The Art Of Anchoring

Peter did you mean sarca or Excel in post #118?

Nomad Willy said:

Peter did you mean sarca or Excel in post #118?

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Good clarification. I think he tested both. Excel did better. But it's from memory.

Panope does a good job on anchor tests. Yea, I know. There are always people who. Figure out a reason not to believe any particular test, but given he's been doing so many for so long, I trust his overall judgment. At least in the absence of anything more authoritative.

Peter.

As stated by MVWeebles/Peter, setting into weeds and grass which is often the norm in the 1000 Islands merits a different technique. Rather than drop and set as when in sand or the like, we drop, let out scope, and ignore for 15-20 minutes. Let the anchor wiggle and settle through to the bottom for a while, then give it a pull to assure it is set for the night. In any depth of water 20 feet and less we are letting out 80 feet of chain regardless, with a snubber let out to the waters surface.

I don't have a lot of experience in weedy anchorages since I put the Vulcan on the boat, but so far, it seems to basically just ignore the weeds. Mind you, I haven't tried it in kelp mats. But in just tall, dense weeds, at least for my 73lb version, it seems to do just fine sinking / cutting through them and setting into the substrate below without having to sit around and wait.

I do trust the tests for what they are, just not anyone's interpretation of the results...just like any other anchor test.

While some things are pretty obvious and may draw a consensus, but not everything......

Mike Negley said:

Some time ago after a serious hurricane many boats were lost due to the breaking of nylon anchor rodes where anti-chafing gear was used. One of the major rope manufactures did research on this and determined the chafing gear caused excess heat from the stretching back and forth of the nylon rode inside the chafing gear. Often boat owners were using rubber or plastic hose which did not allow ventilation.

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Yes, you absolutely want chaffing gear that will allow water through it to cool the line, not hose.

Mike Negley said:

Some time ago after a serious hurricane many boats were lost due to the breaking of nylon anchor rodes where anti-chafing gear was used. One of the major rope manufactures did research on this and determined the chafing gear caused excess heat from the stretching back and forth of the nylon rode inside the chafing gear. Often boat owners were using rubber or plastic hose which did not allow ventilation.

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IIRC, I think it was an MIT study. I bet I have it downloaded somewhere.

mvweebles said:

Panope does a good job on anchor tears. Yea, I know. There are always people who. Figure out a reason not to believe any particular test, but given he's been doing so many for so long, I trust his overall judgment. At least in the absence of anything more authoritative.

Peter.

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From a different point of view:
If the tests don't mimic the conditions you will anchor in, how useful will they be to you? A while back, Fortress did anchor testing with the parameters to make their anchor look good, soft Chesapeake bay mud. If your anchor is mostly in the weeds or hard pact bottom, the results from that test will be almost worthless (certainly not going to give you the best anchor for weeds and hard pact bottom). If you're anchoring is less than 25' and you generally scope 7:1, a short scope test at an abnormally high speed is also likely of little value.

Ted

Part of the problem is every anchor manufacturer has some sort of credible test that proclaims their anchor the best. 15+ years ago West Marine and Practical Sailor both did independent tests, but they were of limited value because the conditions were narrow - usually a beach with a center console with twin OBs pulling.

Which is why I like Panope. He has done hundreds of tests and is his own biggest critic. He found a cobble seabed because he came to realize his conditions were too narrow.

Ted, to your point, no anchor is perfect for all conditions. My question to you is how do you know what the seabed is until you test it? How do you know your anchor will set until you back-down on it? Trust a chart or Active Captain reviews? Only anchor in the same locations, knowing the Chesapeake is all mud therefore all is good?

Without backing down, how do you know what the bottom is, and that your anchor is the right choice?

Peter

Anchoring here is simple with seabed of heavy, sticky mud.

In general, tests like short scope and fast reversals and such will show worse performance than longer scope, slower reversals, etc. So it's like seeing the worst case and knowing that you'll typically be able to achieve better in the real world.

markpierce said:

Anchoring here is simple with seabed of heavy, sticky mud.

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As it is here, except for the one time near a waterfall where I could feel the anchor skipping along the bottom. You just never know...

This time what I noticed was that many of the anchors in the cobble stone seafloor had a very difficult time standing up w the fluke/flukes horizontal. This is why I think so many had trouble setting. Their flukes were oriented sideways.

And related to that the anchor that I thought may dig down on one fluke and stick the other one straight up ran much more horizontal than so many others. It’s like predicting the weather.
And perhaps this is one of the reasons the SARCA sets so well as it stood up more than most all the others. Also related to sideways dynamics I predicted that Claw anchors probably not rotate much of the time and hold boats overnight w only one fluke having good penetration. That’s exactly what it did. Often we see that on beach pulls too.


I thought often that you’re old Port Townsend site was far too easy for the anchors.
One of the several reasons I didn’t make it over there thinking I’d just be duping what Steve did. But the way he did it is monumentally supreme.
Sure glad you’re at it still Steve.

We find a suitable anchoring location, check water depth and use hand signals from the person on the bow running the windlass to the person at the helm. Index finger, slow ahead pointing out direction.
Clenched fist neutral.
Thumb reverse.
We lower the anchor to the bottom with the boat motionless. Slowly backing, thumb, clenched fist, laying out the required chain length based on the depth and expected weather. Clenched fist and thumb, using the slow motion and weight of the boat to stretch out the chain till it comes out of the water tight and set. Mark the location with the gps, radar and visual sightings on the shore.
Make drinks and relax occasionally checking for dragging.
Weighing anchor using hand signals to slowly retrieve the anchor chain using wash down hose. If the anchor has a lot of fouling usually mud I leave the anchor below the water surface and use the slow ahead motion of the boat to wash and dislodge the mud and or the wash down hose solid fresh water stream.
The Manatee has 300 gallon fresh water tankage so I use fresh water to avoid chain locker BO !

Mike Negley said:

Some time ago after a serious hurricane many boats were lost due to the breaking of nylon anchor rodes where anti-chafing gear was used. One of the major rope manufactures did research on this and determined the chafing gear caused excess heat from the stretching back and forth of the nylon rode inside the chafing gear. Often boat owners were using rubber or plastic hose which did not allow ventilation.

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I often wondered about that, and it was one other factor that to me always made an all-chain rode preferable where technically possible, and where not, whether using no chafe protection and just accepting some timber gun'l sacrificial wear was preferable..?

Wow, Just watched Steve's full video. No real surprise to me Sarca rules..! They are both Sarcas, Eric, the first, with roll-bar, is the Super Sarca, the one without is the Sarca Excel. Both went well, as expected, however, one thing that did strike me with most of the test runs was that it seemed to be moving a bit faster than ideal, with the flukes sort of rolling or bouncing over the round rocks, and not having time enough to dig in between them - until eventually they did. I realise Steve could not go any slower than idle reverse, however, as Peter (MV Weebles) hinted, it tended to illustrate how the sit and let it drag for a bit before testing a back-down, instead of an immediate reverse thrust, is probably the best way to set virtually any anchor, but especially these next gen ones, and why many of us do exactly that - well, did, in my case.

I usually have a good idea what the bottom is like from experience and research.

Guaranteed? Nope but as pointed out, powering gives some info, but no guarantees either.

As pointed out many times, not sure there is a "never power set crowd", because in my case I did say there are times it is used to verify bottom conditions, situation, etc.

If I gathered from this latest video, as I fast forwarded a bit....did any anchor hold really well past 500 lbs straight line pull? Point being that just moving the anchor inches either way could result in the tip hitting a soft spot or rock that could affect its grab. Then a slight back and forth motion at anchor could have worked any of those anchors loose. While it is an informative test and I thank Steve for the wonderful picture is worth 1000 words videos, ibut t is by no means conclusive. Do it 20 times and get some statistical performance repeats to make me believe to the next level.

Plus, if I has an anchor drag as long as any of those did in the test...probably would go to my backup choice anchorage. Again experience in region and in general helps with committing to a particular anchorage.

psneeld said:

I usually have a good idea what the bottom is like from experience and research.

Guaranteed? Nope but as pointed out, powering gives some info, but no guarantees either.

As pointed out many times, not sure there is a "never power set crowd", because in my case I did say there are times it is used to verify bottom conditions, situation, etc.

If I gathered from this latest video, as I fast forwarded a bit....did any anchor hold really well past 500 lbs straight line pull? Point being that just moving the anchor inches either way could result in the tip hitting a soft spot or rock that could affect its grab. Then a slight back and forth motion at anchor could have worked any of those anchors loose. While it is an informative test and I thank Steve for the wonderful picture is worth 1000 words videos, ibut t is by no means conclusive. Do it 20 times and get some statistical performance repeats to make me believe to the next level.

Plus, if I has an anchor drag as long as any of those did in the test...probably would go to my backup choice anchorage. Again experience in region and in general helps with committing to a particular anchorage.

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I too fast forwarded. Steve's closing comments were instructive and address your point of no anchor really knocking it out of the park. He more or less said if you decide to anchor on a rocky bottom, mind the weather forecast and set a loud anchor alarm or better yet, also have crew stand an anchor watch.

Good to see usable information out there. I watch a few cruising channels which are for the most part empty calories.

Peter

Probably why it remains called after all these years..." the ART of anchoring".....

mvweebles said:

Ted, to your point, no anchor is perfect for all conditions. My question to you is how do you know what the seabed is until you test it? How do you know your anchor will set until you back-down on it? Trust a chart or Active Captain reviews? Only anchor in the same locations, knowing the Chesapeake is all mud therefore all is good?

Without backing down, how do you know what the bottom is, and that your anchor is the right choice?

Peter

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Drop the hook and see what happens.
My Rocna hasn't failed in any conditions so far including Chesapeake bay mud. I generally use anchorages protected from wind if I think the bottom will be soupy mud. Most of where I anchor is sandy or sticky mud. Less rocky areas on the East coast until you get to New England or the Great Lakes. The Rocna does a stellar job penetrating hard pack bottom and vegetation, providing you use a proper scope (7:1) and aren't trying to anchor at 5 knots. My success is based on picking good anchorages, a good anchor, and ample scope. I don't switch anchors based on expected bottoms. As mentioned previously, I rarely anchor in more than 20' of water. With my 350' of chain, it makes more sense to me to flatten the scope than switch anchors. If I were concerned about holding, I'd rather have a hundred feet of chain on the bottom that the boat can barely move as opposed to a 3.5:1 scope on an anchor I almost never use.

It's an accepted fact that on some percentage of reversals, the anchor is going to break free. I pick anchorage, and scope based on the anchor being able to reset itself. Since you lack the confidence in your anchor setting itself without backing down, what's your plan for the inevitable break out?

Are you dodging or answering the above question?

Ted

Totally agree drop, deploy and wait is becoming the more common protocol has people gain more experience with the new anchors. However, would comment the old rule of having someone on the foredeck watching and controlling the anchoring remains best practice in my mind. Except where’s there’s sediment you can see the actual drop. Throughout the Caribbean you can see the bottom at 30’ without trouble. Nexgens do lousy with weed or grass. You can easily drop into that small patch of sand if you’re leaning over the bow and watching. Even up to Maine where water visibility is nil you can stop chain from coming out put a foot on the chain and press. You know right off if it’s skipping. You feel it. So although we’ve had a remote still think it’s best to go up to the foredeck to anchor.
Also think there’s something to be said to using shorter scopes with the new anchors. Think other than catenary effect going more than 5:1 doesn’t add as much to holding power as it did with the older designs. Boats are expensive. Dragging is quite dangerous. Having a rode break even more so. Continue to believe there’s no reason to not having all chain on any vessel over ~30’

O C Diver said:

pick anchorage, and scope based on the anchor being able to reset itself. Since you lack the confidence in your anchor setting itself without backing down, what's your plan for the inevitable break out?

Are you dodging or answering the above question?

Ted

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Plan A is anchor sets. Plan B is anchor resets. Therefore Step #1 is to heavily emphasize Plan A and try to make Plan B superfluous - after all, vast majority of the anchors that don't set in the first place will not re-set. If an anchor isn't going to set, I want that information ASAP, not middle of the night when I'm dragging. In addition to heavy investment in ground tackle, that includes attention to weather, conditions, and setting the anchor in the first place.

This probably comes down to cruising grounds. With all due respect Ted, you seem okay with the idea of re-setting - maybe that works fine in popular cruising grounds. I see re-setting as an emergency parachute that will hopefully never be deployed.

I once tried to anchor in in a cove along the Pacific Coast that was reportedly a protected anchorage, albeit rarely used due to prevailing winds. I could not get an anchor to set so I moved to the next anchorage, a non-trivial decision as it was over 20 nms away, obviously a fairly remote location. Experiences like those definitely color my decision making and get me feeling pretty isolated and self-reliant. As a result, every cell of my body resists the idea of not power-setting an anchor every time I set an anchor no matter if I've anchored in the same spot dozens of times. It's a simple way to mitigate risk, and I sleep better as a result.

Peter

Peter have no issue with your practice. In fact often do the same. But with the following caveats. I pay attention to the nature of the bottom. In soft, loose mud my practice has changed. Don’t go above a low rpm test if I do a test. Do pay attention as I want to be sure if I drag I don’t drag into trouble. Do run that possible test a small bit longer but that’s it for the first night. Do retest the set before retiring the next day at a bit more rpm or if weather expected.
On packed sand it’s different do a low rpm test then a higher rpm test.
However in all cases no backdown testing at time of the drop. Now always wait before doing that. That has changed. To the point we often have turned the engine off for quite awhile before our last test of the set. Think situational awareness is key in anchoring. Conditions, bottom, Tides, currents surrounds etc.

Hippocampus said:

...Continue to believe there’s no reason to not having all chain on any vessel over ~30’

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We plan to winter cruise the mainland inlets and outer islands on BC's north coast in retirement, when we can pick doable-ish weather windows. With a typical 330' rode on our boat, that means having to anchor on the slope of sediment (river silt at the angle of repose) near rivers or creeks. The water is around 1000' deep in the main channels.

In the mainland inlets mountains rise pretty much straight from the water, except where valleys reach the shore. This means dropping the hook deep enough to account for big tidal swings (can be over 20') and not going aground on tidal flats near the creek at low tide.

These areas freeze solid during cold snaps because of all the fresh water floating on the surface. In our marina for example, all the slips near shore get frozen in while ours remains ice free because the fresh water from the creek gets diluted with salt water by the time it gets to our boat.

This means having to anchor further out, in deeper water, because of the angle of repose.

To understand what the bottom looks like around here, imagine looking up a narrow glaciated valley in a mountain range, where the mountains rise up to 5,000' on both sides. Those outwash fans of sediment where the creeks become less steep on the sides of the valley are what we're anchoring on.

I've read that many boats here and in Alaska have a 600' to 700' rode so they can get to deeper water where the bottom tends to flatten out at the heads of bays and inlets and stay ice free in winter.

Eight strand nylon with some chain is probably the most realistic option for getting 600' to 700' of rode on a lot of boats.

Hippocampus said:

However in all cases no backdown testing at time of the drop. Now always wait before doing that. That has changed. To the point we often have turned the engine off for quite awhile before our last test of the set. Think situational awareness is key in anchoring. Conditions, bottom, Tides, currents surrounds etc.

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Your not the first to say this - my question is why wait? And I mean that as an actual question. Other's have said it's due to Next Gen anchors vs simply waiting for boat to re-orient itself. What material changes are expected? When I read the OEM instructions for these anchors, they say nothing about waiting, but rather suggest a modest power-set.

Maybe I'll drop Steve on Panope a note - he has a zillion times more experience and forethought on this than I do.

Peter

We pull right away because you have to set the anchor ‘uphill’ on the angle of repose.

mvweebles said:

Plan A is anchor sets. Plan B is anchor resets. Therefore Step #1 is to heavily emphasize Plan A and try to make Plan B superfluous - after all, vast majority of the anchors that don't set in the first place will not re-set. If an anchor isn't going to set, I want that information ASAP, not middle of the night when I'm dragging. In addition to heavy investment in ground tackle, that includes attention to weather, conditions, and setting the anchor in the first place.

This probably comes down to cruising grounds. With all due respect Ted, you seem okay with the idea of re-setting - maybe that works fine in popular cruising grounds. I see re-setting as an emergency parachute that will hopefully never be deployed.

I once tried to anchor in in a cove along the Pacific Coast that was reportedly a protected anchorage, albeit rarely used due to prevailing winds. I could not get an anchor to set so I moved to the next anchorage, a non-trivial decision as it was over 20 nms away, obviously a fairly remote location. Experiences like those definitely color my decision making and get me feeling pretty isolated and self-reliant. As a result, every cell of my body resists the idea of not power-setting an anchor every time I set an anchor no matter if I've anchored in the same spot dozens of times. It's a simple way to mitigate risk, and I sleep better as a result.

Peter

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Whether an anchor is initially set or not dosen't have any bearing on whether it will reset if it breaks out of the bottom on a reversal.

Yes, I'm ok with the anchor resetting on a reversal when it breaks out of the bottom. I don't think I have ever had the Roncna not immediately set and stay set. Even when anchoring in lake Superior on the rocky bottom, it catches amongst the large rocks and it's set.

Curious how you would know if your anchor broke out of the bottom on a a tide or wind reversal and then reset within 10' of the original set? Might happen more than you think.

I don't have a problem with what you choose to do. I recognize that I am mostly anchored in situations where there will be atleast one reversal of the wind or tidal currents while anchored. Realizing that the absolutely best set anchor can break out of the bottom on a reversal, I chose my rode and scope to be able to reset itself without my supervision. I test those parameters on the initial set to confirm that it can accomplish a reset unsupervised.

Ted

mvweebles said:

Your not the first to say this - my question is why wait? And I mean that as an actual question. Other's have said it's due to Next Gen anchors vs simply waiting for boat to re-orient itself. What material changes are expected? When I read the OEM instructions for these anchors, they say nothing about waiting, but rather suggest a modest power-set.

Peter

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Try jetting in a piling. Jet one in 4 or 5 feet into the bottom. You can lift it right back out. Wait an hour between jetting and lifting and you will think it's in concrete. The bottom can settle and strengthen its hold quickly, but it's not instantaneous. Maybe that's why you suffer more initial set breakouts.

Ted

Murray that makes prefect sense. Stand corrected. In your program all chain would be a unnecessary weight and expense. Totally impractical.
Peter have had the advantage of being in the water and watched a Rocna set. They take awhile to even start to dig in significantly. Over the course of days you watch it dig in further and further. A strong pull when just the tip of thing has started this process just causes it to skip. Yes it will grab and set in a surprising short distance even when the bottom is less than ideal but often you pick a spot and want it at just that spot. For us most commonly it because we’re worried if it needs a reset because of shift in wind or current I want it to stay in a good area. Also I agree with O.C. Think he’s correct.
Finally our experience is limited being east coast of US/Canada and Caribbean. However, the Caribbean means you see your chain and anchor every time you dinghy out and in. It’s part of our routine to circle the boat, look at it, the running gear, and hulls bottom every time we come an go. We also trace the chain and look at the anchor. Tides are meaningless. Rarely a shift from that. Trades are pretty constant in direction so rare major shift from that but a 20-30 degree wind shift isn’t that unusual. So you do see evidence of resets. It’s quite apparent in the sand. Other than the Spade because of the roll bar think most of the newer anchors come entirely out before resetting. Next anchor replacement will be a Spade. Think they’re worth the extra bucks.

Peter B wrote;
“They are both Sarcas, Eric, the first, with roll-bar, is the Super Sarca, the one without is the Sarca Excel.”

Indeed I know that but many many on the forum full of new guys don’t. And I wanted to know what SARCA Weebles was talking about myself.

O C Diver said:

Try jetting in a piling. Jet one in 4 or 5 feet into the bottom. You can lift it right back out. Wait an hour between jetting and lifting and you will think it's in concrete. The bottom can settle and strengthen its hold quickly, but it's not instantaneous. Maybe that's why you suffer more initial set breakouts.

Ted

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I am familiar with jetting-in a piling. You are talking about manual/mechanical intervention including a hydraulic hammer-ram to drive it home. With exception of a power-set, an anchor has no such manual or mechanical intervention so it's at the whim of nature. Rest a pile upright without mechanical intervention and it will take years to settle into a sea floor, even a soft mud one.

Most of my personal cruising has been in San Francisco Bay and its tributaries. SF Bay has up to a 9-foot tidal swing. Reversing currents of 2+ kts are common in many of the anchorages. Even the tributary rivers have reversing currents. SF Bay is sticky, stinky grey mud that is pretty good holding.

But when I was delivering, I have anchored from Alaska to Florida, sometimes in some pretty remote areas; sometimes with localized weather conditions that created unforecast gusts of 40kts or more. Yes, I have dragged anchor a couple times during extreme conditions, and have not been able to set an anchor a couple times. The Next Gen anchors are a significant upgrade, but I do not believe they displace the need for what I consider best-practice of power-setting an anchor - exactly as is recommended by the respective anchor manufacturers.

Ted, in the end, we are talking past each other. I simply cannot fathom being so confident an anchor (any anchor, including my Rocna Vulcan) will set that my only worry is that it will re-set. If I hear you correctly, you are comfortable with that your Rocna is so good at resetting that the initial set is a no-brainer - no need to power-set. I just can't get there. Given your demonstrated knowledge on so many topics, I'm surprised the gap between us is so vast, but so be it. That's one of the really cool parts of cruising, and of forums like these where cruising is paused.

Peter