Set up a bridle or lay out more scope?

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sseltzer

sseltzer

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
34
Location
USA
Vessel Name
New Adventure
Vessel Make
2006 Mainship 34 Trawler
After purchasing a new to me Mainship 34T I replaced the windlass, added a 55lb Rocna Vulcan, 200 feet of 5/16" HT chain and 200 feet of 5/8" 8-plait. Last weekend I finally made it out to Santa Cruz Island. I anchored in 30 feet of water and laid out all of the chain plus 30 feet of rode and did not set up a bridle.

On my previous boat (sailboat) with all chain I always used a double anchor bridle.

Is there an advantage to using a double bridle over just laying out enough scope to ride on the rode?

Thanks,
Steve
 
sseltzer said:
After purchasing a new to me Mainship 34T I replaced the windlass, added a 55lb Rocna Vulcan, 200 feet of 5/16" HT chain and 200 feet of 5/8" 8-plait. Last weekend I finally made it out to Santa Cruz Island. I anchored in 30 feet of water and laid out all of the chain plus 30 feet of rode and did not set up a bridle.

On my previous boat (sailboat) with all chain I always used a double anchor bridle.

Is there an advantage to using a double bridle over just laying out enough scope to ride on the rode?

Thanks,
Steve
Click to expand...

Do you mean bridle or snubber? In my mind at least, a bridle would be a set of lines led from your chain or rode to cleats on either side of the boat to keep the anchor line centered or maybe to orient your vessel more favorably. A snubber is just a length of line led from your chain to allow some flex and take the load off your windlass. It could be a single line to a single cleat.

So a bridle could act as a snubber.
 
I typically use a Mantus anchor bridle, two lines that attach to the bow cleats.

Last weekend I just secured the rode to the sampson post to take the load off the windlass.
 
sseltzer said:
I typically use a Mantus anchor bridle, two lines that attach to the bow cleats.

Last weekend I just secured the rode to the sampson post to take the load off the windlass.
Click to expand...

That should be fine so long as you're okay with so much scope. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason for a bridle in that case would be if you needed to try and modify the orientation of the boat relative to the anchor line.
 
Thanks socalrider. I wasn't sure if having two points of contact is better than one.
 
The windlass is designed to raise and lower the anchor. The bridle is designed to take the strain off the windlass. Yes, it can be a one arm or a two arm bridle.
Also, the windlass is not designed to pull the boat forward when retrieving the anchor.
Move the boat forward putting slack in the chain then pick up the slack with the windlass. Do again and again until the anchor is well off the bottom then, raise the anchor until it is secure in bow pulpit. Secure the anchor, with a piece of line, to the windlass or something solid and then, take the strain off the windlass.
 
Got it, thanks OldDan1943. I secure the anchor on the pulpit with a hold down strap. Appreciate the reminder to back off the windlass after attaching.
 
You are taking the stain off the windlass ok by securing the fiber part of your rode to the Sampson post, but a snubber, either out to the chain with whatever kind of hook you want or a braided-end snubber which will hold to either your chain or your fiber rode and secured to the post as the primary strain relief would be better in my mind. You would be sacrificing the snubber to potential chafe/breakage rather than the more valuable fiber rode which you could attach to one of the cleats.
 
Your nylon rode belayed to the Sampson post is fine. Bridle only needed if “sailing” excessively around anchor & even then Bridle may not stop it. In shallower water if nylon rode not let out, u might want to employ bridle or a single snubber to release stress on your windlass. Otherwise KISS principle reigns.
 
we have a large boat that has always had a big wind age problems and it pulls it back and forth at anchor.
some times with a snap on the chain
i used a 3/8 blue steel single line to make a single harness with a 1/2 shackle in the middle with a simple loop for shackle at the half way point
Then back to bow to be secured to kleets on ether side.
Works great but our boat is a little heavy and one night it pulled the shackle apart
It worked great
If i was to do it right i would buy the slip on shackle .
can't remember that makes makes a great set up for all sizes of boats.
and far as snubbers i only use a couple on the boat at the dock .
specially on the aft tie where my ropes are short and tight to pull the boat in to dock

they help a lot
 
I don't know what your foredeck setup looks like exactly, but one other consideration is where -- and through what -- is your rode coming aboard (vs. a bridle or snubber). If your rode is coming in over the anchor roller, is that adequate to take the stress of a less-than-perfect anchorage? Are there any chafe points?

Sometimes an advantage of a bridle is that it brings the stress aboard through stronger points than the anchor roller (and with less leverage). Hawse holes and cleats vs. a long skinny platform or small roller.

Just something to think about -- every setup is a bit different.
 
55 lb Rocna and 7:1 scope on a Mainship 34! I'm anchoring downwind of you!

Cats usually use bridles as the cleats are outboard. There are not typically decent center posts or strong cleats.

When anchoring in shallower water where you only have chain out, you will want to rig a snubber of some sort to transfer the load. Many folks construct special purpose snubber/bridles which spins up a debate on the best chain hook. I use a spring line with a rolling hitch to the chain. There are better hitches than a rolling hitch to use, but I can never remember them. If I'm worried about chafe for some reason, I'd rig a second one to form a bridle.

Peter
 
IF the boat sails about the anchor a bridal is helpfull.

A single thin snubber line works fine but it should be short enough to not reach the prop if it goes overboard.

I prefer no hook on the end of the snubber so it wont beat up the bottom if it goes overboard. A bowline can tie it to chain a hitch to heavy nylon that wont stretch till it blows hard.

The snubber is the anchors shock absorber so a thin and slightly heavier gives a choice for lighter and heavier winds. 3/8 or 1/2 inch for smaller boats?
 
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Question: Putting out both and bow anchor should eliminate sailing?
 
FF said:
I prefer no hook on the end of the snubber so it wont beat up the bottom if it goes overboard. A bowline can tie it to chain a hitch to heavy nylon that wont stretch till it blows hard.

The snubber is the anchors shock absorber so a thin and slightly heavier gives a choice for lighter and heavier winds. 3/8 or 1/2 inch for smaller boats?
Click to expand...


Agreed. Snubber can be attached with a rolling hitch, prusik hitch, etc. just fine, no need for a hook. On a 34, a 1/2" snubber is probably about right, just make sure the line used is plenty long (at least 30 feet, 50 would be better).



For a given size line, you can get more stretch by adding more length. I'd rather have a medium size, long snubber vs a shorter, skinny one, as the longer / thicker one will last longer and be usable over a wider wind range before needing to swap it out or risk failure (assuming lengths are adjusted so both give equal stretch).
 
This season we started using a chain clamp from Mantus, and have been quite pleased with it. It's a beast but it's proven reliable in being easy to attach/detach and stays put while being deployed/retrieved. This being an important factor, as knotting a rope or having a regular style chain hook failing out is an added hassle.

https://www.mantusmarine.com/product/m2-3-8-stainless-steel-chain-hook/

This with a single line bridle to a forward cleat. This takes pressure off the windlass, eliminates chain noise at the roller, lowers the scope angle to the water (a small bit, anyway) and helps reduce some of the tendency to 'sail' in the wind.

As to your setup, with the line/chain combination you could take the rope section of the rode and secure it on a forward cleat or a sampson post. The nylon stretching aspect of the rode would help provide the 'bounce' you'd get from a snubber. It wouldn't change your scope angle, but would potentially affect how the boat 'sails' when anchored. Going a step further with a bridle would involve knotting it to the rode.
 
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Chain hooks are either expensive (Mantus) Or tend to fall off during launch. I agree with previous post -hard to beat a simple rolling hitch, though personally I bought 20 feet of Dyneema and make my own soft shackles. Simple, cheap and strong plus easy to attach to chain. I change ‘em out every 2 years ‘cause I worry about chafe and they r so cheap to make.
 
sseltzer said:
After purchasing a new to me Mainship 34T I replaced the windlass, added a 55lb Rocna Vulcan, 200 feet of 5/16" HT chain and 30 feet of 5/8" 8-plait. Last weekend I finally made it out to Santa Cruz Island. I anchored in 30 feet of water and laid out all of the chain plus 30 feet of rode and did not set up a bridle.

On my previous boat (sailboat) with all chain I always used a double anchor bridle.

Is there an advantage to using a double bridle over just laying out enough scope to ride on the rode?

Thanks,
Steve
Click to expand...

Amount of rode (which includes both chain and rope), 230 feet in only 30 feet of water seems excessive even under storm conditions. Your swing would cover much of any anchorage. Pity other boats under anchor there. :eek: Bridles are helpful to reduce load on the windlass, and can help reduce side-to-side motion.
 
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markpierce I was in 30 feet of water plus 5 feet to the roller equals less than 7:1. How much scope would you recommend with 25-30 knot wind?

There were over 50 boats in the anchorage and I wasn't swinging more than anyone near me. I use a stern anchor if space is limited.
 
Make sure you are happy with the load on the samson post. There have been leverage issues here with Clipper 40 boats which have a tall Samson post, overloading the securing of the post leading to water ingress to the foredeck. Yours may be less tall and well secured and not have this issue. Dividing the load to 2 cleats by bridle may be better, though from time to time all the load may be on one or other of the 2 cleats as the boat swings.
 
BruceK said:
Make sure you are happy with the load on the samson post. There have been leverage issues here with Clipper 40 boats which have a tall Samson post, overloading the securing of the post leading to water ingress to the foredeck. Yours may be less tall and well secured and not have this issue. Dividing the load to 2 cleats by bridle may be better, though from time to time all the load may be on one or other of the 2 cleats as the boat swings.
Click to expand...
Actually, because the anchor set-up on my CHB (Clipper) 34 was so strong, this was something I never had to worry about, nor did it worry me that using just one snubber run through the same roller as the chain might put too much downward stress on the end of the pulpit, as one might well have described the anchor set-up as built like the proverbial brick outhouse - not a flattering description, but sort of apt.

However, since the case on here recently entitled "The front fell of", where the pulpit on a 48 footer literally broke in half, I have started to feel that this makes doing the bridle thing, even though more fiddly, possibly a wise way to go, as it does take the strain off the pulpit entirely. However, as Bruce above points out, the cleats take quite a lot of strain, especially when the vessel swings and it all goes on one of them for a time. So, they must then be very robust, with good-sized backing plates on their through-bolts, or you might have them tearing out. Also, if you don't have proper stainless lined hawse holes near the cleats, and have to cleat to ones mounted on the capping rail, chafing of both rode bridle and cap becomes an issue. So, for my vessel, what I did with just the single snubber was the best compromise, (no hawse holes) but if your pulpit set-up is not pretty much as robust as that below, the bridle might well be the way to go.
 

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Peter B said:
Also, if you don't have proper stainless lined hawse holes near the cleats, and have to cleat to ones mounted on the capping rail, chafing of both rode bridle and cap becomes an issue.
Click to expand...

I wonder about this. Granted, I have never used cleats up on the rail. The vessels I did the most anchoring on both had very strong pulpits/samson posts/hawse holes/cleats inboard.

But one of the issues I always understood about chafing was that the more distance between the hawse hole and the cleat, the more potential movement and chafe. So I've been thinking that maybe on modern boats it would be a good way to go to have super robust cleats right up on the rail (with a rubbing strake if necessary). Then the lines just come right to the cleat and there is not that "sawing" potential that exists when you have distance between the hawse hole and the cleat or post.

******************

I totally get why samson posts exist - if you think of traditional wooden boat construction, that post goes right down through the deck to the floors and frames. Nothing on the rail could really beat for strength that in traditional construction, could it?

But with modern fiberglass boats. perhaps the hull deck joint area can be equally strong? Some modern samson posts just seem to sit on the center of the deck. Maybe with a backing plate, but still out in the middle of the field, so to speak. In that case, properly backed cleats on the hull deck edge might have some advantages?

That's not to say a samson post on a fiberglass boat can't also be super strong and tie into the hull and bulkheads properly. Just more that I wondered if it was more obvious to have that as "the" strong point on a traditional boat, and maybe modern construction somewhat changes that and things like cleats on the deck edge could even be superior in some ways (chafe).

Of course noodling is a daily hobby at the moment. Might even "over-noodle" with actual boating limited :ermm:
 
I agree with Frosty - vast majority of hawse hole arrangements I've seen appear to increase chafe, not decrease it. It looks shippy, but I think there's a penalty paid in functionality. Plus they are awkward to use. The hawse pipes with integral cleats (an ear on each side) are probably less chafe prone, but do not hold a hitch well because the line does not cross over itself across a cleat which is where much of the strength of a cleat hitch comes from.

The worst arrangement are fairleads over the caprail to an inboard cleat. Many sailboats have a large single cleat in the foredeck with fairleads near the stem. It looks nice, but I can think of no arrangement more prone to chafe.

I personally like large cleats mounted atop a caprail. They are super easy to use when docking and strong. They don't have the cool-look that hawse pipes do, but they work.

Peter
 
Some folks with hawse cleats have reinforcing bars welded on to keep the ears from bending under extreme loads. We’re thinking of doing something like this with ours since it’s proven difficult to install a backing plate for a Samson post. Seems that a solution like this would greatly reduce chafe. Anyone with direct experience?
 

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In general, on a boat like mine with both a samson post and outboard rail cleats (no hawse holes), I treat it as follows: The post is for anything going over the anchor roller, the cleats for anything else (like a bridle). I'm a big fan of the outboard cleats with no chocks, hawse holes, etc. Other than some setups leading to line rubs on the gunwale, it's a much better setup in terms of avoiding chafe. Not much chafe when a line runs through air and then right onto a smooth, stainless cleat.

The post on my deck was added, so it's mounted to the deck, but not down to the hull structure. Mounting is as follows: post sits on the pulpit where it's on top of the deck. Bolts go through the pulpit, through the 3" thick reinforced section of deck under the pulpit and then through a 4 square foot sheet of G10 as a backing plate (which covers nearly the entire reinforced section of deck). The forward bolts on it also go through the reinforced gunwale at the front of the deck (which overlaps the reinforced deck section). And the deck is tabbed to a bulkhead just aft of the reinforced section, so the distance from the hull joint and bulkhead isn't large anywhere in this setup. I figure if it fails, it'll be in the form of tearing the post, pulpit, and windlass all off the deck and leaving a 4 sq foot or larger gaping hole. And ripping out a chunk of deck that large would be pretty hard to do.
 
Flatswing said:
Chain hooks are either expensive (Mantus) Or tend to fall off during launch. I agree with previous post -hard to beat a simple rolling hitch, though personally I bought 20 feet of Dyneema and make my own soft shackles. Simple, cheap and strong plus easy to attach to chain. I change ‘em out every 2 years ‘cause I worry about chafe and they r so cheap to make.
Click to expand...

In the scheme of things, especially when I have my wife or kid helping with the anchoring, spending $100 on a Mantus clamp was a bargain. Knot experts... they're not. (pun intended).

I'd tried the less expensive anchor hooks and they're just more trouble than they're worth. Our bow roller setup doesn't allow for easily maintaining tension while deploying past the bow end. (and I don't have a clear picture that shows the pin across the top side of the roller than causes this).
 
Frosty said:
...(with a rubbing strake if necessary). Then the lines just come right to the cleat and there is not that "sawing" potential that exists when you have distance between the hawse hole and the cleat or post.
Click to expand...

The downside to rubbing strakes is they have to be wide enough, with absolutely no edges, otherwise those the line will saw on those. Our stern has nice-looking rub strakes, but unfortunately they're a bit short and with enough motion a line will walk sideways enough to skip over counter-sunk screws that hold the strake to the surface. This isn't an issue for anchoring, but does present problems when rafting up with others.
 
OldDan1943 said:
The windlass is designed to raise and lower the anchor. The bridle is designed to take the strain off the windlass. Yes, it can be a one arm or a two arm bridle.
Also, the windlass is not designed to pull the boat forward when retrieving the anchor.
Move the boat forward putting slack in the chain then pick up the slack with the windlass. Do again and again until the anchor is well off the bottom then, raise the anchor until it is secure in bow pulpit. Secure the anchor, with a piece of line, to the windlass or something solid and then, take the strain off the windlass.
Click to expand...

BRILLIANTLY PUT! You should write instruction manuals. I’m appalled by how many cruisers don’t attach a safety line to their anchor while underway. Cheap n’ EZ!
 
Sofa King Fishy said:
BRILLIANTLY PUT! You should write instruction manuals. I’m appalled by how many cruisers don’t attach a safety line to their anchor while underway. Cheap n’ EZ!
Click to expand...

Thank you. Finally, I got something correct? Hot daymn.

I am old enough to remember the poorly translated Japanese directions for things such as their crystal radio sets. I do hope my recommendations are just a tad bit better.
 
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