Transitioning from "Dreamer" to "Doer"

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m10brink

m10brink

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2020
Messages
33
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Seahorse
Vessel Make
OA 40 Europa
Hello, all!

Finally making the transition from lurker to official member, and from daydreaming on the dock to taking the leap to actually owning a (large) boat and cruising.

We had our offer on a 1985 OA 40' Europa accepted and are anxiously awaiting survey and sea trial next week. I'm sure posting on a forum and opening this up for discussion is no way to ease the anxiety, but I'm sure there are some fine folks here that can sympathize with the heady combination of excitement and fear (healthy fear?) that we're experiencing.

A little bit more about us: I am a designer and occasional instructor at the local university. And my husband teaches and farms. (And is a handy mechanic and knows his way around a wiring diagram. I lucked out!) We have one daughter, who is in second grade. Our plans are to spend the next couple summers on the boat exploring the northern stretch of the Mississippi. And this immediate winter, we're going to be brushing up on our navigation and boat handling skills before we take the helm next spring.

Last, but certainly not least, thank you to everyone that has contributed to this forum: I've been reading the threads for the last three years and have gained a lot of insight from all of you. Hopefully, you'll see us out on the water next spring! :)
 
Welcome aboard. And congrats on your new boat, hoot the survey and sea trial go well. We will absolutely need photos when you close on it.
 
Welcome aboard - you sound excited! :D

A question: is there a story behind your member name?
 
Welcome aboard and good luck with the upcoming purchase process. If you're able to post the ad for the boat, you're likely to get many thoughts on things to look for or expect as you go through the sea trial and survey. Is this your first large boat purchase? Do you have questions about the process?

Greg.
 
GregBrannon said:
Welcome aboard and good luck with the upcoming purchase process. If you're able to post the ad for the boat, you're likely to get many thoughts on things to look for or expect as you go through the sea trial and survey. Is this your first large boat purchase? Do you have questions about the process?

Greg.
Click to expand...

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/1985-ocean-alexander-europa-sedan-40-7561195/

Here is the ad, although I don't think the interior pictures do the interior any favors. (I think she looks better in person, but I am pretty smitten, so my opinion might be biased at this point.) There also aren't any engine room pictures, but the engine room was tidy and impressively clean to our eyes. After looking at ads for the last three years, I normally would have passed over one without pictures of the engine, but the boat was close enough that we went to look at it in person. The owner was also kind enough to start the engines and they sounded healthy. We'll see how they perform next week, but we're not expecting any huge red flags with the engines. (Lehman 135s w/about 6000 hours)

We would definitely love some advice on what to look for at the survey, especially if anyone has knowledge of this particular model. It is our first big boat purchase, so we are definitely newbies. I think we have the general buying process down as far as knowing what kind of paperwork and additional expenses we'll be incurring. (Thank you to the financials/red tape forum for that!) Someone had also posted a link to the marine survey 101, which was also very helpful.

My biggest concerns for the survey are the condition of the bottom and overall structure. (I have a feeling this is where no amount of head knowledge gained by reading is going to help us out. Knowing what to look for is one thing, actually recognizing it in person is another!) Identifying issues in the hull is the area where we have the least amount of confidence.

I'm expecting that we'll do a lot of preventative maintenance on her over the next several years. The teak decks are a huge concern, but I don't think they are a problem yet. The decks have been sealed since the late eighties. She has been stored in a covered slip during the summer and has been stored indoors the last several winters. Hopefully this translates to healthy core on the deck. Same thing with windows and portlights. No evidence of leaking, but I'm anticipating a good amount of work/time to keep them that way. If the sale goes through, look forward to a lot of posts asking for advice on repairs. :D
 
Comodave said:
Welcome aboard. And congrats on your new boat, hoot the survey and sea trial go well. We will absolutely need photos when you close on it.
Click to expand...

Thank you! There will definitely be more pictures if the sale goes through. Perhaps I'm superstitious, but it seems unlucky to post pictures that aren't in the ad before closing. Don't want to jinx it.


menzies said:
Welcome aboard - you sound excited! :D

A question: is there a story behind your member name?
Click to expand...

Definitely excited! Reminds me of having a baby: happy, but also a bit in awe of the responsibility and commitment we're signing up for. *edited to fix a typo. No "singing" will be involved in the purchase of this boat.

And nothing terribly special about my member name. Just my first initial and last name converted to something easy to remember. My husband has a Dutch lineage, so the "10" stands in for "Ten."
 
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Always view old teak decks with a jaundiced eye! They can cause many headaches.
Try to get under every square inch of the deck to check for leaks and/or saturation.

I had the same Westerbeke generator and I had some age-related issues with it.
I had the cylinder head off once and a few electrical maintenance gremlins but it did
have a lot of hours on it.
 
Looks nice. Hope it works out for you.
 
Nice looking boat. A one owner boat this age is rare to find. If the owners kept good records and receipts to back up the log book, that will tell you a lot about how the boat was used, maintained and repaired. Too often a term like rebuilt or fully serviced is open to interpretation but receipts will verify and define the work done (or not done). Also a good log will have engine speeds logged along with hours. 6000 hours, if run at the proper speed and load have lots of life left. If they've lived in fresh water all their life, even better. Window frames and decks typically get water under them and cause rot. How much, is the question. Overall, sounds like a good possibility that any issues revealed by the survey will be manageable. Verify, with eyes on, the age and condition of batteries. Cheers.
 
Just based on the photos and the fact she's under cover suggests she's in above average condition. OA are well built boats so the foundation is solid. If the boat has been stored indoors over the winters and under cover in the slip there's a lower probability of issues with the decks (less chance for water intrusion followed by freezing). I'd be surprised if anything with the hull were an issue. Fuel tanks should be examined for rust and leaks.

Leymans are solid engines which tend to last a long time, are relatively easy to maintain, and have plenty of parts available. Better yet are ones that have mainly been in fresh water.

All that said, the survey is critical. Surveys almost always find problems so be prepared. Also, if you complete purchase you will find things as you go, it is inevitable. With a boat of this age you'll need to start replacing parts just due to age. My advice would be to expect to spend 50% of the purchase cost on maintenance and repairs during the first year or two. You might get lucky but it is a 36 year old boat.
 
Thank you all for the suggestions of things to pay special attention to in the survey! Unfortunately, I won't be there, but my husband is getting a list of all the things mentioned.* We're glad the general consensus is "proceed with caution" and not "run away!!!"

(*I'm not sure how to word that without making him sound like the minion in this relationship, but that's not the case at all. Better a stack of notes than to miss something crucial, which seemed really easy to do while in the thick of things on board. I'll see if I can get him to join so he can post himself, but he's usually content reading over my shoulder.)

Slowmo: I have a feeling she'll eat up any budget we'll give her, but it seems like most of the boats mentioned on the forum will do the same at some point. She's about half of what we budgeted for purchase/repairs/updates, so hopefully we have a generous enough cushion to get her fixed up properly. Maybe it would be smarter to get a newer boat and have less wiggle room in the budget, but maybe not. Either way, I'm sure our boat dollars will be gone faster than expected.

KnotYet: gremlins in the generator sound like fun... This one has some pretty low hours, so we may have some issues from not enough use. It sounds like the generator wasn't used much, I guess we'll find out if it was because they had problems with it, or if it didn't get much use because the boat was at the dock.

Swfla: Adding all those things to my list. I did notice one of the portlights had some cracking in the exterior trim. Crossing my fingers that the rot isn't too bad there.
 
Welcome, and congratulations. They are great boats.
We have a 1983 OA Europa we’ve owned for 10 years. It also had been stored under cover and is in good shape. We continued the well-documented routine maintenance and have come nowhere close to that “50% of purchase price”, more like 5%. Of course you can put a lot into a boat. The style and layout suits us. Send me a message with contact info if you like and I’ll send mine and see if I can answer questions. Hollywood here on the forum is another Europa 40 owner.
 
I agree, a quick 50% of purchase price spend on repairs sounds high. But at 6000 hours the Lehmans have done some work,you are buying "unused life", 10,000 hours would be a fair life( yes,13000+ in commercial/charter/constant use is possible), mechanical survey on top of the general one will be useful and covers the genset too. A nice shiny boat that looks loved, I wish you well with it.
 
This appears to be a nice boat. Not many pictures, but looks like there are minimal electronics. I view that as a big plus on an older boat as it means there have been no DIY butcher jobs.

I also noted there is still sheen and reflection in the gelcoat, the byproduct of protected storage. I saw pictures of a 40 year old Willard recently that had been boathouse stored - it makes a huge difference.

The OP has probably already deduced from reading TF, saddle fuel tanks are a common defect and should be closely inspected if possible. I would expect there to be no issues given the covered storage, but should still look for any signs of weeping through the deck fill plates if only for preventative maintenance.

Boat looks like a time capsule. Congrats.

Peter
 
First ask how old batteries are. Then see if you've been lied to. Visual inspection of all batteries. General appearance, bulging sides, date sticker, size and type. Your camera is very helpful here.
 
The Europa style and being under cover provide significant protection for the fuel tanks and the house windows and sidewalls. Around ‘83 the outsides of the wood-frame windows were epoxied, which aslo helps a lot. The tops of the tanks can be inspected with an inspection camera through the dip-stick access panels located in the aft outboard salon floor.
Confirm the engines are 2725E, the 135 hp variant. 120s are 2715E and require some different maintenance items.
Unless the work is confirmed with receipts I would plan on changing main, transmission, and oil coolers for both engines, and all the water hoses. Change belts, oil, coolant, and transmission oil. Replace the damper plates or carry spares and you’ve done most of the renewal items.
Batteries are on-condition, but you should probably plan a 6-year life for starters.
 
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Additional items to be considered include engine mounts, shaft alignment, valve adjust, and injector service. If you can change oil and spark plugs you can do all of these. Brian at American Diesel 804-435-4107 can provide a manual, parts, and information.
 
In my earlier post I meant change hoses, etc, for both engines, not change both engines. Edited to reflect that.
 
Wifey B: Welcome aboard. How refreshing to read such a nice initial post where one shares enough information about themselves and the boat in question that we can actually respond intelligently. Now it's all down to the survey. Hopefully good which will mean it can be a great boat for you. Also, glad you have a plan of education but then wouldn't that go with the territory of your backgrounds. Cruising your home area in summers will get you prepared and won't be long until you're wanting to venture further from home. :D
 
Some general advice would be to ask if you are DIYers or not. If you are then the older boat will be fun since you like to work on the boat. If you are not DIYers then go for the newer boat since paying someone to do the work for you will be very expensive. It all depends on what you like to do. I love working on my boat probably as much as running it. But not everyone like working on boats so they pay someone else to do the work, and it will be expensive.
 
Swfla said:
First ask how old batteries are. Then see if you've been lied to. Visual inspection of all batteries. General appearance, bulging sides, date sticker, size and type. Your camera is very helpful here.
Click to expand...

I've read several recent posts about new owners being given false information about the boat they're buying. Not just batteries but other maintenance work as well. If you can't verify it with accurate receipts and matching logs, take any owner's or broker's info with a dose of skepticism.
 
Swfla said:
I've read several recent posts about new owners being given false information about the boat they're buying. Not just batteries but other maintenance work as well. If you can't verify it with accurate receipts and matching logs, take any owner's or broker's info with a dose of skepticism.
Click to expand...

Gathering of information in any business negotiation (and let's be clear it's a business negotiation and needs to be treated as such) is always challenging. There's an old statement "Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies." While I don't endorse that I think of what good attorneys do. They ask some questions that they either know the answer to or can easily verify it. It's great when they prove themselves to you with honesty early and some certainly do but many others either shade the truth or just ignore it. Get any documents you can and gather clues.

One problem is that typically you're dealing with a broker and there may even be two involved. Even if everyone was attempting to be honest, going from owner to his broker to your broker to you, there's a lot of chance for misleading or incorrect translation.
 

Thank you, that's very reassuring to know that you haven't encountered excessive costs with maintaining your OA. I'll send you a PM with our contact info. If we move forward, it will be definitely be helpful to have someone that has experience with the same systems and model.

My husband has quite a bit of experience with small engines and automotive, and he also has done some work on semi diesels and our tractor. I did make a note of all the maintenance items you suggested; there is an inventory of spare parts, so we'll check to see if any of those items are already there. And thank you for the contact info for Brian. :)
 

Good reminders here. I'll see if we can go through all of the records, and at the very least confirm that the mentioned records exist. My impression was that the owner was genuine, but with 35 years of things to remember, I wouldn't expect all of it to be accurately recalled. (Will definitely try to verify things ourselves.) I'm not sure I want to speculate on the sincerity of brokers... :angel: But nothing to give us misgivings yet. Maybe that's a side benefit of teaching: a finely tuned sense for bull crap. :rofl:
 
Comodave said:
Some general advice would be to ask if you are DIYers or not. If you are then the older boat will be fun since you like to work on the boat. If you are not DIYers then go for the newer boat since paying someone to do the work for you will be very expensive. It all depends on what you like to do. I love working on my boat probably as much as running it. But not everyone like working on boats so they pay someone else to do the work, and it will be expensive.
Click to expand...

Good question! I would put myself somewhere between Paris Hilton in the Simple Life and Bob Villa. (Yes, my pop culture references are old...) We're not completely clueless or afraid of putting in some hard work, but there are definitely some tasks that we wouldn't want to do ourselves. I don't think either of us will do anything that requires more than a drill to the joinery without parental supervision. (My dad does hardwood floors, and his dad is a cabinet maker. Wood working is not one of either of our skills.) If we didn't have the time off in the summer, we would probably have to hire a lot of the work out. But I think we will enjoy putzing around the boat.
 
mvweebles said:
Peter
Click to expand...

I totally agree about the minimal electronics. I'm glad we don't have 30 years of updates to work around or fix.

I was aware of the corrosion issues in the fuel tanks, but made a point to go back and read more about the saddle tanks and their issues after you mentioned it. It looks like you replaced the ones in your boat: sounds like quite the project!
 
Doing some things like core replacement doesn’t require great woodworking skills. It is pretty low skill and high energy work. So if you can learn some simple skills you will go a long way to saving yourself a lot of money.
 
Separate survey from a qualified engine surveyor would be a priority for me along with oil analysis undertaken on both engines, both transmissions and generator. This should give complete peace of mind.
Black iron fuel tanks - if they haven't been replaced - require close inspection. Difficult to examine but should at least be able to shine a flashlight along the tops of the tanks to see if there is corrosion from leaky deck fills.
I use DieselShok from USA Fuel Service which holds any water present in suspension.
Transmission oil coolers - shouldn't be a problem in fresh water but I do the loop each year and one of mine gave out at 5 years.
I replace both now every 3 years - probably over-kill but spending $130 for a cooler beats $6k+ for a transmission rebuild.
Good luck - looks like a fine boat.
 
The type of navigation you will get used to on the upper Miss. is far different that anything you will see if you move farther afield on the boat. Do you plan on doing that? Glad you are here.
 
transitioning from dreamer

m10brink said:
https://www.boattrader.com/boat/1985-ocean-alexander-europa-sedan-40-7561195/

Here is the ad, although I don't think the interior pictures do the interior any favors. (I think she looks better in person, but I am pretty smitten, so my opinion might be biased at this point.) There also aren't any engine room pictures, but the engine room was tidy and impressively clean to our eyes. After looking at ads for the last three years, I normally would have passed over one without pictures of the engine, but the boat was close enough that we went to look at it in person. The owner was also kind enough to start the engines and they sounded healthy. We'll see how they perform next week, but we're not expecting any huge red flags with the engines. (Lehman 135s w/about 6000 hours)

We would definitely love some advice on what to look for at the survey, especially if anyone has knowledge of this particular model. It is our first big boat purchase, so we are definitely newbies. I think we have the general buying process down as far as knowing what kind of paperwork and additional expenses we'll be incurring. (Thank you to the financials/red tape forum for that!) Someone had also posted a link to the marine survey 101, which was also very helpful.

My biggest concerns for the survey are the condition of the bottom and overall structure. (I have a feeling this is where no amount of head knowledge gained by reading is going to help us out. Knowing what to look for is one thing, actually recognizing it in person is another!) Identifying issues in the hull is the area where we have the least amount of confidence.

I'm expecting that we'll do a lot of preventative maintenance on her over the next several years. The teak decks are a huge concern, but I don't think they are a problem yet. The decks have been sealed since the late eighties. She has been stored in a covered slip during the summer and has been stored indoors the last several winters. Hopefully this translates to healthy core on the deck. Same thing with windows and portlights. No evidence of leaking, but I'm anticipating a good amount of work/time to keep them that way. If the sale goes through, look forward to a lot of posts asking for advice on repairs. :D
Click to expand...

That's a gorgeous boat. Congrats.

1. Teak decks are a pain. They cause water intrusion into the deck quite often and are a maintenance nightmare. This from a Grand Banks owner. If I were buying that boat, I'd look at removing the teak and glassing the deck. Not real cheap but will pay off in the long run. My GB had that done. Your surveyor should be able to tell you what the moisture level of the deck is. If he can't, get another surveyor. This is important. 2. Blistering of the hull. Your surveyor should be able to tell you about this as well. If it's time to do a bottom job on it, you might consider repairing the blisters and adding a barrier coat prior to bottom painting, which will prevent blisters in the future. Again, that's an additional expense but worth it, IMHO. Particularly on a boat of this caliber. 3. Don't worry about the hours on the engines. My Lehman 120 has over 7600 and purrs like a kitten. Knock on wood. A well maintained Lehman will run for 10,000 hrs before needing anything major done to it. 4. Your surveyor should tell you the condition of the cutlass bearings and stuffing boxes. If it's time to repair or replace, then while it's out of the water for the survey is a good time to do that. Saves you another haul out. I prefer a dripless stuffing box but that's just me. Make sure you have the sanitation system checked to ensure that the heads work and the holding tank can be pumped out. Check the condition of the fuel tanks. Are they original and are they the old "black iron" type? If they are, they will probably have to be replaced. Those are real problems on trawlers of that age. Replacing them is a big job and can be quite expensive depending on your set up. If you don't know what that is, do some google research. This is very important and can effect the cost of the boat.

Finally, get the best surveyor you can get. Do some research on those you are considering. The best money you will ever spend on this boat is the initial survey, so make sure you have a good one with credentials and recommendations.

Good luck and again, Congratulations!
 
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