or sea tow. You need to carry several extra days of provisions, fuel and water because some islands do not get the supply barge when they are suppose to. They will occasionally skip islands or break down. I have gotten to the Berries Islands before and had to wait three days for the fuel barge and then one day they make you wait for everything in the tank to settle before they will start pumping it.

Bud
Click to expand...

What is the skinny on the Gulf Stream? (short version)
 
Hippocampus said:
Like to think about this using the membership requirements for the OCC( Ocean Cruising Club). They require a passage of open water passage of at least 1500nm across a sea or ocean with no land falls. That implies-
Greater than 5 day passage so longer than you can receive a meaningful reliable weather forecast when leaving. Hence the need to be prepared for at least force 8 and a way to receive weather routing data while on passage.
It also implies a total belt and suspenders approach to all key systems including propulsion, fresh water, food, hygiene, electricity sleep as well as navigation and communications. (SSB, satphone, personal/ship AIS/epirbs etc.)
It implies having sufficient fuel, water, filters, spares, food to allow passage to take at least one third longer than expected.
It implies having the skill set, materials and tools for the vessel to remain functional without outside support.
It implies the vessel will be outside SAR rescue for the majority of the transit. In other words outside 200nm as most SARS helicopters are 400nm (200nm out and 200nm back even with a brief time on station). So if you call you will have either fixed it, are dead or in a raft by the time they show up.
It implies you are off any continental shelf for the majority of the time. Waves break either from extreme height, conflicting wave trains or ground effects. Given only 1/7th to 1/8th is above sea level once off the shelf ground effects which are the major cause of breaking waves coastally are no longer operating. Conflicting wave trains and wind against water is much less likely as well. Major exceptions like the Gulf Stream or intra island rages exist but are local and predictable.

Trips from Florida to any part of the island chain (Bahamas to Trinidad) are not blue water.
Not off a shelf for any measurable significant time.
No transit greater than 5 days.
Not outside SAR range.
Have access to outside support.
Minimal communication issues.

Often coastal weather is more problematic than open ocean. Simple things like setting a drogue or sea anchor or lying a hull or hoved to are often not a viable option when coastal. But the entire thought process of blue water v coastal prep and execution is different. Both can be done safely or not. Both can kill you. But they are different.
Click to expand...

Your first premise of membership of the OCC defines blue water needs to be proven before the rest of your post is valid.
 
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Ok used that as an example. Feel free to dismiss that. Rather use the body of the post.

Greater than 5 day passage so longer than you can receive a meaningful reliable weather forecast when leaving. Hence the need to be prepared for at least force 8 and a way to receive weather routing data while on passage.
It also implies a total belt and suspenders approach to all key systems including propulsion, fresh water, food, hygiene, electricity sleep as well as navigation and communications. (SSB, satphone, personal/ship AIS/epirbs etc.)
It implies having sufficient fuel, water, filters, spares, food to allow passage to take at least one third longer than expected.
It implies having the skill set, materials and tools for the vessel to remain functional without outside support.
It implies the vessel will be outside SAR rescue for the majority of the transit. In other words outside 200nm as most SARS helicopters are 400nm (200nm out and 200nm back even with a brief time on station). So if you call you will have either fixed it, are dead or in a raft by the time they show up.
It implies you are off any continental shelf for the majority of the time. Waves break either from extreme height, conflicting wave trains or ground effects. Given only 1/7th to 1/8th is above sea level once off the shelf ground effects which are the major cause of breaking waves coastally are no longer operating. Conflicting wave trains and wind against water is much less likely as well. Major exceptions like the Gulf Stream or intra island rages exist but are local and predictable.

Or please offer an alternative to discuss. My focus was on how you prep. What boats are suitable. What you can expect. Personally thing blue water is more difficult and dangerous. Personally don’t think that’s true. Rather think it’s two different experiences requiring different skill sets and approaches. Personally think in many respects think coastal is more demanding.
 
Greetings,
Mr. BG. If I may regarding the Gulf Stream (GS): Do NOT go anywhere near the GS if the wind has ANY north vector in it!!!! If you've had a "north" blow of any strength or any extended period of time, you may have to wait (days) for the seas to calm down.
Other than that, depending on where you leave from the east coast, you will either be able to use the GS to shorten your passage OR run against it and lengthen your crossing.
 
BrianG said:
What is the skinny on the Gulf Stream? (short version)
Click to expand...

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/gulfstreamspeed.html

For the crossing from West Palm to West End Grand Bahama I would guesstimate that you are in the main part of the Stream for about 40nm (total crossing 56nm. Since it pushed North anywhere from 3-5 knots you need to use offsets or good electronic plotting to run a plumb line.

The issue mentioned is when you have a northerly pushing against this flow, it can get very steep, very confused, very quickly.

Some eegits (me) have tried to beat a front to get across with very unpleasant results.

However, for me, the most dangerous time is when folks who have a schedule to meet (e.g. back to work, a wedding) decide not to leave the boat there and fly back, but pound on.

When I was working we used to go for two weeks. Looking back we were so lucky in that the weather always cooperated with our crossings. Though we always went during the school holidays in July. The winds consistently start to blow from the south beginning in June so the chances of good crossings are better anyway.
 
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Hippocampus said:
Ok used that as an example. Feel free to dismiss that. Rather use the body of the post.

Greater than 5 day passage so longer than you can receive a meaningful reliable weather forecast when leaving. Hence the need to be prepared for at least force 8 and a way to receive weather routing data while on passage.
It also implies a total belt and suspenders approach to all key systems including propulsion, fresh water, food, hygiene, electricity sleep as well as navigation and communications. (SSB, satphone, personal/ship AIS/epirbs etc.)
It implies having sufficient fuel, water, filters, spares, food to allow passage to take at least one third longer than expected.
It implies having the skill set, materials and tools for the vessel to remain functional without outside support.
It implies the vessel will be outside SAR rescue for the majority of the transit. In other words outside 200nm as most SARS helicopters are 400nm (200nm out and 200nm back even with a brief time on station). So if you call you will have either fixed it, are dead or in a raft by the time they show up.
It implies you are off any continental shelf for the majority of the time. Waves break either from extreme height, conflicting wave trains or ground effects. Given only 1/7th to 1/8th is above sea level once off the shelf ground effects which are the major cause of breaking waves coastally are no longer operating. Conflicting wave trains and wind against water is much less likely as well. Major exceptions like the Gulf Stream or intra island rages exist but are local and predictable.

Or please offer an alternative to discuss. My focus was on how you prep. What boats are suitable. What you can expect. Personally thing blue water is more difficult and dangerous. Personally don’t think that’s true. Rather think it’s two different experiences requiring different skill sets and approaches. Personally think in many respects think coastal is more demanding.
Click to expand...
Thanks hippo. I agree with the gist of your premise re: Blue Water. You are far from help and have limited insight into weather so must endure the consequences.

Bahamas is a great milestone trip for many, and it can be difficult. And reprovisioning can be inconvenient. But that does not make it Blue Water. Just makes it a step up in coastal cruising.

My opinion, of course.

Peter
 
Let me give you this thought.

Ever hear someone point to a sailboat and say - "that's a blue water boat!"

In my sailing days it was a well found boat with a full keel. For example a Hinkley.

So for me, it isn't the remoteness of the environment, and how far away you are from help. It's how the boat can handle what is thrown at it.

That could be 30 miles off Hatteras. 130 miles east of Bermuda, 30 miles off West Palm, running down the West Indies, or even crossing the Great Lakes.

Blue water to me is a definition of a vessels ability to handle seas - no matter where you may find them.

A blue water boat could run into mechanical, or rigging trouble five miles off Jacksonville and Sea Tow could be there in half an hour to tow it in - it is still a blue water vessel - with issues once fixed!
 
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BrianG said:
I think of Blue Water cruising as way they hell out there. Like Oceanic, or at least a few hundred miles out. Minimum. Lately I've seen some posts describing Bahama cruising as "Blue Water". Bahamas are 50 miles off Florida. Why is it considered Blue Water cruising?
Click to expand...

Here you go, crossing from Fort Pierce trying to make the Bahama Bank before a front came in late afternoon - it came in at 11am!

Stabilizers are on!

Water looks pretty blue!

 
The elements of maritime geography are loosely defined and their meanings have changed throughout history. The USA's 2010 Naval Operations Concept defines blue water as "the open ocean", green water as "coastal waters, ports and harbors", and brown water as "navigable rivers and their estuaries"

More than 12 nm off shore, I'd say it's open. The area between Florida and the Bahamas will allow you to go north or south for thousands of miles.

I've been disturbed by the use of "Blue Water" as there's clearly no consensus. Even worse is talking about a "Blue Water Boat." Someone mentioned a center console to the Bahamas. Well, there are some center consoles I'd rather cross in than some boats often termed as trawlers.

Is Key West to Cancun Blue Water? What about a direct run from Tampa to Galveston? One definition will refer to blue water as a term describing the deep ocean waters and they are certainly deep between Florida and the Bahamas. Some military terms have talked about green water being area that can be attacked from land and anything beyond that being blue. Saturday was rather blue water if you take it to the roughness of the seas and November 2 and 3, we're supposed to have 10' and 11' seas at short intervals between Florida and the Bahamas.

I generally equate "blue water" with "off shore" and with being outside the 12 mile limit. Others equate it with seas. Others with long range cruising. Bimini was mentioned above but most regular Florida cruisers don't even think of Bimini when talking about crossing to the Bahamas.

It's going to always be subjective unless you define it by distance from land.
 
BandB said:
The elements of maritime geography are loosely defined and their meanings have changed throughout history. The USA's 2010 Naval Operations Concept defines blue water as "the open ocean", green water as "coastal waters, ports and harbors", and brown water as "navigable rivers and their estuaries"

More than 12 nm off shore, I'd say it's open. The area between Florida and the Bahamas will allow you to go north or south for thousands of miles.

I've been disturbed by the use of "Blue Water" as there's clearly no consensus. Even worse is talking about a "Blue Water Boat." Someone mentioned a center console to the Bahamas. Well, there are some center consoles I'd rather cross in than some boats often termed as trawlers.

Is Key West to Cancun Blue Water? What about a direct run from Tampa to Galveston? One definition will refer to blue water as a term describing the deep ocean waters and they are certainly deep between Florida and the Bahamas. Some military terms have talked about green water being area that can be attacked from land and anything beyond that being blue. Saturday was rather blue water if you take it to the roughness of the seas and November 2 and 3, we're supposed to have 10' and 11' seas at short intervals between Florida and the Bahamas.

I generally equate "blue water" with "off shore" and with being outside the 12 mile limit. Others equate it with seas. Others with long range cruising. Bimini was mentioned above but most regular Florida cruisers don't even think of Bimini when talking about crossing to the Bahamas.

It's going to always be subjective unless you define it by distance from land.
Click to expand...

Perhaps there are no blue water boats, only blue water sailors. After reading Shackleton's book, one might arrive at that conclusion.
 
As an aside NAs have done excellent work in the last three decades. Few still hold to the opinion that the best blue water sailboats are full keel heavy displacement boats. I’ve done several Bermuda races on Hinckleys.BTW the Hinckley Bermuda 40 wasn’t a full keel boat. It’s a keel centerboarder and a very wet ride. Their current Bermuda 50 is a carbon fiber rocket with twin balanced spade rudders and offered with a lifting keel. Unlike the huge number of miles covered in current transoceanic and round the world racing safely when a round the world race was recently organized using the “traditional “ full keeled boat of yore the majority dropped out or had major failures. There is no full keeled blue water sail boat in current series production. There’s a reason.
Since Captain Beebe there’s been multiple excellent blue water recreational trawlers plying the seas. Some have circumnavigated. All these designs have done remarkable safe blue water passages. Current thinking builds on the work of Dashew and others so they are no longer just full displacement trawlers. As with any marine endeavor it’s not only the boat. Equally or even more important is the crew.
 
menzies said:
.

So for me, it isn't the remoteness of the environment, and how far away you are from help. It's how the boat can handle what is thrown at it.

That could be 30 miles off Hatteras. 130 miles east of Bermuda, 30 miles off West Palm, running down the West Indies, or even crossing the Great Lakes.

Blue water to me is a definition of a vessels ability to handle seas - no matter where you may find them.
Click to expand...

This is blue water. It has nothing to do with the distance travelled.
 
Hippocampus said:
when a round the world race was recently organized using the “traditional “ full keeled boat of yore the majority dropped out or had major failures. There is no full keeled blue water sail boat in current series production. There’s a reason.
Click to expand...

Yep, the reason is speed.

In fact I would argue that speed is the anthesis of safety.
 
menzies said:
Yep, the reason is speed.

In fact I would argue that speed is the anthesis of safety.
Click to expand...
You would get a very strong and well considered argument with this from Steve Dashew and others who believe speed is safe as it provides options.

Tampa to Galveston or Key West to Cancun are not blue water transits in the vernacular sense of the term. Not to diminish the accomplishment - either take a lot of planning and preparation. But they pale in comparison with prep required to safely and predictably cross an ocean, the definition of Blue Water.

Just because a boat is designed for blue water does not mean that any passage it takes is a blue water passage. Likewise, just because a boat manages to cross an ocean (a 15 foot West Wight Potter for example) does not mean it's a blue water boat. Several years ago, a GB42 crossed from California to Hawaii, an undeniably blue water passage. Few would argue the GB42 is a blue water boat. In fact, the lesson learned for this passage is that if you're patient and wait for seasonal weather , you can increase your odds of success. Which is the case in crossing to the Bahamas.

Peter
 
menzies said:
Yep, the reason is speed.

In fact I would argue that speed is the anthesis of safety.
Click to expand...


Very true. The ability to make contact with floating debris and not do damage.

Bud
 
Bud the statistics and experience say exactly the opposite. Simply put your statement is untrue.

When voyaging we do everything we can without stressing the boat to maximize VMG. Speed means:
Shorter passage. Less time exposed to potential weather. Less time for injury or illness to occur. Less time for food or water to run out.
Speed means:
More ability to avoid weather. Shorter interval to get help if outside help is needed. Less likely that mission fatigue will set in leading to human errors. Less likely that human interactions will deteriorate causing human errors or degraded performance.
The business of hitting lost containers or other debris is way overblown. In both sail and power with the boats you’re talking about it would make little or no difference in outcome if you struck something. And the the likelihood of that occurring is most remote.
 
Peter I really like your post # 27. You’ve obviously have done the planning and execution of blue water passages. From experience of my own and sharing that of my colleagues it’s quite obvious what blue water passage making means. It’s like pornography. You know it when you see it. Your whole approach is different.
Continue to believe coastal is every bit as dangerous as blue water. All this discussion about coastal v blue water conditions isn’t germane. It’s about endurance and self sufficiency as well as expectations. You take a newbie along and universally they’re amazed who different things are off the shelf.
 
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