Mainship 400 High Water Alarm

LongJohn said:

In my case the relays were mounted to a bulkhead behind the 12V breaker panel. Six identical relays were arranged in 2 parallel columns about 3" apart. These things were daisy chained together, with primary circuits triggering secondary circuits which triggered the next relay, etc. Just above and between the columns was the faulty relay that controlled the high water alarm. The relay tested good with the volt meter, but wouldn't transfer current to the secondary when 12V was applied to the primary. Until I hit it with the hammer. It also made me feel better.

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Ha! I totally understand wanting to hit it with a hammer. I'm about at that point as well.


For now, I'm going to stick with it as it is, everything functions except that the three primary pumps no longer auto activate when the HW alarm turns on. I prefer it that way.


I've learned a lot here though, and I now have two spare relays in my box. I like knowing how things work (or are supposed to work) on my boat. I have a feeling that another one of those relays may fail in the future.

rgano said:

My bilge pumps on my boats have always been directly wired and never dependent upon the functioning of relays. What purpose do these complicated relays perform other than as potential failure points?

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Now that's a damn good question. I love almost everything about my Mainship, but the wiring/rigging left a lot to be desired.


My guess? They had the cockamamie idea that all four pumps should automatically turn on when the HW alarm triggered, so they came up with this system that would keep Rube Goldberg awake at night. It would be so much simpler and more reliable to have each pump wired directly to the bank, each with a float switch and a manual switch. And a HW alarm wired interdependently of everything else.


It's kind of mind boggling that they used this system. I see a tear out/rewire of the pump system in my boat's future.


Have you checked your boat? Based on John's 34T, my 400T and Baccus' boat all having the square dancing relays I wouldn't be surprised if yours does as well.

And I just noticed that as you're flicking the breaker for the blower, something (a relay) is clicking up by the helm. These things are wiring nightmares!

My recollection is that these 7 relays on my 34T do not effect (affect?) bilge pump operation. Pumps with float switches are always hot through separate breakers under the ER hatch. The relays managed indicator lights and alarm circuits

LongJohn said:

My recollection is that these 7 relays on my 34T do not effect (affect?) bilge pump operation. Pumps with float switches are always hot through separate breakers under the ER hatch. The relays managed indicator lights and alarm circuits

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Whew, that's good to know. I know MS did some dubious stuff on my boat, but pumps through relays would have been the height of folly IMHO.

LongJohn said:

My recollection is that these 7 relays on my 34T do not effect (affect?) bilge pump operation. Pumps with float switches are always hot through separate breakers under the ER hatch. The relays managed indicator lights and alarm circuits

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Thats my understanding.
Not required to make each pump run auto or manual.
They should only control alarm and turning on all other pumps when the high water sw triggers the high water pump.

Bacchus said:

Thats my understanding.
Not required to make each pump run auto or manual.
They should only control alarm and turning on all other pumps when the high water sw triggers the high water pump.

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That's how it seems to me as well. Disconnecting that plug in my pic above essentially disables all of those relays. Everything still works, including the HW alarm, but all of the pumps don't turn on when the HW alarm activates.





It took me a lot of thinking, tracing and experimenting to figure that out, most of it while I was hunched over in the aft section of my ER. It always takes me a long time to puzzle/blunder my way through electrical stuff though, so I guess that shouldn't have surprised me.


Do you guys think I can just remove all of those relays and their wiring now that I'm not using (and don't want) that function? I wouldn't mind getting rid of some of that spaghetti.

Bacchus said:

Doug
You are absolutely correct.
Here's a picture of mine and guess your is the same. Activating sw lights alarm light and activates all four other pumps. Label even states loss of power to pump also activated alarm. You might start by verifying power to pump on auto side. View attachment 105721

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I went out today to check. Flipping that emergency pump switch only activates the 4,000 GPH emergency pump. No other pumps activate.

rgano said:

I went out today to check. Flipping that emergency pump switch only activates the 4,000 GPH emergency pump. No other pumps activate.

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Interesting. That is how my system is working now as well, since I disconnected that plug for the relays. I wonder if they didn't install the relay mess on the pilots?

I have indicator lights on the helm console showing when any of the tree regular BPs activates plus the orange placard with light and manual switch for the emergency (HW) pump. I can go into the cabin at the power panel to set any of the three regular BPs to manual or auto.

Hey Doug,

I have the same problem and I cannot find the location of the high water alarm.. So far I have received suggestions the it might be on the ER after bulkhead or behind the 12vdc/120vac panels. Still have to check that one. If you find another location, appreciate it if you would let me know. Thanks.

Walter

Wpnaef said:

Hey Doug,

I have the same problem and I cannot find the location of the high water alarm.. So far I have received suggestions the it might be on the ER after bulkhead or behind the 12vdc/120vac panels. Still have to check that one. If you find another location, appreciate it if you would let me know. Thanks.

Walter

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Hi Walter. The alarm is tied into the float switch for the high water pump, which is on the aft bulkhead of the ER. But that may or may not be your problem. If you read through this thread you will see that the HW alarm set up on the 400 is quite complex with multiple relays tied into it.

Lots of good info in this thread. I ended up disconnecting the function that activates all of the pumps in the boat when the HW alarm comes on. I personally don’t think that functionality provides any value and causes big problems. But others may disagree.

Dougcole said:

Here's the plug that seems to shut off the "all on" pumps function.

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Doug, I've reread the post above this picture several times, and I'm not exactly sure where the pictured 4 pin plug is located? Is it inside the cover with the relays, behind the 12V breaker center cover, or near the "squawker" (I'm assuming that's the orange panel, switch, red indicator light, buzzer?)? I have an orange panel on the fly and at cabin helm, surprised you wouldn't considering our boats are practically siblings!


I'm mostly interested in getting rid of the parasitic draw from the relays, and would rather not have the middle-of-the-night complexity of that relay system. Do you continue to run this way after a couple of years? Have you bothered to remove the relay mess?

Hi AJ,

Sorry for the delayed response, I haven’t been on the forum much recently.

I do have the panels with the switch and orange light at each helm, but the 4 wire plug is in the ER . My memory says that it is behind the battery switch panel on the aft ER bulkhead. The relays are behind a plastic cover screwed to the same bulkhead just to port of the switch panel. You may have to trace some wires to find it.

I left that plug disconnected and have had zero issues. All of my pumps, float switches and alarms work fine. The only function that was “lost” was having all four pumps come on automatically if the high water pump turns on. I don’t want that function anyway as it adds unnecessary complications.

What’s the point in activating a pump in a compartment with no water in it ? Seems to me that is just creating more battery drain that may be needed by the HW pump in an emergency. If there is water in another compartment the float switch in that compartment should activate the pump. Or you can turn it on manually.

I didn’t remove the relays, just too much wire.

Hope that helps.

Doug

Doug, I've finally gotten the boat off it's cradle and into the water. One of the first projects was disconnecting that plug. It wasn't difficult, and, besides disabling the "all pumps on" functionality that none of us really want, it also accomplished my desire to reduce parasitic draw on the batteries. Using a meter, with the Perko battery switches off, there was about a 1 amp draw on each bank. After disconnecting that plug, it went down to about .1 amp on each. Not sure what the .1 is, but I'm content enough to stop looking. Its worth noting, before disconnecting the plug, when you'd touch the positive lug to the battery, you can hear the relays click behind that white cover right behind the batteries. After disconnecting the plug, there is still a relay that clicks, but, very subjectively, it sounds like fewer relays. So, this plug doesn't necessarily bypass all of those relays, but probably most? That one or two relays, probably associated with the high water pump, are still being energized, and likely part of my .1 amps... Lots of conjecture, but worth noting.


If anyone else wants to make this change, it's not difficult to do. The plug is behind the DC panel, and wasn't difficult to find or unplug. Thanks so much, Doug, for doing the tracing - made my job easy!

TrawlerAJ said:

Doug, I've finally gotten the boat off it's cradle and into the water. One of the first projects was disconnecting that plug. It wasn't difficult, and, besides disabling the "all pumps on" functionality that none of us really want, it also accomplished my desire to reduce parasitic draw on the batteries. Using a meter, with the Perko battery switches off, there was about a 1 amp draw on each bank. After disconnecting that plug, it went down to about .1 amp on each. Not sure what the .1 is, but I'm content enough to stop looking. Its worth noting, before disconnecting the plug, when you'd touch the positive lug to the battery, you can hear the relays click behind that white cover right behind the batteries. After disconnecting the plug, there is still a relay that clicks, but, very subjectively, it sounds like fewer relays. So, this plug doesn't necessarily bypass all of those relays, but probably most? That one or two relays, probably associated with the high water pump, are still being energized, and likely part of my .1 amps... Lots of conjecture, but worth noting.


If anyone else wants to make this change, it's not difficult to do. The plug is behind the DC panel, and wasn't difficult to find or unplug. Thanks so much, Doug, for doing the tracing - made my job easy!

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Hi AJ,


I am glad it worked out for you, and you likely helped me as well.



Whenever I would haul out for a week or two with both battery switches off and no shore power connected I would come close to stoning my house bank. I could never figure out where the parasitic draw was coming from, but you may have found it. I have not hauled my boat or left it for an extended period of time with no shore power or generator running since I disconnected all of those relays. I will be down at the boat next week, I am going to turn off both switches and check my SOC monitor.


Thanks!
Doug



Doug

I found a 4 wire bundle that runs from the HW pump float switch up and behind the breaker panel in the ER. It has a plug in it. When I disconnected that plug all three pumps and the alarm turned off. Yet all four pumps are still operational, even with the plug disconnected, meaning that their float switches are working (when I raise the float the pump comes on) and the manual switches turn them on and off. The only switches that aren't working with the plug disconnected are the two HW alarm/all on override switches at each helm, the same ones pictured above in Baccus' post.

Many thanks Doug for the helpful post. My alarm went off on connecting the batteries for launch and would not stop. Unplugging the connector to the relay's solved the problem although I still have an issue with the high water pump to work on. Two points:
1) On my 2005 400 the plug was located in the grey wiring race so there was no need to open up the main (in engine room) switching unit. The 8 relays are over head on the ceiling just forward of the main switching unit.
2) Inside the main switching unit I located the inline fuse that sends power to the monitoring system. The system required me to disconnect the batteries over the winter which makes occasional charging in the yard more difficult. I may experiment this fall to see if removing it or inserting an off switch eliminates the alarm and pumps and relays drawing down the batteries.
Your post saved me hours of frustration and likely$$$. Much appreciated. Paul

Replacing forward bilge pump 2005 MS 400

I had the same high water alarm issue when we lost power to the dock and the batteries drained. Problem resolved when the batteries were charged up, but not before my forward bilge pump fried. I can't find the forward bilge pump to fix/replace it. Do I have to cut a hole in the floor under the steps?

That alarm will sound whenever one side of the house battery system is disconnected, so makes sense when house batteries aren't connected to shore power, eventually one side will have more juice than the other. The forward bilge pump is under the stairs, at the back of that space against the bulkhead. If you have factory washer/dryer, or a freezer in there, it'll be underneath that.

Hope that helps.
Brian

Thanks Brian. Do I need cut into the floor supporting the washer, or is the pump exposed when I remove the washer?

I've never actually seen a 400 that had the washer/dryer option, so not sure how they mounted it. I doubt there is any additional glassed in platform, though. An educated guess says pulling the washer would probably expose the small sump and the pump.

I want to meet the guy who squeezed that washer in there! Should be fun removing it. Never used it in 8 years, so doubt I'll put it back. Would love the additional storage. Thanks again Brian.

I want to meet the guy who squeezed that washer in there. Should be fun removing. Never used it in the 8 years I've had the boat so I don't think it's going back. (Anyone want a washer dryer?) Thanks again Brian.

Emergency bilge pump disconnect for mainship 430

I know this is an old thread but I had a similar problem on my 2004 Mainship 400 but it corrected itself. However I now have a 2006 MS 430 sedan ( not aft cabin) and I came back last night to the dreaded alarms and all pumps running.
For anyone with a 430 sedan who finds this thread I wanted to let you know the relays and white plastic plugs mentioned in this thread for the 400, those are behind a panel facing outboard just inside the stb fuel tank above the main batteries. My 24vt to 12vt converter charger is mounted to the panel but it’s all removable and easier to access than on 400. I found 7 relays mounted to the inside of the panel. I found several white plugs with multiple wires but only one flat plug but the wire colors were solid yellow, red, Orange and brown with a pink stripe. Disconnecting that solved all the pumps and alarm going on. I will have to hook back up the emergency pump to see as in a hurry I cut the wires but I think it’s going to work. It’s an Idiot setup over complicated for sure.

Just to add further data for future seekers of info on the Mainship HW alarms, while underway in our 07 Pilot 34, we too had the HW alarm go off. After quickly determining that we were not in fact taking on water, we turned back towards home, fortunately only 20 minutes away. The alarm shut down for about 5 minutes, then returned about 5 minutes later. It again shut down after another 5 minutes or so. Once secured to our home dock, I turned off the breaker under the cockpit floor labeled HW Alarm.

The next day I started tracing things down, reset the breaker,, and snapped the pump out of the base. Upon manually activating the HW float switch, the alarm and pump came on. Releasing the float switch turned them both off. After many cycles of this, I began to think the problem had resolved itself.

To facilitate manual activation of the float switch in the future, I unbolted it and rotated it 180 degrees to be able to use the lever on the switch to flip it up and down. While moving the switch to reinstall it, the alarm and pump suddenly came on without the switch being activated. I found that the housing where the wires enter the switch was cracked, and by wiggling the wires I could turn the alarm on and off. I replaced the switch and all seems to be well.

Our Pilot is a much simpler system as it does not have any activation due to loss of power, it is a single helm, and as far as I could tell, there are no relays involved. Phew! I had read this and several other threads dealing with this on TF, and was really dreading what I was getting into.

I went through this same scenario. See the thread "Bilge Alarm" started 6/2/2016. For me, it was a stuck relay - one of seven similar relays daisy-chained together in the alarm circuit.

Better Late than never

Hi all,
I found some very useful diagrams pertaining to the bilge pump schematics, which explain a lot of the functionality. The main thing to take away from this - on the 400 at least is the grouping and purpose of the relays. If you look at the photo of my relays and the grouping on the schematic, at least they are synchronised.

The group of four relays are the alarm relays in the diagram. Their sole purpose is to trigger an alarm if power is lost to the bilge pump. IE the 12 volt supply to the pump itself. These relays use power to hold the relays open (they are normally closed). Holding open stops the alarm from going off. (Power is lost, relay closes and thus you are alerted to the fact power is lost to the pump). NOT to the fact the pump is operating.
This is the 3amp power draw we see on the 400 at least. It is these relays being permanently held open.
They do not trigger the emergency bilge pump. Note the diode in the High water relay panel. This stops the power going from the alarm circuit to the sync circuit.

Okay so now the other three relays in the picture.

As you can see in the main schematic, these relays are unpowered and normally open. So they have no parasitic draw. Their function is to provide that annoying (and perhaps unnecessary), turning on of all the pumps when the high water pump is activated. As I said, disabling this function does not save power. This circuit is controlled with the ORG/RED wire coming from the load side of the high water relay. If you disconnect this wire (after it separates from the circuit to the alarm panels) you have achieved the objective of not turning on all pumps.

For my own vessel l intend to do that but leave the 3amp draw on the alarm relays. I like to know if I lose power to a pump.

See below

apparently the files are hard to read. Anyone who wants a higher res copy please pm me.